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Is it possible to consider yourself progressive and still support the AAA game industry?
- Thread starter choodi
- Start date
Truth.
For someone who claims to be older and having seen more of the world they don't really seem to understand much about what goes on in it. I mean, how could you possibly see all the despicable treatment of people across this planet and then with a straight face pick game developers as being even remotely in the conversation?
Anyway, yes, you can be progressive and support AAA gaming. You can be progressive and support all sorts of things that aren't exactly great. Being progressive isn't about purity tests, it's about improving society by doing more good than harm. If you think boycotting AAA gaming moves you closer to accomplishing this, more power to you. I, personally, think it's an empty gesture that actually accomplishes nothing, but you do you.
You need to actually support policies which are progressive first and pressure your politicians to do the right thing regarding regulation of these entities who enjoy the excesses of crony capitalism. Simply boycotting corps and not shopping at their place of business is a very limited way of rebelling the status quo, especially when it comes to the massive entities that are the worst abusers.
Thank you for actually taking the time to read and consider the questions I posed.
I am not saying one should not vote. I am saying it's the absolute bottom bare minimum. But granted, sometimes I forget there's people who won't do even that. :/
Organize protests and demonstrations. Organize strikes. Or at least, when one is organized, attend. I've attended every single protest in my country against a right-wing government (granted, our "right wing" looks like the US's "left wing", but still).
Indeed you can't afford to pray, because you can't afford to not do a lot more than that.
Well, I am, but I'm indie so I can only take care of myself. :)
There's a ton you can do to fight rampant capitalism:
- Spread awareness among people you know that unionizing protects their interests.
- Spread awareness of why socialized healthcare and social security in general is crucial.
- Attend demonstrations and strikes, even if it hurts your own bottom line.
I could go on and on, but let's focus on the relevant for the thread; there's a ton you can do to support humane working conditions too:
- Research which companies have reasonable work conditions and which don't. Refuse to buy products of the latter and let them know.
- Spread awareness of the above.
- Spread awareness that the current AAA arms race is untenable and is leaving burned out dev husks left and right.
- Stop pushing for photorealism and 100 hours of gameplay.
- Support devs and stand against dev harassment.
- Buy and play AA.
- Buy and play indie.
- Don't complain about ports (they're a perfectly valid measure for companies to recoup development costs).
- Don't fucking paint in a bad light people who bring the topic of AAA exploitation.
When you say "don't sweat the shit you can't avoid" you suggest defeatism because you suggest there are things we are powerless to avoid or not work within. We should especially sweat the things we can't avoid because we're being made complicit.
I agree with everything you said and I found it best to stay out of political threads on this website. Recently there have been a rash political threads and it feels like if you don't agree with the most extreme liberal views, or don't think everyone that disagrees with liberal views is from the alt right you risk angering the mob and risking a ban.
As more and more of these themes gain traction more people start threads like this. If you don't agree with their stance you are supporting problematic people or movements. It makes it hard to be moderate/logical and I'm not talking about some both sides shit either.
The worst thing about it is people generally agree with the changes that need to be made in the industry.
Hmmm. I don't really like talking about my activism as I don't see it as some kind of badge of honour but since you asked, some examples:
USDAW Rep for 3 years while I was at Uni working at Tesco. Represented 4 people in disciplinary hearings alongside our union lawyer.
UNISON rep while working at CLCH in the NHS. Participated & helped organise two local strike actions over working conditions for community care staff.
Part of an estate protection group that did nighttime patrols in 2 estates in Welling when BNP scum were dropping dogshit & burning envelopes through immigrants letterboxes & other harassment.
Pro bono media & marketing work for 2 environmental groups highlighting greenwashing practices in corporate media.
Co-organised a David Harvey reading group which analysed & discussed his writings on Das Kapital.
Worked with immigrant outreach groups notifying workers in construction of their union rights, how to join and do on.
