I feel like COVID fundamentally changed the world, but most of the world is in denial.
- Thread starter entremet
- Start date
From a US perspective, while the change is obvious, many in the states don't want to believe anything fundamentally changed because at the end of the day this is a very conservative country. Even if the majority of voters vote democratic, their views skew conservative when compared to other Western nations and that means a fear of societal change. That's why Americans are INSANE about masks. It was the most visible, in your face societal change of the pandemic and therefore the most hated part.
A thought experiment I have from time to time is this:
If you were transported to 10 years in the past, how long do you think it would take for you to notice without looking at a calendar? In 2013 the iPhone design for smart phones was already ubiquitous so when it comes to most consumer electronics you probably wouldn't notice an immediate tell. Politics are definitely more crazy than back then, we were about a year off from the worst of the anti-SJW backlash and gay marriage was still a little ways off but other than that I feel like the world more or less looks identical to today. Music tastes have shifted somewhat, but most popular music from 2013 would not be particularly out of place today.
If you were transported to 10 years in the past, how long do you think it would take for you to notice without looking at a calendar? In 2013 the iPhone design for smart phones was already ubiquitous so when it comes to most consumer electronics you probably wouldn't notice an immediate tell. Politics are definitely more crazy than back then, we were about a year off from the worst of the anti-SJW backlash and gay marriage was still a little ways off but other than that I feel like the world more or less looks identical to today. Music tastes have shifted somewhat, but most popular music from 2013 would not be particularly out of place today.
Remembering the time when B-Dubs made a very insensitive post towards one of my partners earlier this year and it made her cry. I'm not ever going to let that go. (And if you're wondering the "It's so frustrating" part was in context of awful trans news going on in the US. He felt the need to show little class with "You're frustrated?")
nonsense. we do not have any reliable long covid or post viral treatments, and more and more people are suffering from and will continue to get long covid until we have a large chunk of our population disabled. will that change anything? doubtful. this thread demonstrates just as many others that humans are inherently selfish creatures who cannot see past their own eyes when it comes to societal issues.
just in the past few months 2 of my friends have been disabled in one way or another by "living their lives" and not healing from their covid infections. they can't even get into the few long covid rehab programs that do exist because they were not eligible for pcr testing and those programs require it. they cannot get any kind of answers for if or when they get better. one of them has developed arthritis in their joints, and the other can barely get around without getting tired and dizzy. there are millions of people like them worldwide, and there will be millions more. enjoy your bars and mask-free travel.
I see long covid talked about a lot here (and on Reddit) but really can't find much when it comes to reliable information or research on the topic. It doesn't help that people online say their long covid symptoms range from like…difficulty breathing to heat intolerance.
I've personally never met someone with long covid and most of the people I know have had covid so I'm curious to read what's out there if you have anything.
Completely agree with this. Tbh a lot of staff here are the same.
This is an extremely bad faith interpretation of b-dubs post that has now completely derailed the thread. Congrats.
I'm fully vaccinated and still mask everywhere. I caught Covid at the end of June, and have just spent the last two weeks voiceless, barely being able to stand up without vomiting. This is the most sick I've been in my adult life.
I'm only now getting back to a functional state, still dealing with the cough, and it blows my fucking mind that people have just given up on this. I had a coworker that said he didn't even know people were still getting covid. People don't want to hear about it anymore, the losses have been accepted and they want their normal back. Complete selfishness and denial.
I'm only now getting back to a functional state, still dealing with the cough, and it blows my fucking mind that people have just given up on this. I had a coworker that said he didn't even know people were still getting covid. People don't want to hear about it anymore, the losses have been accepted and they want their normal back. Complete selfishness and denial.
Yeah it's complete nonsense. A whole lot of "follow the science" folks really don't want to follow the science anymore because they disagree.
Covid was always going to become endemic. Lockdowns were to prevent the collapse of our healthcare system, which mission accomplished. Mask efficacy (especially for non-fitted, under-6-donnings n95s which make up 99+% of masks I saw during the mandates) is greatly overstated and compared to the vaccine is a weak tool for covid prevention.
