Is incompetent Game Journalism okay?

[CenturionNami]

So there's recently been a rather large blowback against game journalism in regards to one of their staff...being a little shall we say, somewhat lacking in skill in some videos. The most infamous being Polygon's Doom gameplay

Another recent example is PCgamers article on the new DMC game, which also received alot of negative attention
https://www.pcgamer.com/devil-may-c...g-robot-arms-and-frustrating-camera-controls/
Not only does he falsely claim a few things, it's also made clear there very bad at the game (there comment about there being no musical changes like DMC:Devil May Cry, but there is...if you play well) and they blamed the game for his lack of skill.

Earlier examples include Destructoid giving Dark Souls a mediocre review...despite admitting they haven't even finished the game...which they did for Demon Souls too.
https://www.destructoid.com/non-review-why-i-couldn-t-finish-demon-s-souls-151008.phtml

Of course, I don't think everyone has to be skilled at video games to enjoy video games or honestly be a super gamer, but I think it's valid to expect people whose profession is playing video games, and writing about them for a living to be relatively skilled at playing video games.

What do you think?

 

[Imran]

Are people who aren't skilled at these games banned from buying them

If not, do you think there should be someone of their skill level writing about the game as well or is that bad

 

[balohna]

The perspective of bad game players (not sure it makes them incompetent journalists, personally) is relevant to some extent. But probably best not to hand reviews to people that couldn't possibly evaluate the game.

I'm actually okay with there being a "it's too hard, I couldn't finish it" Demons' Souls review out there. It's an experience a lot of consumers would also have with it, and it's good someone researching the game can come across it and factor it into their decision to purchase or not.

 

[Deleted member 873]

if companies want to release perfect gameplay, produce the video themselves. this type of raw experience makes things fun. I've seen multiple videos of people playing my favorite games in a really bad way, but it makes sense. They are different than me, played other titles. It's *not* an obligation to be good at every single video game (that you're probably touching for the very first time)

I wouldn't even call it "incompetent". For the company? Yes. But journalism shouldn't be about pleasing a company.

 

[KZXcellent]

When it comes to Previews they don't need to be very good. The goal isn't to make a review of the game are show impressive skills, the point is to play the game and write/talk about it.

When it comes to reviews I think that someone should finish the game. The idea of someone giving a game a low score and not finishing is wrong to me.

 

[Deleted member 1413]

A journalist doesn't need to be good at playing games, just reporting on them.

You'd expect some level of proficiency from a reviewer, tho

Some games can also be too hard for some people that have been playing games for decades, their view point has merit as well.

For example, I think the new megaman demo is quite bad due to it's archaic feeling difficulty. I'm sure it's a breeze to some but that doesn't change my personal experience

 

[JusDoIt]

Should hoops journalists be able to dunk?

Should art critics know how to draw?

 

[Silky]

I couldn't care less, enthusiast gamers seriously need to get over games media writers not being as good as themselves at video games, as well as gettijg over the idea that playing """hard""" game somehow makes you better than other people

Thread reads like a post from the DMC discord lmfao

 

[Richietto]

Someone who reviews games need to have a certain level of competence. Like if you can't handle two analog sticks and you review an FPS your opinion is compromised. Otherwise its whatever.

 

[MC_Leon6494]

The Destructoid example is 100% bullshit, and they should never have released the review without beating the game. I don't think it would have changed their overall score, and I don't think that is really relevant at the end of the day. The author put a ton of time into the game, clearly enough where they could judge the gameplay and larger story concepts.

But something like a journalist not being amazing at a new game in their "first 30 minutes" should be excused. We don't know the full extent of that person's experience with the games, maybe they played on a different system and don't use x input device often, or some other bullshit. Maybe they haven't played Doom since 2016 and have spent 1,000 hours in a different FPS that feels and controls a lot differently, etc.

I have more issues with false claims and incompetent reporting than i do with incompetent abilities in-game.

 

[Deleted member 1413]

Should hoops journalists be able to dunk?

Should art critics know how to draw?

Click to shrink...

Doesn't really seem equivalent.
That's akin to asking reviewers to be good at making games.

Probably closer to having a book critic be good at reading.

 

[Imran]

Also, like

Not beating a game isn't incompetent game journalism, that's incompetent Dark Soulsing.

 

[Clay]

When it comes to Previews they don't need to be very good. The goal isn't to make a review of the game are show impressive skills, the point is to play the game and write/talk about it.

When it comes to reviews I think that someone should finish the game. The idea of someone giving a game a low score and not finishing is wrong to me.

Click to shrink...

How many games have you played that suck for most of their playtime before unexpectedly becoming great?

