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Hypothetical question: What would happen if Saruman gained the One Ring?
- Thread starter Deleted member 16516
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Yeah, it's certainly possible that even for powerful and wise beings like Gandalf and Galadriel, the ring is still able to at least partially deceive them. They remain fully aware of its true nature, even that using it would be ruinous, but believe the would have enough power to resist Sauron when ultimately there would be no resisting Sauron on a long enough timeline. The true nature of the ring would eventually prevail.
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Tolkien stated the following in Letter 131:
"...But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will."
Yeah I could see something along the lines of saruman ultimately defeating Sauron then say imprisoning him for a hundred years during a brutal reign and then Sauron who is ultimately immortal with the ring , escaping and regaining power at some point . Or reincarnating if destroyed at some point.
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Something akin to the captivity of Melkor and then Sauron somehow convincing Saruman that he will be subservient to him.
It wouldn't be beyond Sauron as he did something similar during the Second Age with Ar-Pharazôn.
Basically, what we understand as "good" would end up feeling like our understanding of "evil," warped by an overzealous enforcement and adherence to Gandalf's single unchallenged vision of "good." The scales would tip too far in the opposite direction and cause the same problems.
I really didn't like how this scene looked in the films. But it does give you indication of what the ring will do in time.
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With the secret knowledge they gained from the East, yes.
Thanks for making this thread, Edmond. I'm looking forward to reading through it when I have time.
I think that Saruman would have usurped control over Mordor and the orcs. He would force Sauron to kneel before him and swear loyalty and subservience. But I can't imagine Saruman actually being able to kill Sauron. Doing so would mean tossing aside the Ring, discarding Sauron's knowledge and power. Sauron would fill Saruman's head with flattery, oaths of loyalty, and promises of even greater power.
Saruman would take Sauron's throne, but Sauron would remain. Sauron would play the part of Wormtongue to Saruman's Theomond. He would tell Saruman what Saruman wanted to hear, but Sauron would continue to warp and shape Saruman's vision of the world. Even in the books, Saruman did naught but recreate Mordor in miniature in his own domain. Deep in his heart, he is awed by Sauron. Sauron would use that to his advantage, and bide his time.
Saruman would take Sauron's throne, but Sauron would remain. Sauron would play the part of Wormtongue to Saruman's Theomond. He would tell Saruman what Saruman wanted to hear, but Sauron would continue to warp and shape Saruman's vision of the world. Even in the books, Saruman did naught but recreate Mordor in miniature in his own domain. Deep in his heart, he is awed by Sauron. Sauron would use that to his advantage, and bide his time.
I guess the movies don't make sarumans role in the movie so easy to understand. I always thought he was just a lackey of saurons not in contention to usurp his rule.
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Yes, that is one thing that wasn't made absolutely clear, that Saruman and Gandalf were of the same order (Maiar) as Sauron. But explaining to the audience that the wizards and the Dark Lord in front of you are lesser angels older than the planet itself would require exposition that there really wasn't time for.
Actually, what power does the one ring actually grant to its wielder? From the movies it seems it's just invisibility? But it doesn't make Frodo (or Gollum) particularly powerful or anything like that. Even that one King dude at the beginning of the trilogy, the one who refused to cast the ring into Mount Doom, was killed really easily while wearing it. So why exactly is everyone acting as if that ring is something that can give you powerful abilities/status or something like that...?
I find it funny and all with Sauron and his powers. Then you go a step higher and get to Melkor / Morgoth where Sauron was a mere lieutenant.
And, Tom Bombadil, he seem to be more powerful as in, don't care in the ring isn't affected by it, right Edmond Dantès?
And, Tom Bombadil, he seem to be more powerful as in, don't care in the ring isn't affected by it, right Edmond Dantès?
He'd be able to resist its power for maybe .... oh 15 minutes before he'd turned on Sauron too, lol. I mean with the Ring, what's the point of even having Sauron around, Saruman would be more powerful from what I understand.
That said Sauron would indeed likely bide his time and make himself a "servant" of Saruman.
That said Sauron would indeed likely bide his time and make himself a "servant" of Saruman.
This could be off topic but is there an abstraction at play with Sauron and the one ring or is it simply a good vs evil thing, similar to Star Wars? (I know Tolkien was big on industrialization vs nature and war but I fail to see if the one ring represents a concept of an element in there... it's probably just temptation on a philosophical level, right?... I'm not trying to talk down on it btw but it's not like the spice or the enigmatic leader fallacy in Dune, right?)
I thought the Ring contained a part of the soul of Sauron and thus obeyed only Sauron to augment his powers but beyond that I was under the impression that the ring was useless to everybody else and all it could do was manipulate and corrupt their thoughts, not give them extra powers.
WHY DIDN'T THE EAGLES DROP IT IN MOUNT DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM? FAKE NEWS.
They were going to as a part of Gandalf's plan but he encountered the Balrog. What else do you think he meant by "Fly you fools"?
Was it like a one time use thingy, couldn't they recharge it?! I demand answers!
He had to keep the plan hidden and was going to meet the Eagles after Moria but when he fell to the Balrog that's all he could yell in hopes they understood his plan. But then they did not....
I know its been rehashed to death, but I'm pretty sure the eagles would've just rode right into the Nazgul, a bunch of giant ass Eagles flying towards Mordor is something they'd see coming from a long ways off and you'd risk basically just flying the Ring directly to Sauron.
I'm not a poker man... but if I would I would put all in on the eagles vs some hobbits (and one was even a Took for pete's sake!).
I think any of the people who resisted the ring being handed to them: Gandalf, Galadriel etc... and any of the really truly courageous people: Frodo, Sam, Argorn etc... could have taken the ring and eventually overcome Sauron.
