In light of "When the looting starts, The shooting starts" and the 100,000 US Covid Deaths, what's the thinking on Biden is just as bad as Trump?

[Cordy]

I'll be real.

Yes, Biden is way better than Trump.
No, Biden isn't perfect nor is he what we truly need as a president.

But he's better than Trump and he's what we have right now to get things on track. He's like an intermediate president before a major one drops. He's like I don't know, he's like the Tekken 6 in between Tekken 5/DR and Tekken 7. He ain't perfect but he's better than Trump.

Trump's gonna be THE bad president we all reference when we talk to our kids and grandkids in the future. Our parents and relatives always got one president they reference just to trash and that's this dude. They got a good one and a bad one and well, this dude's that bad one. We gotta get him out of office.

 

[Deleted member 64609]

Accelerationists see minorities as acceptable casualties. It's a fact.

I remember from 2004-2012, Ron Paul always got a shit-ton of love online, which never translated into actual votes come election time.

Some things never change...

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I still have no idea what the appeal was there.

 

[discotheque]

I guess the plan is to make life as bad as possible for the lower class by sitting by as facists and ultracapitalists get elected? And then after enough of them have died, or get imprisoned or deported, hopefully the rest will be forced to join the socialist revolution out of desperation? Sounds kind of evil.

 

[TheRuralJuror]

Cool so were still shaming people if they have a personal reason for not voting for Biden? Great stuff. Way to win people over to your side on that one.

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if these people don't give enough of a damn about me and mine that they're going to sit this shit out, the hell with em. They clearly never had our backs to begin with. Hurts to say that, but what the heck is it going to take to get people to do the bare minimum to help others?

 

[Deleted member 33533]

Nah miss me with that shit. "Vote blue no matter who" is the real position of privilege.

Click to shrink...

This article is nearly a year old and the context is completely different now. I didn't vote for Biden in the primary. He wasn't my choice when this article was written but I don't know what you expect me to do at this point.

I don't know what you expect a black person like me to take away from this article by a white woman preaching that my vote is privileged while fully admitting that her life probably won't change much. I'm especially taken aback that you're using it as some way to say I'm really the privileged one. This is the reason I usually stay out of these political threads.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

I agree. I don't find that to be a compelling reason to vote for Biden, however.

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I don't know how people say this, I really don't. I support your decision obviously, but it boggles my mind.

 

[McScroggz]

sure bidens better... but supporting a third candidate and giving them enough support to be taken seriously would probably be better for the country in the long run t this point

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Trump being defeated is unequivocally the best thing for the health of the country. Literally and metaphorically.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I have a compelling reason to vote for Biden.

He won't support and call for murder.

 

[Seraph84]

You and I both know voting 3rd party in the US is not a viable option.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, maybe not yet. But things could change in the future. Full disclosure I'm not voting third party in November - I'm not voting at all. I would've voted for Sanders, but I sure as hell am not voting for Trump nor Biden. Sanders WAS the compromise candidate. Now there are no good options so I won't be voting in November. I can't in good conscious vote for any president that doesn't at the very least support drastic justice system reform and medicare for all.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Yeah, maybe not yet. But things could change in the future. Full disclosure I'm not voting third party in November - I'm not voting at all. I would've voted for Sanders, but I sure as hell am not voting for Trump nor Biden. Sanders WAS the compromise candidate. Now there are no good options so I won't be voting in November. I can't in good conscious vote for any president that doesn't at the very least support drastic justice system reform and medicare for all.

Click to shrink...

If you don't vote, you're voting for the winner.

 

[ryseing]

Yeah, maybe not yet. But things could change in the future. Full disclosure I'm not voting third party in November - I'm not voting at all. I would've voted for Sanders, but I sure as hell am not voting for Trump nor Biden. Sanders WAS the compromise candidate. Now there are no good options so I won't be voting in November. I can't in good conscious vote for any president that doesn't at the very least support drastic justice system reform and medicare for all.

Click to shrink...

No downballot races you want to support?