Since moving to Aus & having kids my activism has taken a back seat but I'm involved with a literacy & English language teaching group for anyone who needs it.
I mean I'm not manning barricades & throwing bricks at coppers or hunt dabbing anymore, but your whole 'Ah yeah, bet you don't do anything' thing was pretty presumptious.
This forum isn't anti-capitalist. There are some posters who are but this forum is mainly liberal TINAs when it comes to it.
This is again that worldview where everything spins around the USA. There are AAA games being made in countries where unions are even mandatory by law, and the difference between working in big vs small teams depends more on the particular company than any generalization.
Of course.
you can't be progessive about every single thing you buy/eat/consume unless you end up without any stuff.
Though i would be ok with laws protecting industry workers even if that means longer dev cycles/lower budgets
Plus if you don't buy them that could mean bad news for developers as well when their quality games won't sell they get fired
you can't be progessive about every single thing you buy/eat/consume unless you end up without any stuff.
Though i would be ok with laws protecting industry workers even if that means longer dev cycles/lower budgets
Plus if you don't buy them that could mean bad news for developers as well when their quality games won't sell they get fired
And it was already said many times but AAA development is wayyyyyyy above one of the worst conditions/exploitative. The salary, benefits and all are way above many industries and the side where development really picks is crunchy but even then, this is nothing compared to what many people have to pass in the world where they receive nothing and their conditions are terrible. It's really nothing comparable.
You promote worse exploitation by using your phone and laptop OP.
Exactly.
This entire post is what's known as the Relative Privation fallacy.
Just because you can find an example that's worse than the one presented doesn't validate the presented case.
I basically lumped them in together and my wording was messed up. Apologies
As a game developer I can tell you that I have been treated worse at Indy dev than at a big "evil" AAA studio. At least they pay you.
It's something funny. I support games that im interested in. If it happens to be a non triple a game, i will still buy it
Game development is exploitative, but it's only particularly bad relative to the relatively small world of bourgeois, white-collar work in developed countries. But it's only if you live in a bubble where that's the only kind of work there is that you think it's the worst thing out there, in a world full of conflict minerals and factory farming. And if you can live the sort of rigorous lifestyle that keeps you away from all of that, more power to you, but if you're only concerned about work overload on educated, largely wealthy game devs while you walk around in sweatshop-made clothes and eat meat from pigs that lived their whole lives in cages where they can't turn around, that feels like you have some moral blind spots.
The game's industry is bad and need to improve, but if buying products made in the game industry is your red line for progressivity,
then we all stopped being progressives a long, long time ago.
The game's industry is bad and need to improve, but if buying products made in the game industry is your red line for progressivity,
then we all stopped being progressives a long, long time ago.
Are any consoles made by ethical companies that pay workers living wages? What do you all play games on?
Isn't it just simple good old supply and demand?
Generally game developers are people working at something which is their passion, and which they'd suffer a lot of shit for? The logic of which is that the conditions are going to be pushed down because your competitor worker will happily suffer even worse just for a chance to do their dream job.
Like I said, it's not exactly an easy career to break into.
That's not exploitation, it's just the market at work.
Generally game developers are people working at something which is their passion, and which they'd suffer a lot of shit for? The logic of which is that the conditions are going to be pushed down because your competitor worker will happily suffer even worse just for a chance to do their dream job.
Like I said, it's not exactly an easy career to break into.
That's not exploitation, it's just the market at work.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, therefore I don't have to do anything to make it better. We're all guilty, and being able to shift blame in that manner matters more to me than making a difference.
If everyone actually moved and organized in a way to encourage change, rather than throwing their hands up in the air and using the "chinese factory workers" whataboutism, things could actually get done and conditions improved. But it doesnt, and it won't, so I'll keep encouraging AAA to remain the same through my apathy.