 

[Holundrian]

But does it make you feel like spiderman?
Bad writing srsly bothers me more. When I read that one I was like so that's the professional level of reviews... huh.
On the skill level I don't really mind there should be a variety of reviews catering to different audiences.
That said it's not like there actually is that much of a variety given I feel like the majority of bigger outlets review games under extremely similar lenses so there's that too.

 

[Silky]

That Destructoid example is garbage too

This thread is wack

 

[MagicPhone]

Lack of skill doesn't bother me at all. If it's a review or preview, I don't need them to be super knowledgable about the game or genre either, as I don't like to gatekeep new voices. I just need a real perspective.

Podcasts/previews will bother me if I feel like the person did zero homework or prep for it. Like if you played the game at a preview event, you should remember or have notes for simple questions like when it comes out, what it costs, or any of the other common questions that come up on a podcast.

I think some of the stuff OP is describing is actually growing pains of the industry, as people who were comfortable in other facets like writing or reporting, have to suddenly get good at playing on video/camera/streams.

 

[Dyle]

The video game industry is an extremely diverse field of media that can be covered from countless angles. It is impossible for any outlet to always have someone who is good at a certain genre playing a game in that genre, nor would it be ideal because it would effectively silence an important perspective for the many players who aren't familiar or skilled with a certain genre. The only arguments in favor of making fun of or getting rid of games writers who demonstrate low skill levels in games are GG tier nonsense.

 

[JusDoIt]

Probably closer to having a book critic be good at reading.

Click to shrink...

Fine.

Does a dance music critic need to know how to dance?

Can you judge whether a dance track is doing what it's supposed to when you don't have no rhythm?

 

[Breqesk]

A video game journalist isn't 'incompetent' if they aren't particularly good at games, what the fuck.

 

[Kinthey]

If it's to the point where they end up reporting misinformation it obviously becomes a problem

 

[Deleted member 873]

Also, like

Not beating a game isn't incompetent game journalism, that's incompetent Dark Soulsing.

Click to shrink...

Exactly.

Honestly, people only care about this at all because of scores. Reviews come from a personal POV. No one would be mad at that if it didn't "hurt" their MC score, which is sad.

 

[Meffer]

Should hoops journalists be able to dunk?

Should art critics know how to draw?

Click to shrink...

In the case of game reviews, yes I think they should be able to play well. There are games that were reviewed badly simply because the reviewer's skills were poor.
There were game journalists that complained that the DMCV demo was lacking in music in fights because they played terribly. The music amps and adds vocals as you get higher ranking in fights but they were not aware of this info.

 

[Imran]

The OP is also kind of a mess of different points. Is this about reviews or not? The Polygon video wasn't from a reviewer. DMC5 hasn't been reviewed and only one person, period, got a SSS rank in the demo across Gamescom and PAX. Itsuno said very few people on the dev team have done it. I have played a shitload of DMC and other character action games in the past and I got whacked by the boss a few times.

The "it's missing music" thing is embarrassing for the writer because he didn't ask a question he could have gotten an answer to, but does any actual fan care that he wasn't good enough to get an S-rank?

 

[Punchline]

this argument that game critics apparently need to be a master of every video game they review is honestly ridiculous

 

[mas8705]

I'm surprised that you didn't mention the infamous example from last year.



Now as for the question itself. You could say it varies depending on case or situation. It isn't like you can be the best at everything, but then at the same time, people online aren't going to hesitate to point out if you have little to no idea what you're doing, thus questioning one's actual ability to cover a game properly. Examples vary, but overall, there needs to be a bit of looking into for a game beforehand since the last thing you want to do is go into a game that you have little to no idea (and thus can't really provide the proper coverage that is expected of you).

 

[ZeroX]

Being bad at games and not beating them would put them closer to the average player, not further away.

If they're willing to put corrections up if they state something factually inaccurate then it's fine. It's not good, but I think people are a little over dramatic with how bad it is.

 

[Imran]

I'm surprised that you didn't mention the infamous example from last year.



Now as for the question itself. You could say it varies depending on case or situation. It isn't like you can be the best at everything, but then at the same time, people online aren't going to hesitate to point out if you have little to no idea what you're doing, thus questioning one's actual ability to cover a game properly. Examples vary, but overall, there needs to be a bit of looking into for a game beforehand since the last thing you want to do is go into a game that you have little to no idea (and thus can't really provide the proper coverage that is expected of you).

Click to shrink...

Dean Takahashi doesn't review games.

 

[Gaga Dead Aunt]

Game journalism as in working conditions and the like? Yeah, important.



Review scores? Don't really care. That's not "journalism".