 

[My Blue Heaven]

I think in light of everything that has happened as of late it would be shortsighted and foolish to pretend that Biden is anywhere near as bad as Trump, even though candidly they are both dementia grandpas that I would prefer not be the leader of the country. I will vote for Biden just so we can have something resembling a stable hand on the wheel.

 

[Karateka]

Trump being defeated is unequivocally the best thing for the health of the country. Literally and metaphorically.

Click to shrink...

in the short term, yes.
But in the long term do you want to be picking between trump and biden forever?

 

[ArrogantBastard]

If you don't vote, you're voting for the winner.

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Let it go, they are above you, they have principals and they didn't get the compromise candidate.

Fast forward four years, I won't vote for Sanders cause he isn't the compromise candidate. I'll vote for people that push the bar in the direction I support, regardless of the fact they might not remotely represent my values. Cause I know the other side of that bar is voting for keeps.

 

[Deleted member 64609]

Yeah, maybe not yet. But things could change in the future. Full disclosure I'm not voting third party in November - I'm not voting at all. I would've voted for Sanders, but I sure as hell am not voting for Trump nor Biden. Sanders WAS the compromise candidate. Now there are no good options so I won't be voting in November. I can't in good conscious vote for any president that doesn't at the very least support drastic justice system reform and medicare for all.

Click to shrink...

But if Sanders was the nominee he'd be running as a Democrat, but you said Democrats and Republicans are equally bad, but you're not voting and don't think others should, but third party candidates are ok, but you posted MLK, but you're an accelerationist, but

 

[Seraph84]

No downballot races you want to support?

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Voting isn't the only way to support a candidate FYI. It's not even the best. You can canvass, donate money, text/phone bank, etc. I did all of these for both Sanders and AOC, and will continue to support downballot candidates I like.

 

[Seraph84]

But if Sanders was the nominee he'd be running as a Democrat, but you said Democrats and Republicans are equally bad, but you're not voting and don't think others should, but third party candidates are ok, but you posted MLK, but you're an accelerationist, but

Click to shrink...

Centrist democrats and republicans are not equally bad IN GENERAL, but they absolutely are when it comes to the way they'd deal with an actual left movement with traction and power. And Sanders is not a democrat in my eyes, he's a socialist. He just ran as a democrat because, as many have pointed out, third parties are not viable in the USA.

When did I ever say I was an accelerationist? I'm not voting for Trump, so does not supporting Biden somehow make me an accelerationist in your mind? Jesus christ that's an absurd standard you've set.

 

[McScroggz]

Yeah, maybe not yet. But things could change in the future. Full disclosure I'm not voting third party in November - I'm not voting at all. I would've voted for Sanders, but I sure as hell am not voting for Trump nor Biden. Sanders WAS the compromise candidate. Now there are no good options so I won't be voting in November. I can't in good conscious vote for any president that doesn't at the very least support drastic justice system reform and medicare for all.

Click to shrink...

In the hopes of not sounding too abrasive this attitude is both immature and harmful to our democracy as well as directly harmful for people that aren't privileged with waiting for their preferred candidate. You cannot reasonably draw the conclusion that a centrist democrat president is as harmful as the evil that is Trump and the administration that he creates. That is not a reasonable argument.

The irony that you use a MLK quote to justify not voting for Biden when the alternative is Donald freaking Trump is the most insane "not seeing the forest for the trees" delusion I think I've ever witnessed.

I genuinely hope you self reflect on this.

 

[TheRuralJuror]

I'm guilty of it myself sometimes, but when the same poster has nothing to share but the same tired articles about Hillary losing and feels the need to keep reiterating that they aren't voting for Biden for whatever reason while repeating the same few viewpoints, maybe leave them be and move along rather than crap up the thread.

 

[Shroki]

="ryseing, post: 35396583, member: 567"]
And Clinton/Gore won the popular vote but lost in the EC.

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Gore lost to a more affable candidate after Clinton ended his presidential career with a sex scandal and impeachment. In order for Hillary Clinton to lose, she needed to suffer nearly 30 years of Republican smear jobs, multiple personal scandals that dominated news cycles, a catastrophic divide in the Democratic party, Russian interference, widespread gerrymandering and a last moment body blow from Jim Comey.