Do I wish more people got vaccinated? Sure. But at this point, Covid is a part of life - get vaccinated, get your boosters, and protect yourself from infection by avoiding crowds if you're particularly at risk. It's never going away, and for the most part seems to be well-treated by vaccines and treatments like Paxlovid. For the good of everyone's mental health the world has moved on, the risk of Covid is no longer worth the sacrifice.
um yeah that's literally the problem. it's a novel disease which the world did not take the time to properly study and understand before we all went back to business as usual. that's one of the things OP is talking about as being one of the fundamental changes.
and it's all on full display in this thread alone. not least because of that one community manager.
you're gonna need to cite several sources before that comment has any merit.
if you define science to mean "only things I agree with" then ofc you're right.
lol nothing was detailed. that community manager demonstrated the exact way in which covid emboldened people to wear their selfish anti-social behaviour even more on their sleeves. which is literally one of the ways in which the world was fundamentally changed. "fuck you got mine" got legislated into right wing influenced laws ending lockdowns.
Post-COVID Conditions
Some people experience new or ongoing symptoms lasting weeks or months.
www.cdc.gov
This post is full of things that aren't supported by facts or science. Nice edit. Paxlovid works less effectively with the mutated variants we've created. The vaccines are necessary and I've had 6 of them thus far, including 2 of the newer ones. However their antibodies are out of your system within months and you're left without that same level of protections. Oh, and practically fucking NOBODY is getting vaccinated anymore, and many major world governments have made it either more expensive or basically impossible to get more of them. Good tool for covid protection there, makes sense that we can't get them anymore! Masks are always there, and they've been working fine for decades at infection prevention. Is the fit mask (per your edit) better? Yup. Is a full blown filtered respirator best? Undoubtedly. Are the blue cloth masks providing protection still? Yes, even if it's much shittier. Are a normal non-fitted N95 or KN94/95 going to work for most people from a societal perspective, if we actually wore them? Yup. There is *zero* sacrifice with masking and proper air filtration in our societies. But selfishness and attitudes like these means we'll never get there and we're kicking our proverbial cans of problems down for the future to deal with.
Last edited:
yep. and i say that as someone in japan who was still masking everywhere until a few months ago. this country did better than almost anywhere else despite a total lack of lockdowns — at least until omicron hit, at which point nothing could be done.
you can't really compare the specific circumstances (geographic/cultural/etc) of individual countries directly, but that's the whole point. we all live on the same planet and there was no scenario in which this virus wouldn't eventually infect almost every human on it.
where the science is clear is that N95s are still good for individual protection and vaccines are still very effective at preventing serious illness.
i believe it's a total fantasy to imagine that a 9-month lockdown in any country would've helped get rid of this thing, let alone be worth the societal cost that it would entail, but i would love to read a credible study that says otherwise.
the countries that did best were the ones that closed their borders and had clear public health guidance. it was very clear early on that any top-down measures would work as delaying tactics rather than an eradication strategy.
lmao nope you don't get to say "I believe," assert an opinion as fact, and then demand sources from me to change your opinion. it works exactly the other way around:
you said very confidently and without evidence that science does not support the position. you show me your sources to back that up.
also uh that's how lockdowns were framed in the first place. this is not some profound insight from you that "dunks on liberals with facts and logic," this is literally what science said all along. that lockdowns were a way to slow things down in order to develop vaccines, lockdowns were never presented as the way to eradicate anything. if anything is bad faith, it's what you just did there.
Covid changed very little about the world fundamentally. H1N1 (Spanish Flu) was a far worse plague at a time, infecting 1/3 of the world's population and killing 50m people (most of which were fully healthy and in the prime of their life) in comparison to Covid's 6m (comprised mostly of people with co-morbidities or immune deficiencies). It had a large compounding effect on the world's economy due to tying into WWI, and yet it's consigned to a footnote in history that most alive today know very little about.
Covid was a tragedy, but it was never going to change the world outside of its early days as a novel zoonotic disease whilst we tried to mitigate its effects whilst awaiting vaccines and treatments.