 

[Thorn]

this argument that game critics apparently need to be a master of every video game they review is honestly ridiculous

Click to shrink...

Nobody is asking them for mastery, just basic competence and not...that Doom or Cuphead video.

 

[Kirbivore]

So let me get this straight, you made this thread not because we have a thread where Kotaku did not get a woman's story about a tragic easter egg in Spider man, leading to additional hardships, but because someone sucks at games and they didnt score a game the way you liked?

 

[Arttemis]

I really disagree with this. Games are intended to be fun. If you're so entrenched in gaming media and publications that the opinions from someone of lesser skill bothers you, you clearly aren't relying on that person's writing to form your opinion.

Earlier examples include Destructoid giving Dark Souls a mediocre review...despite admitting they haven't even finished the game...which they did for Demon Souls too.
https://www.destructoid.com/non-review-why-i-couldn-t-finish-demon-s-souls-151008.phtml

What do you think?

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But they didn't have it a mediocre review. They gave it a good review. It's literally spelled out in the text of the review and in their review rubric. That snippet of your post just makes me wish every publication would abandon numbers in reviews.

 

[Jintor]

Thread title should more accurately reflect that 'incompetence' is not about the quality of journalism in this instance but about the quality of game playing

also, like, nah. as long as you know where they're coming from

 

[Imran]

It's weird that people think the gaming community is full of gatekeepers that want to climb over each other to prove they're better. I have no idea where they'd get that idea.

 

[Toadofsky]

Having a decent amount of knowledge and understanding of the mechanics in a genre would certainly help their critique. I don't think the majority of the community expects them to know every in and out of genres (it's unreasonable to expect that) and it's usually just the loud obnoxious types on social media think they should be supreme masters of every game they play.

But then again, some have written articles saying it's just easier to watch a YouTube Let's Play than to actually play through the game, now THAT is ridiculous and further drives an argument against them that they don't play games.

 

[Silky]

Nobody is asking them for mastery, just basic competence and not...that Doom or Cuphead video.

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What do you define as basic competence and why does that matter

 

[treasureyez]

Glad to see this thread about "incompetent journalism" is actually yet another opportunity rehash the two most infamous examples of poor gameplay from major gaming outlets, neither of which were presented in the context of anything resembling journalism or critique. They're largely unedited gameplay videos, and considering the context of both it's fair to say that the players were not very familiar with the games.

Both games are obviously being played poorly here, but what has this got to do with journalism? And what are some of your favourite examples of quality gaming journalism, OP?

(And as a complete aside, I don't think you can tell much from watching footage of someone's first interactions with a game. I know that there are some games I just totally struggled to grok at the start that I became reasonably good at later.)

 

[Punchline]

Nobody is asking them for mastery, just basic competence and not...that Doom or Cuphead video.

Click to shrink...

in both cases the person did not review said game

like i dont understand why this keeps coming up again and again when its clear that they arent putting people that dont get the game they're playing on a review of that game

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

No, game reviewers shouldn't have to possess skills in games to be able to write in their field. It does help the range of their coverage, but it should be noted that someone being unable or uninterested to beat a game might actually ring true with other players, such as the Destructoid example in the OP. Dark Souls is one of my personal top games of all time but there are many elements to that game that could easily be a turn-off to people, and I think that's a valid narrative that deserves to exist and be valued and only makes Souls games more distinct in the larger landscape of games.

Who cares if it curves a metascore up or down -- what matters is what the person actually personally felt from the game, because you could overlap with any single reviewer. I personally didn't like Nier Automata all that much from a gameplay perspective and couldn't finish the game, I'd say my experience attempting to play it was a 6/10, but I don't tell people they're wrong to love and cherish it -- I think it's damn awesome that people absolutely adore that game. I happened to be on the outlier there, and I want my take away to matter -- though not necessarily be taken as gospel for all future players of the game.

 

[Toadofsky]

It's weird that people think the gaming community is full of gatekeepers that want to climb over each other to prove they're better. I have no idea where they'd get that idea.

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Because they only pay attention to the loudest people who say that they should. If you quit giving that a spolitght people would pay attention to it less.

 

[Bradford]

I think most people who are interested in games and advocating for them whether through reviews or full on critique should at least try to learn everything they can and be experts, at least knowledge-wise, in them. I don't know if I necessarily need that to translate into pure skill -- that being said, I certainly know information about mechanics in games I'm not good at once I look into them, and I'd hope a reviewer could acknowledge that even if they are not good at the game, there is depth and interesting things going on in that design that they may be overlooking due to their skill level, and that those things deserve attention even if they have to do some extra research to figure the mechanics out.