If 22,000/2.8 million votes went Clinton's way in Wisconsin, 11,000/4.5 million votes went Clinton's way in Michigan and 44,000/6 million votes went her way in Pennsylvania, Hillary was the President. That's like half of one percent of voters in three states that Obama won.

I hate the defeatists on the left.

 

[Deleted member 64609]

When did I ever say I was an accelerationist? I'm not voting for Trump, so does not supporting Biden somehow make me an accelerationist in your mind? Jesus christ that's an absurd standard you've set.

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Agreed. I choose not to legitimize it by voting. The lower the voter turnout, the better imho. Eventually we'll reach a point where people will point to that and say, "wtf, only 10% of the population votes for president? And oh shit, it's the richest 10%? We need to do something about this!"

Click to shrink...

Somebody else post that on your account?

 

[lush]

Y'all are wasting your time, the poster already revealed their hand in between selectively quoting posters:

Agreed. I choose not to legitimize it by voting. The lower the voter turnout, the better imho. Eventually we'll reach a point where people will point to that and say, "wtf, only 10% of the population votes for president? And oh shit, it's the richest 10%? We need to do something about this!"

Click to shrink...

Completely detached from reality putting their own vanity above all else. An eligible voter that was never going to vote, yawn. There are voters within the electorate that actually plan to participate in the process, that's where our focus should be.

I sincerely wish them nothing but the best in their GOTV efforts for Jill Stein.

 

[Seraph84]

Why do Biden supporters think they are entitled to the votes of leftists? It honestly baffles me. A candidate has to earn every vote, you don't get to shame people into voting for your candidate just because the alternative is worse. That's absolutely shit logic and not how campaigns work in the real world. Get a grip.

 

[Deleted member 64609]

I'm guilty of it myself sometimes, but when the same poster has nothing to share but the same tired articles about Hillary losing and feels the need to keep reiterating that they aren't voting for Biden for whatever reason while repeating the same few viewpoints, maybe leave them be and move along rather than crap up the thread.

Click to shrink...

You're right.

 

[XMonkey]

Community organization and solidarity. A movement has to be built from the bottom up, what's it going to take for you folks to realize this top-down bullshit doesn't work, and hasn't worked for the past 50 years?

Click to shrink...

I actually don't think a top down approach is what we need, but ok. That's why I'm asking what your plan is to get M4A passed in Congress. Thats why it's not a problem for me to cast a vote for Biden because ultimately he's going to sign whatever Democrats pass. But they aren't going to get anything passed if we don't control the White House, too.

At the end of the day your organizing for M4A is done in order to influence Congress members, because they are the ones who have to pass the laws you need. Which is what we all should be doing. But I believe the best practice is to work within the system. So good luck with the not voting thing I guess.

 

[TheRuralJuror]

You're right.

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Hate to be that way, but it's pretty transparent at this point.

 

[Deleted member 21411]

I mean men and women are risking their lives right now with police targeting in massive waves black people but sure make this about people not liking a rapist.

 

[Mr. Keith]

The stories and ideas people come up with the deflect from just being angry their choice lost is so frustrating.

You don't need some deep backstory and a manifesto to say you don't want to vote for the person who beat your candidate.

 

[ryseing]

Voting isn't the only way to support a candidate FYI. It's not even the best. You can canvass, donate money, text/phone bank, etc. I did all of these for both Sanders and AOC, and will continue to support downballot candidates I like.

Click to shrink...

I am fully aware of other methods of political participation, but at the same time you can do all the other things, and you should do those things- doesn't mean jack if you don't show up to the ballot box.

 

[Seraph84]

I actually don't think a top down approach is what we need, but ok. That's why I'm asking what your plan is to get M4A passed in Congress. Thats why it's not a problem for me to cast a vote for Biden because ultimately he's going to sign whatever Democrats pass.

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If that were true, I would strongly consider voting for Biden. However, it's sadly not the case.