And for what it's worth, it is business as usual. Cases are the lowest they've ever been despite society returning to BAU. Same with deaths and hospitalisations. There is no reason right now to treat it any differently to the other vast swathes of respiratory illnesses.
Covid was a tragedy, but it was never going to change the world outside of its early days as a novel zoonotic disease whilst we tried to mitigate its effects whilst awaiting vaccines and treatments.
And for what it's worth, it is business as usual. Cases are the lowest they've ever been despite society returning to BAU. Same with deaths and hospitalisations. There is no reason right now to treat it any differently to the other vast swathes of respiratory illnesses.
Accusing a complete stranger of having privileges they do not have is extremely rude. Many people who are immunocompromised and have chronic health conditions have become completely jaded as to how the pandemic did nothing to change how our healthcare system operates and how they are treated by society at large.
"Or maybe it didn't fundamentally change the world and you wish it did?" is a completely valid statement when 1% gained even more wealth during the pandemic and in the US access to life-saving healthcare is still out of reach for the most vulnerable and/or is regressing in many ways (abortion, gender affirmation treatments).
what's extremely rude is deliberately misinterpreting a disagreement with what was said as a personal attack. that's what that community manager did. the comment they got very anti-social in response to was calling out a privileged take. the comment was not accusing the community manager of *being* privileged. the community manager chose to misrepresent what was said and decided to become righteously indignant and rude in their response.
yes that sounds like a fundamentally negative lasting effect of covid, thank you for pointing that out.
are you talking about the same H1N1 that was having an outbreak, a major world event killing people, as recently as 2009? surely 2009 is not a footnote in history?
well, i kind of think the burden of scientific proof is on the people suggesting it would've been a good idea to lock people in their homes for nine months, but okay!
just to be clear, i think lockdowns were a totally reasonable plan early on to do whatever could help slow the spread when healthcare systems were strained. it was never imposed here in japan, but people definitely weren't going out a whole lot in march/april 2020 so the effect was likely similar at that point. in hindsight, though, it absolutely is not clear that enforcing them as policy had any significant effect anywhere. look at the death rates in places like japan and sweden relative to their surrounding regions, as well as the clearly ineffectual second lockdown in the UK in late 2020.
in the US in particular, there is little correlation between lockdown policy and overall death counts pre-vaccine. florida's death rate in 2020 was nearly 20% lower than california's. again, every state is demographically and geographically different, so direct comparisons are difficult — obviously new york's terrible results can largely be attributed to its denser population, for example. but the evidence would be clear if the data was clear, and it simply isn't.
happy to hear counterpoints but i don't know how anyone can take a global view of this pandemic and believe that any single lockdown could've been the thing to make a difference, let alone that enforcing one for almost an entire year would have been a good idea.
you have chosen to completely ignore the fact that hospitals were melting down. it's interesting how that one factoid alone blows apart this idea that lockdowns did no good at all. people were being triaged in makeshift tents in the parking lots of hospitals before lockdowns started. why are you not factoring that in?
that "slowing things down," effect. the "flattening of the curve," the point was to slow the spread enough so that vaccines could be developed without hospitals being completely destroyed. show me a source that shows lockdowns did not have that intended effect.
did you not read the sentence where i said
or?
i was responding to someone who said it would've been a good idea to impose a lockdown for the whole of the 2020 calendar year. there's no scientific case for that.
I did miss that, you are right.
where I lived the second lockdown happened because hospitals had reached breaking point again after a new variant emerged. and then the third lockdown happened when another new variant emerged.
so even your train of thought says that the second and third lockdowns were valid. that's good.
Specifically talking about the 1918 outbreak.
Though I'm struggling to see the relevance, since clearly the 2009 outbreak didn't fundamentally change the world either. Most people in the thread wouldn't even know much about the 2009 outbreak despite being alive for it.
In the US at least, it feels like it's only stoked the flames of polarization, bringing out the absolute worst in so many people while also showing there are decent people out there (as outnumbered as they are). I saw so many people actually do the right thing in spring 2020 - the small southern town i was living in was completely quiet for a few weeks, with even the deepest red republican wearing a mask and doing the bare minimum. That didn't last long before the right-wing outrage machine kicked off.