However I don't really know how much I'd refer to a simple gameplay video or quickie review to be Journalism so much as a consumer facing evaluation. Games "Journalism" as a larger field is actually filled with some really great stuff -- like that article about sexism at Riot, Polygon's Oral History series, Schrier's book about development, et cetera. We're getting more high brow content like that too, it's just that reviews themselves might be a little lower brow for a different audience, with a different intent. Even if I don't love that, I can't necessarily fault the entire industry for it.

 

[saenima]

I'd rather have quality writing and intelligent discourse than whatever passes for gitting gud these days.

 

[JosephL64]

I don't care whether or not a journalist is a top tier gamer.

All I care is for them to be able to finish the game, even if that means barely squeezing by.

Others might argue that reviewers don't have to see the end of the game to give a proper review, but that's at least what I care for...then again to be honest, I tend to enter games blind. I rarely ever get burned; I know games that I'll enjoy at a glance since I've been doing it for so long afterall.

 

[ghostcrew]

Game journalism as in working conditions and the like? Yeah, important.

Review scores? Don't really care. That's not "journalism".

Click to shrink...

Glad to see this thread about "incompetent journalism" is actually yet another opportunity rehash the two most infamous examples of poor gameplay from major gaming outlets, neither of which were presented in the context of anything resembling journalism, critique. They're largely unedited gameplay videos, and considering the context of both it's fair to say that the players were not very familiar with the games.

Both games are obviously being played poorly here, but what has this got to do with journalism? And what are some of your favourite examples of quality gaming journalism, OP?

Click to shrink...

Yeah this. I don't know if it fits the dictionary definitions or whatever (I'm sure someone will correct me if needed) but I feel like complaining about the Polygon Doom video or the Cuphead demo video isn't anything to do 'journalism'. Most writers at videogame sites are critics. Creating some Doom video content isn't journalism. You're complaining about someone not being very good at playing with an electronic toy.

I feel like 'incompetent journalism' is really a stronger accusation.

 

[More_Badass]

You don't have to be good at games to write about them or understand the design principles behind a game. Being able to write one's experience with a game, good or bad, matters more than how well you play

You don't even have to finish a game to review it. If a game is so bad or broken or off-putting that you can't or won't finish it, that's a valid and valuable perspective, in the same way that a movie being so terrible or boring that a reviewer walks out is still a valid perspective.

Not finishing a game but presenting your review like you did is a whole different story.

 

[Imran]

I don't care whether or not a journalist is a top tier gamer.

All I care is for them to be able to finish the game, even if that means barely squeezing by.

Others might argue that reviewers don't have to see the end of the game to give a proper review, but that's at least what I care for...then again to be honest, I tend to enter games blind. I rarely ever get burned; I know games that I'll enjoy at a glance since I've been doing it for so long afterall.

Click to shrink...

Even that is up to the outlet's policies. Some insist on finishing the game. Others don't. Seek out what fits your personal criteria best.

In some cases, what does finishing a game mean? Is it seeing end credits? Some reviews stopped at ending A of Automata, some reviews stopped at the credits of Dragon Quest XI despite there being a huge chunk after it. Did you finish Mario Odyssey if you didn't do the dark side of the moon? Did you finish Yakuza Kiwami 2 if you didn't do the Majima chapters in the main menu? Is Assassin's Creed Origins done if you didn't do the DLC? Is Spider-Man done if you didn't unlock the entire map?

It's not always cut and dry.

 

[dancingphlower]

As long as you're a good writer and you can articulate your thoughts in an informative manner, I'm good. Just be sure to fact check and not spread misinformation.

 

[Cursed Mega Man Mask]

Incompetent Journalism in general sucks, man.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

Should hoops journalists be able to dunk?

Should art critics know how to draw?

Click to shrink...

These comparisons don't really work when reviewers are evaluating and part of an interactive medium.

As for reviews, it's ultimately a subjective experience. While there are certainly best practices involved (and giving up on a game feels like an obvious one) there's no innate objective qualifications to deploy. That doesn't really excuse factual errors created by bad journalism, though.

 

[Redfox088]

Incompetence is not okay in any profession imo. Incompetence in general is tolerable, however. No one chooses to be incompetent. I'd like to think so, anyway.

 

[Apollo]

If a journalist presents as fact things that are incorrect, the article should be amended. That goes for any journalist, regardless of what they cover. But I don't think there's any obligation for a games writer to be "skilled", especially considering that's a pretty nebulous term, even more so with the rise of easier difficulty levels. Provided they play a game enough to have formed an opinion they feel strong enough about to share, I'm cool with it.