As a huge smash fan. I agree with thisIf I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.
As a huge smash fan. I agree with thisIf I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.
If I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.
ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.
i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.
and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.
so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.
and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?
it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.
my bad, misread your post. i was very sleepyWait, I just wrote "the signs were all there" as in the signs that Nintendo didn't give a damn about the smash community. That wasn't me saying the community was full of bad people. That was me saying that due to all the crap Nintendo has done to the smash community, it isn't surprising that Nintendo isn't fond of the competitive scene
I make fun of a lot of communities including ones I'm a part in such as final fantasy and pokemon and smash isn't any better or worse tbh
Not really, it's obviously worlds better than what they do for Smash, but it isn't particularly good on its own merits. Players generally dislike the rulesets their tournaments run, whether it's the Japanese turf war only one or the online open ruleset which doesn't run sets and has a strange counterpick system. Players appreciate the fact that it exists but it's clear that they could do better.
No. The leaders of the Melee community have broken warped compass's and they're the reason Nintendo took this action. And guess what, those actions have consequences. The competitive scene has been a cess poll for decades.
And I'm sorry that people that aren't vile human beings can't play competitively like they want now, but this was what Nintendo needed to do before the Smash name was destroyed forever.
Move to Smash Ultimate that Nintendo supports. Foster a good community there. Melee is, rightfully, dead.
The same management team that negotiated for the return of Banjo Kazooie, from a competing company no less, because there was demand for those characters?
Reading the TwitLonger post I sympathise with people who want the Smash scene to be this big huge thing that has wonderful prize money, is televised and makes influencers even more influencey or whatever - but that really does read like a lot of entitlement and over dramatic victimhood.
Nintendo have < 6000 employees, likely have their own tightly run PR plan, and their own priorities. Whinging that the Smash scene should be one of those priorities doesn't make it so. This is akin to YouTubers crying when they can't get review copies. You're not entitled to shit. Are people really surprised that they drag their feet or have unease about third party groups monetising their old games, or even running hacked versions of them, and generally exposing their brand - online or on TV - in a way that they can't control?
The controversies have been brought up a lot in this thread, but seriously, as a mental exercise: imagine their legal and PR teams looking on at what's happening the next time it emerges some insecure incel who happens to be talented at Smash Bros inappropriately propositions someone or actually physically harasses them. Imagine if they'd had their name next to that story in lights, or had already given them prize money or salaried them for something. I honestly don't blame them for being wary. They're the closest thing to Disney in this industry and they're naturally very conservative in what they do and massively protective of their brands. And just to reiterate, even if they wanted to do everything ever - they can't. A lot of those tweets read some kind of malice/mal-intent towards these guys or that they don't care at all, and I bet that's just not the case. In fact, it sounds like on a number of different occasions they've tried to do deals and it just hasn't worked.. the new game came out etc.
No. The leaders of the Melee community have broken warped compass's and they're the reason Nintendo took this action. And guess what, those actions have consequences. The competitive scene has been a cess poll for decades.
It's not a good comparison but playing an old video game for a decade doesn't magically earn you entitlements from a company infamous for being conservative, secretive and protectionist with their IP. Nintendo does and doesn't care in equal measure, if that makes sense.Comparing Smash players, some who've played the game for a DECADE, to youtubers complaining not getting a review copy is a hilariously bad comparison. Like outta this world bad.
.Reading the TwitLonger post I sympathise with people who want the Smash scene to be this big huge thing that has wonderful prize money, is televised and makes influencers even more influencey or whatever - but that really does read like a lot of entitlement and over dramatic victimhood.
Nintendo have < 6000 employees, likely have their own tightly run PR plan, and their own priorities. Whinging that the Smash scene should be one of those priorities doesn't make it so. This is akin to YouTubers crying when they can't get review copies. You're not entitled to shit. Are people really surprised that they drag their feet or have unease about third party groups monetising their old games, or even running hacked versions of them, and generally exposing their brand - online or on TV - in a way that they can't control?
The controversies have been brought up a lot in this thread, but seriously, as a mental exercise: imagine their legal and PR teams looking on at what's happening the next time it emerges some insecure incel who happens to be talented at Smash Bros inappropriately propositions someone or actually physically harasses them. Imagine if they'd had their name next to that story in lights, or had already given them prize money or salaried them for something. I honestly don't blame them for being wary. They're the closest thing to Disney in this industry and they're naturally very conservative in what they do and massively protective of their brands. And just to reiterate, even if they wanted to do everything ever - they can't. A lot of those tweets read some kind of malice/mal-intent towards these guys or that they don't care at all, and I bet that's just not the case. In fact, it sounds like on a number of different occasions they've tried to do deals and it just hasn't worked.. the new game came out etc.
"Smashers" are more than people who play the game competitively. Just because they're not bending over backwards to appease the tournament scene doesn't mean they're totally out of touch with their fanbase, just means they're more concerned about other sections of their market. I brought up Banjo & Kazooie as an example of them listening to another particular section of the fanbase of the same game.Ah yes, because these two situations are totally related. It's totally acceptable for Nintendo to act like this because they got to license an old character that they should have owned the rights to from the jump. Lol.