I stopped going to half a dozen takeout places (my sole source of joy in the early pandemic days lmao) because they literally wouldn't serve you if you wore a mask. I broke off relationships with a significant number of folks because shit, this was literally a life or death situation and they chose death for other people, including many immuno-compromised friends of mine that were terrified to just be outside. I saw people I went to high school with straight up die because they were so militant about being an awful person, going so far as to have "COVID parties" just to be an asshole. Most of my close friends and family did the right thing and I saw so many locals try and keep people informed but it's just a losing battle.
And that's just my local anecdotal shit. Y'all already know the awfulness everywhere else.
It's cemented my unfortunate worldview that people are generally selfish and will perform mental gymnastics to justify why they don't have to think about other people.
I stopped going to half a dozen takeout places (my sole source of joy in the early pandemic days lmao) because they literally wouldn't serve you if you wore a mask. I broke off relationships with a significant number of folks because shit, this was literally a life or death situation and they chose death for other people, including many immuno-compromised friends of mine that were terrified to just be outside. I saw people I went to high school with straight up die because they were so militant about being an awful person, going so far as to have "COVID parties" just to be an asshole. Most of my close friends and family did the right thing and I saw so many locals try and keep people informed but it's just a losing battle.
And that's just my local anecdotal shit. Y'all already know the awfulness everywhere else.
It's cemented my unfortunate worldview that people are generally selfish and will perform mental gymnastics to justify why they don't have to think about other people.
At the least, it showed that the expression avoid it like the plague is used wrong.
Other than that, it's for historians to figure out.
Other than that, it's for historians to figure out.
well, i think it's case by case and hopefully people will look at the data with clear eyes for use in future pandemics. not all lockdowns were the same. the second one in the UK was completely bungled, for example, with incoherent rules and pointless timing, and ultimately seemed to have very little effect. most authorities apparently had no idea of what was going on outside their borders.
i'm not against lockdowns, i'm against the "if only we'd locked down for <insert period of time> we could've eradicated this thing!" mindset.
There are lots of good studies on the effects of lockdowns and the prevention of deaths during the early pandemic. The X factors for Florida (early on) versus other states were both the ability to be outside during cold weather everywhere else and data reporting.
Lives saved and lost in the first six month of the US COVID-19 pandemic: A retrospective cost-benefit analysis
In the beginning of the COVID-19 US epidemic in March 2020, sweeping lockdowns and other aggressive measures were put in place and retained in many states until end of August of 2020; the ensuing economic downturn has led many to question the wisdom of the early COVID-19 policy measures in the...
journals.plos.org
Lockdowns saved many lives and easing them is risky, say scientists
Lockdowns imposed to curb the spread of COVID-19 have saved millions of lives and easing them now carries high risks, according to two international studies published on Monday.
www.reuters.com
Lockdown Delays Led to at Least 36,000 More Deaths, Models Find (Published 2020)
All 50 states have begun to reopen to some degree, but rules vary. Scientists say they see progress on the path to developing a vaccine by next year.
And there are definitely studies that compare the places hardest hit early on - the intentional cities of the US - before anything was known about effective lockdowns and then social distancing and masks and eventually vaccines to the late comer states that played lightly with public health measures pre-vaccines. This was known even by June of 2020.
Remembering the time when B-Dubs made a very insensitive post towards one of my partners earlier this year and it made her cry. I'm not ever going to let that go. (And if you're wondering the "It's so frustrating" part was in context of awful trans news going on in the US. He felt the need to show little class with "You're frustrated?")
It's always a good sign when specific top members of the admin team are specifically pointed at as reasons for why queer people and POC are leaving Era in droves when they pull shit like in that screenshot, acting like banning HL was like pulling teeth and taking out the anger on trans people (especially after the Cyberpunk debacle), or coming in this thread with the most "fuck you got mine" take imaginable for immunocompromised people. Then if you call it out, it always goes like
View: https://giphy.com/gifs/El5zMzvHYYDOvhweHD
I get that currently, things are much closer to what was "normal" than they were in 2020. But speaking as someone who lives with an immunocompromised person, there's been new precautions and anxieties that we never had before COVID. I wish that people still wore masks if they felt sick and still came to work, for example! But no, if you wear a mask and go anywhere, you'll get the occasional trashy people giving you dirty looks, or even worse, if a store has a "NO MASKS ALLOWED" sign for some asinine reason.