 

[Sandfox]

But if Sanders was the nominee he'd be running as a Democrat, but you said Democrats and Republicans are equally bad, but you're not voting and don't think others should, but third party candidates are ok, but you posted MLK, but you're an accelerationist, but

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Yeah, it makes no sense lol. Not worth arguing.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

Why do Biden supporters think they are entitled to the votes of leftists? It honestly baffles me. A candidate has to earn every vote, you don't get to shame people into voting for your candidate just because the alternative is worse. That's absolutely shit logic and not how campaigns work in the real world. Get a grip.

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I'm not trying to shame you. I'm trying to explain to you the policies that he supports are far more in line with what you support than Trump. Why is that so difficult to understand. In the same vein, you said Sanders WAS the compromise candidate...no? Why should I support Sanders, he isn't my unicorn. Why are you trying to shame me just because the alternative is worse.

I'm serious, for one second, assume Sanders is the nominee. I don't support him because he isn't liberal enough, I don't want to compromise. What is your argument now?

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Why do Biden supporters think they are entitled to the votes of leftists? It honestly baffles me. A candidate has to earn every vote, you don't get to shame people into voting for your candidate just because the alternative is worse. That's absolutely shit logic and not how campaigns work in the real world. Get a grip.

Click to shrink...

It's a particular American attitude built out of the bipartisan system.

But yes it's unreasonable and also deeply unproductive

 

[Chindogg]

While I feel Biden is the worst option for Democrats, the last three months has shown me clearly that Trump needs to go regardless of the cost.

I'll reluctantly vote Biden then protest and push for more progressive measures once the poison clears.

 

[lush]

It's a particular American attitude built out of the bipartisan system.

But yes it's unreasonable and also deeply unproductive

Click to shrink...

Going through this primary on this forum and thinking you're talking to "Biden supporters." Lmfao, Biden wasn't even the second choice for the vast majority of this forum's demo. Slipping all the way to dropping the "entitled to leftist voters" card is laughable while talking about a third party vote being viable in 2020.

 

[Seraph84]

I'm serious, for one second, assume Sanders is the nominee. I don't support him because he isn't liberal enough, I don't want to compromise. What is your argument now?

Click to shrink...

My argument is a very simple ethical one. Healthcare, decent food, and basic shelter are human rights. A candidate who moves us closer to providing those things to everyone is worthwhile, and a candidate who doesn't isn't. I don't believe Joe Biden will move us closer to providing those three things to all Americans, especially given his comments to his donors that "nothing will change" if he's elected.

For the sake of argument, let's set aside the issues of food and shelter for now, and just focus on healthcare. In 2018, 8.5 percent of Americans, or 27.5 million people, did not have any health insurance at any point during the year. Millions more are underinsured. That to me is an ethical problem as much it is a political one. That is (was) my number one issue this election cycle. And when Biden said he'd veto an M4A bill, he lost my vote.

Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2018

This report presents data on health insurance coverage in the United States based on information collected in the 2018 CPS ASEC.

www.census.gov

Who's underinsured in America, in 4 charts

The U.S. uninsured rate and has declined since the Affordable Care Act took effect in 2010, but the percentage of underinsured U.S. adults has grown, according to a survey brief from the Commonwealth Fund released Thursday.

www.advisory.com

 

[Shroki]

Centrist democrats and republicans are not equally bad IN GENERAL, but they absolutely are when it comes to the way they'd deal with an actual left movement with traction and power. And Sanders is not a democrat in my eyes, he's a socialist. He just ran as a democrat because, as many have pointed out, third parties are not viable in the USA.

When did I ever say I was an accelerationist? I'm not voting for Trump, so does not supporting Biden somehow make me an accelerationist in your mind? Jesus christ that's an absurd standard you've set.

Click to shrink...

I know we should really stop arguing with you, because you're all over the place, but I have to point out how absurd it is to position socialist and democrat as opposing or even related concepts.

The democratic party is just a club. That's it. It's not an ideology. Capitalists and socialists may both register, and Bernie did.

 

[denseWorm]

Serious double standards.. I believed the West Wing. You know, CJ Craig getting in deep doo-doo for using the word "relieved" when it obliquely implied that the president might be relieved to "send American troops into battle" in one of many possible outcomes to a situation.