If everyone actually moved and organized in a way to encourage change, rather than throwing their hands up in the air and using the "chinese factory workers" whataboutism, things could actually get done and conditions improved. But it doesnt, and it won't, so I'll keep encouraging AAA to remain the same through my apathy.
Except I'm not someone with extreme liberal views and haven't once said anything about how you must agree with my particular thoughts on this topic or be branded alt-right. In fact, I said up front in my OP that I thought it would make an interesting topic for discussion, nothing more.
I actually lean right if you must know.
But, you know, don't let fact get in the way of you making naive presumptions about my views.
I'm not American, so again don't presume to know my stance.
Well, I never proposed a boycott, so again don't presume to know my stance and stop putting words in my mouth.
You have spent the entire time presuming a whole bunch of garbage about who I am, how old I am and what my view is.
But, you know, go right ahead and tell me again how the gaming industry is not exploitative of its workers. It is a fact that the industry is exploitative and, while indentured workers in China might have it worse, it doesn't mean that the industry is not exploitative in comparison to contemporary and comparable businesses and industries.
You have yet to address any of my questions though, so please, either share your thoughts or stop trying to derail the thread on one point from my OP.
Well, those same developers you say are being exploited won't be able to survive unless people are buying the games they make.
Also, where did this idea that the AAA game industry is one of the most exploitative in the world? The quality of life developers enjoy under the top publishing houses is unparalleled by most other industries.
There are problems, no doubt, but developer exploitation in the AAA space isn't anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be.
No one is denying that exploitation of workers happens in the AAA game industry, like it does in any. However OP has missed the mark completely in saying it's one of the most exploitative industries in the world. It isn't, not even close and as I've said, on average the QoL at a big publishing houses like EA, Activision, Ubisoft, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo etc. is far better than other industries.
Also, where did this idea that the AAA game industry is one of the most exploitative in the world? The quality of life developers enjoy under the top publishing houses is unparalleled by most other industries.
There are problems, no doubt, but developer exploitation in the AAA space isn't anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be.
No one is denying that exploitation of workers happens in the AAA game industry, like it does in any. However OP has missed the mark completely in saying it's one of the most exploitative industries in the world. It isn't, not even close and as I've said, on average the QoL at a big publishing houses like EA, Activision, Ubisoft, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo etc. is far better than other industries.
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Uh, no. It's not meant to invalidate, it's just to show that the issue isn't alarmant as how OP presented comparing to real exploitative work and conditions.
Have a good day.
I stand corrected, that is all quite impressive. However keep in mind that your post was nearly identical in rethoric to that used by people who do nothing of the above, and just mean to shut down discussion on any and all social issues they don't care to think about.
Case in point, my SO and I coordinate cat rescues and adoptions, and if we had a dollar for every time someone posted "how can you waste time doing this when there's starving children in the world", who themselves do absolutely nothing for either, we could build an entire cat shelter.
"it's juts the market at work when people get paid shit and work 70 hours a week for a year and ends up losing their family"
Libertarians and believing in the absolute justice of the free-market is like astrology for men.
Which is what a Relative Privation argument always tries to do (or the reverse).
Even the way you phrased it demonstrates this. "...isn't alarmant as how OP presented comparing to real exploitative work and conditions." (Emphasis is mine)
This suggests that because there are more exploitative conditions, the exploitative conditions presented by OP aren't "real". And that's the Fallacy of Relative Privation.
So yeah. It's an invalid means of argument.
Life is full of contradictions. I'm not sure I'm willing to give up playing AAA games to send the message that these publishers need, sadly.
Boycotting big devs is only going to lead to people just losing thier jobs. Cutting payroll is always the first thing companies do when they lose money. I
Pretty much. Gotta pick your battles.
Pretty much. Gotta pick your battles.
You aren't "progressive" because you attach yourself to every supposed progressive campaign and organize your life around supporting or deplatforming good or bad things. That's untenable and smacks of religious and philosophical ideals. If we were to abandon every industry that used exploitative labor practices or polluted the environment or donated to the GOP or whatever pet issue you have... you'd be living in a wine pot wandering around Athens with a lantern in smelly tattered clothes living off the goodwill of sympathetic non-progressives looking for any other honest person and finding none.