Odd sentiment considering how many people are suffering from mental health issues now that "the world has moved on". Almost like trying to force everyone to move on without addressing the actual underlying issues isn't the best strategy.
As Social Lives Resume, a Mental Health Crisis Continues: Institute for Policy Research - Northwestern University
A national survey conducted by IPR political scientist James Druckman confirms the pandemic’s lingering impact on mental health for all Americans, but in particular for young adults: While 18- to 24-year-olds say they are going out more, their overall levels of depression have not fallen as much...
www.ipr.northwestern.edu
Most employees say their well-being has worsened or stayed the same — but their bosses disagree: new survey
"This shows that executives are disconnected from the reality of the workforce," said Dan Schawbel, the managing partner of Workplace Intelligence.
www.cnbc.com
Rise in psychological distress in young adults - survey
Researchers say the pandemic and cost of living crisis have contributed to worsening mental health.
www.bbc.com
Are to implying that these mental health crises were caused or worsened by letting people go outside again?Odd sentiment considering how many people are suffering from mental health issues now that "the world has moved on". Almost like trying to force everyone to move on without addressing the actual underlying issues isn't the best strategy.
As Social Lives Resume, a Mental Health Crisis Continues: Institute for Policy Research - Northwestern University
A national survey conducted by IPR political scientist James Druckman confirms the pandemic’s lingering impact on mental health for all Americans, but in particular for young adults: While 18- to 24-year-olds say they are going out more, their overall levels of depression have not fallen as much...www.ipr.northwestern.eduMost employees say their well-being has worsened or stayed the same — but their bosses disagree: new survey
"This shows that executives are disconnected from the reality of the workforce," said Dan Schawbel, the managing partner of Workplace Intelligence.Rise in psychological distress in young adults - survey
Researchers say the pandemic and cost of living crisis have contributed to worsening mental health.
No, I'm saying that the pandemic has aggravated these types of problems and because we as a society are so eager to pretend we didn't just go through a collective traumatic experience that fundamentally changed our psychology (ie the premise of the thread), things aren't getting better, despite often appearing so on a surface level because we have festivals and bars again.
Sorry for replying over 24 hours later but just wanted to respond and let you know that this helped. I felt pretty embarrassed about baring out my deepening cynicism and it feels like your response helped me recognize that and I didn't initially know what to say. A simple act of just saying something—kinda proves your response, I guess.
Thank you. I'll try to keep myself in check.
I took a step back on this response and slept on it in order to not react. However, it honestly still bothers me and I need to say something.
This response is inappropriate (especially from a staff member) and has rightfully gotten criticized for this by members here for unneeded hostility. Worse, I know this isn't the first time B-Dubs has upset multiple people for their attitude (as evidenced in this thread alone). I recall specifically requesting the ability to ignore moderators because of the way B-Dubs has responded in the past that has upset me.
I'm beginning to feel this thread is turning into a witch-hunt. I realize I risk further perpetuating that with this post, but people are understandably upset, and I don't think being silent on the issue solves the problem. I recognize these forums are the staff's domain. It is a privilege for us to post here. But at some point, when there's enough voices saying the same thing or feeling the same way and it comes up time and time again, it does warrant questioning as to whether this position is the right one to take for the sake of the community.
I know the moderators might be feeling pressured into closing this thread to avoid further conflict. I do fear it will be kicking the can down the road, though. Regardless of their decision, I hope internal discussions and reflection are had at the very least.
Thanks. I appreciate it, and even more so because your response was the only one that had any kind of empathy and understanding for what I've been going through...which sadly doesn't surprise me.