I think Sean Spicer made it clear enough from the off that this administration utterly fails to live up to that fantasy in any way. Supporters thereof have revelled in this rogue Whitehouse, very happy with recorded brags about sexual assault, happy with attacks on the hitherto sanctified free press, happy with a republican government that threatens to take all power from the states (until recently the very antithesis of "big government" fearing firebrand republicans)...

... But if Joe Biden gets a 30 year old sorta-accusation of sexual assault, based not on audio recording but on heresay, it's stacks on the mill?

I think democrats are pretty naive, they kind of think that most Americans would rather have a West Wing and will vote accordingly.. they should be actively trying to stop gerrymandering, and they shouldn't let Trump say Biden as a flawed individual without jumping on him for 40-odd years of scandal, bankruptcy, infidelity, etc.

Re: OP... There is no equivalence between ubermegadouche Trump and rich white man from another generation Biden. And the democrats should be making that clear as day.

 

[Mr. Keith]

The idea that you could support someone so passionately you would work for their campaign but when it loses you throw up your hands and just let the world your candidate fought so hard to prevent come to pass is insane to me.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

"Biden supporters" lmao, we've gotten to

Going through this primary on this forum and thinking you're talking to Biden supporters. Lmfao, Biden wasn't even the second choice for the vast majority of this forum's demo. Slipping all the way to dropping the "entitled to leftist voters" card is laughable while talking about a third party vote being viable in 2020.

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i don't care if he was their least favourite pick.

This idea of if "you;'re not voting for x you're voting for y" is ridiculous on face and would never fly if someone was canvassing for a candidate in different context. People being alienated is not a them problem, telling people you think they're unreasonable and moving on is fine unless you actually want them to vote in which case it's deeply unproductive.

 

[El Bombastico]

The idea that you could support someone so passionately you would work for their campaign but when it loses you throw up your hands and just let the world your candidate fought so hard to prevent come to pass is insane to me.

Click to shrink...

Not insane, just juvenile. I had the exact same mentality...back when I was 12.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

My argument is a very simple ethical one. Healthcare, decent food, and basic shelter are human rights. A candidate who moves us closer to providing those things to everyone is worthwhile, and a candidate who doesn't isn't. I don't believe Joe Biden will move us closer to socialism, especially given his comments to his donors that "nothing will change" if he's elected.

For the sake of argument, let's set aside the issues of food and shelter for now, and just focus on healthcare. In 2018, 8.5 percent of people, or 27.5 million, did not have health insurance at any point during the year. Millions more are underinsured. That to me is an ethical problem as much it is a political one. That is (was) my number one issue this election cycle. And when Biden said he'd veto an M4A bill, he lost my vote.

Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2018

This report presents data on health insurance coverage in the United States based on information collected in the 2018 CPS ASEC.

www.census.gov

Who's underinsured in America, in 4 charts

The U.S. uninsured rate and has declined since the Affordable Care Act took effect in 2010, but the percentage of underinsured U.S. adults has grown, according to a survey brief from the Commonwealth Fund released Thursday.

www.advisory.com

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And one, using your argumentation, could easily say he is the compromise candidate and doesn't move it far enough. Again, what now? The point is, he lost, he had no chance of earning a plurality of the vote. So, what are you left with? Someone that will move it in the direction of the things that we support or someone who will drag it in the opposite direction. Personally, I'm going to half-heartily support Biden, I understand your grievance, I do.

My son is five months old, I want him to have an exceptional future. I worry about things that I didn't really think about before. I really am sorry Sanders lost, but I cannot sit out, even though I live in Texas and I know my vote is more than likely meaningless. I hope you believe me when I say I support the same policies, I hope we get there.

 

[XMonkey]

If that were true, I would strongly consider voting for Biden. However, it's sadly not the case.

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He's not vetoing anything that Democrats manage to pass in Congress. Because if M4A managed to pass Congress it means it did so with the support of the moderates in the party (which would be harder to do than getting Biden's support!) and Biden would be raked over the coals by his own party (and rightfully so) for vetoing any Democratic bill from Congress.

If you think otherwise I don't know what to tell you.

Besides all of that, Medicare For All/Single-payer isn't the only way to structure a universal health care system so if your goal is truly healthcare coverage for all then I'd hope you wouldn't tie yourself to just this one horse.