From everything written it would become a matter of a battle of wills ultimately, and all of these people have proven the will to defeat and overcome both the temptation of event and the direct assault of it.
From everything written it would become a matter of a battle of wills ultimately, and all of these people have proven the will to defeat and overcome both the temptation of event and the direct assault of it.
I don't think Sauron would immediately send his forces towards Orthanc. He would probably send the Nazgul to spy on Saruman and wait for the right moment.
Saruman would probably use his enhanced power to persuade Rohan and perhaps even Gondor to "join his cause" and build an army to overthrow Sauron eventually. He might also attempt to build an even bigger/stronger tower full of machinery, to show off his splendor. I can also see him advancing his own ring knowledge and perhaps forging his own lesser rings of power that he could give to his commanders.
I wonder if the Valar would interfere if Saruman eventually had most of Middle-Earth under his control. They might feel a bit responsible because they're the ones who sent him there.
Saruman would probably use his enhanced power to persuade Rohan and perhaps even Gondor to "join his cause" and build an army to overthrow Sauron eventually. He might also attempt to build an even bigger/stronger tower full of machinery, to show off his splendor. I can also see him advancing his own ring knowledge and perhaps forging his own lesser rings of power that he could give to his commanders.
I wonder if the Valar would interfere if Saruman eventually had most of Middle-Earth under his control. They might feel a bit responsible because they're the ones who sent him there.
That sea might not be a sea forever, in 10000 years landmasses can shift and what was once a sea could be a valley, or an underground current might bring the ring back to shore. Gandalf didn't want a temporary solution.
Need the Tolkien letter confirming Arda has plate tectonics!
Right, we're not talking a grocery list of special abilities - but instead power and knowledge. Power and knowledge that can be drawn upon to amplify your own strengths and abilities. The knowledge part is especially cool because it implies the One Ring has a memory of its own, remembering the things Sauron learned and achieved while possessing it rather than simply having a copy of Sauron's own knowledge.
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As Tolkien stated in Lettter #131, it increased his power while wearing it and maintained his strength while it existed. Plus, the control it granted over his minions.
I think even Tom would succumb to the power of the One if he found himself in possession of it on Mount Doom. In his territory he was immune, but outside of it, one wonders how much power he actually had. Unless, of course his territory encompassed all of Arda.
It grants power to its 'wielder' not the bearers. Gollum, Bilbo were always just that.
It's implied Frodo unwittingly wields it twice, once for 'seeing' and once in a will dominating fashion with Gollum. Galadriel notes his potential to do so if he was 'trained in dominating wills of others'.
There's also a scene that implies Sam used the ring power against the Orcs once, but that one is less clear.
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Considering the following quotes from Tolkien, I would assume that the Istari were locked into their raiments as they were specifically sent to Middle-earth with a purpose. Other Ainur had more free rein to do a they pleased in terms of taking physical form. Sauron more so because of his skill in shape-shifting.
"[The Valar and Maiar] often took the form and likeness of [Elves and Men], especially after their appearance. …Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was "real", that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gil-galad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the "will" or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear "mythologically" in [The Lord of the Rings]."
"...being embodied the Istari had … to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which … they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time."
...Of major interest, however, is a brief and very hasty sketch of a narrative, telling of a council of the Valar, summoned it seems by Manwë ("and maybe he called upon Eru for counsel?"), at which it was resolved to send out three emissaries to Middle-earth. "Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it."
I totally agree, but claiming and wielding the One Ring for himself would be a pretty irrevocable turning away from his purpose as could be, and so I wonder if the strength of the Ring plus the complete refusal of the task would be enough to "unlock" the body he's stuck to. Pure hypothesizing, of course. If it would be possible, then there's no question Saruman would have trounced Sauron.
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Indeed. The thought of an unchained Maia (and one not already slightly dimished as Sauron was post-Numenor) with the One Ring in Middle-earth is something to fear. Maybe then the Valar would intervene in some way. But would it just be a vicious circle? Would they keep on sending more powerful emissaries or warriors like Eonwë? Or would they once again ask for Eru's aid?
I feel like they'd have to go to Eru again. Only Eonwe would be someone I could think of to send who's not a Vala. Anyone else would just be throwing more oil on the fire at that point, so to speak. And at that point, why risk Eonwe anyways? The point of sending the Istari would already have failed, so if you're going to escalate, just escalate all the way. The only other option is just to abandon Middle-earth and leave it up to Eru, which is the same thing anyways. Might as well directly tell Eru you fucked up instead of just trying to shrug your shoulders and wash your hands of it.
Question: How does one actually use the ring? We know that putting it on makes the user invisible. Yet Sauron did not. I guess because it's his ring. But it was unclear how someone can actually use the power of the ring. Would wearing it around the neck give the user ability to command other to their will or does the ring have to be worn?
Let's say Saruman put it on. No one can see him to follow his orders.
Let's say Saruman put it on. No one can see him to follow his orders.
I'm almost positive that the invisibility thing isn't automatic for everyone, it's almost just like the weakest setting for someone who isn't able to use the ring's power in any other way. Someone like Saruman or Galadriel wearing it would not be invisible because they would be using it to greater effect.
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Anoregon is spot on with what he said. A more powerful wearer of the One would not turn invisible but be able to make much more use of the powers of the One. It may have been that the invisibility was a by-product of what was an inbuilt security mechanism that alerted Sauron or at least have him a sense when someone was wearing it.
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I wonder if Sauron's third body had organs as such or if it was a mere husk held together by his will.
If I were Sauron I would wear it around my you know what... no one knows I would have it and the ring does adjust to the circumference of the you know what.