So, thank you. =)
Facts. Let me clarify that I am not or was not against lockdown to make sure hospitals were not overwhelmed/to mitigate spread of a novel virus with no treatments at the time. I'm against this ridiculous notion of doing it for some crazy long amount of time (1 year) to eradicate a highly infectious respiratory virus
Ask China how Zero COVID worked out for them
it must vary by country, quite a lot.
in Finland absolutely no one has given a single fuck about Covid for the past year two, we genuinely moved on and there's no denial, its just over. and i get it, we didnt have it as bad as many other countries. and i dont personally know anyone who really suffered from the virus (or even lockdown's effects), never had it myself or my partner. and i work all around in a busy hospital and see how insignificant the virus has been here now (i dont think i've personally seen more than 2-4 covid patients this whole year).
yeah, i feel lucky i live in an area where the vast majority were spared from the pandemic's most negative effects.. really lucky.
in Finland absolutely no one has given a single fuck about Covid for the past year two, we genuinely moved on and there's no denial, its just over. and i get it, we didnt have it as bad as many other countries. and i dont personally know anyone who really suffered from the virus (or even lockdown's effects), never had it myself or my partner. and i work all around in a busy hospital and see how insignificant the virus has been here now (i dont think i've personally seen more than 2-4 covid patients this whole year).
yeah, i feel lucky i live in an area where the vast majority were spared from the pandemic's most negative effects.. really lucky.
What do you want people to do? Do you think after 3 years we should still be in lock down?
As a severely immunocompromised person, I don't really wish for lockdowns anymore. They're not practical to maintain at this point anyhow. But I do wish some safety precautions were still taken, like wearing masks in a public/crowded place and social distancing when possible. In the midwestern part of the US where I am, literally all of this has been abandoned. Public transportation doesn't have anyone masking up anymore. Social distancing in places where it would be practical (such as lines or in restaurants) is non-existent. Unsurprisingly, the first time I got COVID was after all the restrictions were removed and everyone tried to pretend things were completely back to normal. It nearly killed me.
Covid showed me how fucking selfish people are. So many people putting "fuck you got mine" on full display, with no regard at all for the health of others. People can't even use masks or wash their hands and instead complain that they have to be decent people, for fucks sake.
Then there's companies trying to tear down WFH, and there's all kinds of people who don't want to admit that long Covid exists and disables people.
The worst of it all though, is seeing how fucking badly immunocompromised people are treated. People will tell immunocompromised people to "just stay home then" because people refuse to follow basic Covid precautions anymore. They'd rather we all go "back to normal" and pretend like nothing happened, and it's the fault of disabled and immunocompromised people for reminding them that not everyone has that same luxury.
Then there's companies trying to tear down WFH, and there's all kinds of people who don't want to admit that long Covid exists and disables people.
The worst of it all though, is seeing how fucking badly immunocompromised people are treated. People will tell immunocompromised people to "just stay home then" because people refuse to follow basic Covid precautions anymore. They'd rather we all go "back to normal" and pretend like nothing happened, and it's the fault of disabled and immunocompromised people for reminding them that not everyone has that same luxury.
This is a good starting point in terms of broad strokes, but honestly the research is in its infancy and treatment of its symptoms (let alone the underlying causes) are not in any kind of positive state. That's part of the frustrating aspect about watching people go head-long into constant repeat infections.Post-COVID Conditions
Some people experience new or ongoing symptoms lasting weeks or months.
I guess it's surprising that if millions are truly effected the scientific community isn't doing more to research this. But who knows, maybe some breakout information is coming in the near future
Masking in indoor spaces makes sense. It doesn't make sense in restaurants or bars for obvious reasons
I do agree that more investments in ventilation/air filtering systems (placing hospital grade HEPA filters in those places) should be done to help reduce risk
Social distancing isn't gonna work either especially in cultures where physical touch is the norm. It makes sense in Japan for example but it def won't fly in Brazil, Spain, etc (basically every Latin country where they love physical intimacy)
Ye, once people heard the fatality rate was around 1% for Covid these people went ham pushing back on even the most mild mitigation efforts such as politely asking them to wear a mask. I really worry what will happen if we get an unexpected new disease circulating in the near future with like, a 5% rate. The US would stand no chance and we'd be ravaged by the consequences of it.