Anyways, I've said all I want to say so I'll leave it at that. I hope you consider voting in November, if not for President, then for all the other "bottom up" positions that are on a ballot.

 

[lush]

My argument is a very simple ethical one. Healthcare, decent food, and basic shelter are human rights. A candidate who moves us closer to providing those things to everyone is worthwhile, and a candidate who doesn't isn't. I don't believe Joe Biden will move us closer to socialism, especially given his comments to his donors that "nothing will change" if he's elected.

For the sake of argument, let's set aside the issues of food and shelter for now, and just focus on healthcare. In 2018, 8.5 percent of Americans, or 27.5 million people, did not have any health insurance at any point during the year. Millions more are underinsured. That to me is an ethical problem as much it is a political one. That is (was) my number one issue this election cycle. And when Biden said he'd veto an M4A bill, he lost my vote.

Click to shrink...

As someone that was going through chemo during my first foray on my own health insurance while Republicans were trying to repeal the ACA with zero replacement, what planet are you living on? I was literally asked at the hospital how much of a down payment I could afford as I went in for my orchiectomy in my mid 20s and here you are chanting both sides/I hope turnout is as low as possible so the system blows up. One party has zero qualms about killing protections for those with preexisting conditions and booting millions off of their health insurance. No fucking shit healthcare should be a right, meanwhile the one other viable party is saying YOLO during a fucking pandemic after running on a fuck you, got mine healthcare plan after a decade. Wake the fuck up. You sound like someone that's never had to actually confront the ramifications of your political apathy, and by that I mean voting since according to you that's unimportant as to actually having an effect on the system.

 

[lush]

i don't care if he was their least favourite pick.

This idea of if "you;'re not voting for x you're voting for y" is ridiculous on face and would never fly if someone was canvassing for a candidate in different context. People being alienated is not a them problem, telling people you think they're unreasonable and moving on is fine unless you actually want them to vote in which case it's deeply unproductive.

Click to shrink...

If elections have zero effect on your life/well-being, more power to your moral superiority in not participating. I wish I was as fortunate, alas, I was born in the Southeastern US.

 

[Mr. Keith]

If Medicare For All is something you can be so passionate about it would keep you out of elections, I would strongly encourage you to vote for Joe Biden. The Republicans gaining the Supreme Court would ensure you will NEVER see it.

 

[Cipherr]

Not insane, just juvenile. I had the exact same mentality...back when I was 12.

Click to shrink...

Exactly this. I would wager the vast vast majority of people who vote arent 100% in lock step with their candidate. Im sure its no coincidence that the older voters are more reliable. By that point you have probably realized your perfect candidate won't ever exist; and that this system was never designed for you to find and vote for your political soul mate. And it never will be.

 

[Seraph84]

He's not vetoing anything that Democrats manage to pass in Congress. Because if M4A managed to pass Congress it means it did so with the support of the moderates in the party (which would be harder to do than getting Biden's support!) and Biden would be raked over the coals by his own party (and rightfully so) for vetoing any Democratic bill from Congress.

If you think otherwise I don't know what to tell you.

Click to shrink...

So your argument is that Biden LIED when he suggested that he'd veto M4A, but I should support him because he's trustworthy to advance a progressive agenda as president? Despite the fact that under Obama (with Biden as VP), latinx children were put in concentration camps, wealth inequality continued to worsen, and we never got healthcare for all Americans or any of the other progressive rhetoric Obama's campaign marketed?

 

[Deleted member 56306]

So your argument is that Biden LIED when he suggested that he'd veto M4A, but I should support him because he's trustworthy to advance a progressive agenda as president? Despite the fact that under Obama (with Biden as VP), latinx children were put in concentration camps, wealth inequality continued to worsen, and we never got healthcare for all Americans or any of the other progressive rhetoric Obama's campaign marketed?

Click to shrink...

You may have answered this already but how exactly would you have handled the sort of obstructionist stuff Obama was dealing with in terms of progressive issues?

 

[fossi8]

do you think this Minneapolis sad case + the COVID situation will truly jeopardize Trump reelection?