Yes, you can be "progressive" and still support these industries. You simply have to take opportunities to help do good where you can and draw your own lines in the sand that work within your life.
If you want to stop supporting the AAA industry, then please do so, however you cannot look at another gamer who buys RDR II and decry them as not ideologically pure.
Yes, you can be "progressive" and still support these industries. You simply have to take opportunities to help do good where you can and draw your own lines in the sand that work within your life.
If you want to stop supporting the AAA industry, then please do so, however you cannot look at another gamer who buys RDR II and decry them as not ideologically pure.
Voting with your dollar is interesting. It feels good to me generally. But then, there is a larger system at play. I saw this video recently and thought it was very challenging to me. In a few spots it challenged various values and actions.
It's 20 minutes long.
In the first 5 it talks about Walmart. He says it's not the fault of the consumer. Walmart has enough money to outlast everyone else. I guess the problem is the system that says how Walmart exploits people is okay. It passes on the savings of that exploitation to us, many of whom have fewer hours and less pay, meaning one place with low prices for all our stuff is useful. Don't look down at underpaid people who are trying to save time and money.
Then it talks about how Amazon does terrible things. But it makes things possible that aren't without Amazon.
It's 20 minutes long.
In the first 5 it talks about Walmart. He says it's not the fault of the consumer. Walmart has enough money to outlast everyone else. I guess the problem is the system that says how Walmart exploits people is okay. It passes on the savings of that exploitation to us, many of whom have fewer hours and less pay, meaning one place with low prices for all our stuff is useful. Don't look down at underpaid people who are trying to save time and money.
Then it talks about how Amazon does terrible things. But it makes things possible that aren't without Amazon.
The amount of energy you're repeatedly putting into posturing probably doesn't help. On the one hand, a question like this is important to consider, especially for enthusiasts. I think everyone already does, on some level. On the other, when I read over your opening post, it raised an eyebrow more than once for how it felt more like a subversive critique than a well-meaning curiosity.
Watching you repeatedly characterize the community as [X] or [Y], complete with lamentations about how "completely" predictable the negative reaction is makes me pretty confident that's exactly what it is.
Unless we own one of these companies and can directly improve lives for the workers then there's not a lot we can do to stop the machine as a consumer.
I think just by knowing there's a problem and voicing those concerns to the developers in a constructive way when possible will help.
Also we need to support unionization when that happens.
I think just by knowing there's a problem and voicing those concerns to the developers in a constructive way when possible will help.
Also we need to support unionization when that happens.
If you're really interested in debate, care to actually defend your "AAA game development industry is one of the most exploitative of workers in the world" nonsense?
Recognising basic economics and being inclined to respect the free choices of grown men and women doesn't make you a libertarian.
If people want to claim developers are uniquely exploited they need to make a case.
And they need to explain why it's a really really difficult field to get into.
To me the logical answer is that any bad conditions are a quid pro quo. A person really wants to work at a particular job and is willing to make sacrifices.
I mean, why shouldn't they - in principle?
The average developer is working in an industry they love. I fucking don't. I bet hardly anyone does.
Oh, and btw, I just served a week's ban for 'sexism', so maybe you should be careful how you phrase things ;)
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There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, more power to you if you're able to find and purchase products that don't abuse workers somewhere down the line, but I imagine that's very rare.
Doesn't this invalidate the whole topic?
Should the topic be changed to
"Is it possible to consider yourself progressive and still support the Indie game industry?"
As in every human activity there are people(/companies) that follows the rules and regulations and those who cheat.
There are those who promise their workers more than they deliver.
"Is it possible to consider yourself progressive and still support games from companies that you know does not follow up on promises to their developers?"