"Smashers" are more than people who play the game competitively.
It's probably too much to ask Smashers to re-examine their priorities on this specific issue because of the victim complex that the scene seems to thrive on. The only valid and productive option is moving on from a scene that will never formally be supported by the parent company. #FreeSmash? lol, how would that even work exactly.Maybe it is time to break free from the endless hype cycle feeding a company that makes a game you like, but doesn't like you at all and will never like you.
There have been dozens of projects (and there will be more) of "Platform fighter aimed at the competitive Smash audience". None have succeeded because the sad reality is that it is a small niche market.Nintendo has been actively hostile to the idea of a competitive smash scene for decades now. Anybody with eyes to see knows this and with enough distance, is never disappointed by that continuing policy.
Maybe it is time to break free from the endless hype cycle feeding a company that makes a game you like, but doesn't like you at all and will never like you.
It's not a good comparison but playing an old video game for a decade doesn't magically earn you entitlements from a company infamous for being conservative, secretive and protectionist with their IP. Nintendo does and doesn't care in equal measure, if that makes sense.
So why they bothered with an ultimate tournament anyway? Just because of Nintendo?TBH is, first and foremost, a Melee event. Accordingly, saying "they should've just cancelled the Melee component" is a bit of a non-sequitur, especially since in 2020 Melee has much better netcode than Ultimate does so even within their respective communities online Melee tournaments are taken far more seriously than online Ultimate tournaments.
There have been dozens of projects (and there will be more) of "Platform fighter aimed at the competitive Smash audience". None have succeeded because the sad reality is that it is a small niche market.
You build a scene around someone else's stuff, you're gonna have to deal with that person or entity in some capacity. That's the reality. Nailing your theses to the door of the internet or paying for your own tournament pots isn't going to change that.What are Smashers asking for exactly? "Hey Nintendo! Stop suing us and leave us alone"
That's a reasonable request with the consideration that the community is entirely self funded.
Small market or market where there are 2 well-established incumbents with beloved IP that are hard to compete with for a share? I'm curious how you were able to make that distinctionThere have been dozens of projects (and there will be more) of "Platform fighter aimed at the competitive Smash audience". None have succeeded because the sad reality is that it is a small niche market.
You build a scene around someone else's stuff, you're gonna have to deal with that person or entity in some capacity. That's the reality. Nailing your theses to the door of the internet isn't going to change that.
They are good numbers considering the context. Personally, I don't know how much you can enjoy Rivals of Aether as a party game, I only know it from the competitive one.Rivals of Aether is 500k - 1Million sales on Steam which is significant for an indie competitive platform fighter.
Nintendo doesn't want to deal with them. So the choices are: raging and hashtagging on twitter which means effectively nothing or using the influence of a community to boost an indie smash-style game that does not have the chains of IP. Which is more productive, I think we know the answer.We know. You don't need to continue stating the obvious. The issue here is its only Nintendo really doing this so they're a real outlier in the industry. Only other instance I can even think of is the Dragon Ball FIghterz situation with Toei (?).
Nintendo doesn't want to deal with them. So the choices are: raging and hashtagging on twitter which means effectively nothing or using the influence of a community to boost an indie smash-style game that does not have the chains of IP. Which is more productive, I think we know the answer.
If I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.
Nintendo doesn't want to deal with them. So the choices are: raging and hashtagging on twitter which means effectively nothing or using the influence of a community to boost an indie smash-style game that does not have the chains of IP. Which is more productive, I think we know the answer.
"Smashers" are more than people who play the game competitively. Just because they're not bending over backwards to appease the tournament scene doesn't mean they're totally out of touch with their fanbase, just means they're more concerned about other sections of their market. I brought up Banjo & Kazooie as an example of them listening to another particular section of the fanbase of the same game.
The Twit Longer simply reveals Nintendo aren't that fussed taking things further in regards to the competitive scene, so it's a bit weird to use this to make sweeping statements about their entire management structure - the ones currently overseeing one of their most successful systems one might add.
I do enjoy people using the word "killed" a lot to make it sound far more dramatic than it really is, which is just Nintendo not being bothered with certain proposals brought up to them. Heck, this might not even be true if one re-reads the Twitch section again. They wanted to shift the focus to Ultimate, a game which came out late 2018. So 2019 they may have continued negotiating it, but then 2020 hit (I'm sure I don't have to explain what happened here) and it was put on the back burner cos it wasn't a priority. But saying Nintendo is still in talks with Twitch wouldn't exactly aid this woe is me tale.
Definitely. It is hard to blame Nintendo here. They took so long to start supporting the competitive scene, and when they started hesitantly all the pedophilia came out. Now it is time to go back into the Koopa shell.
Blame the community that didn't speak up and protect the vulnerable sooner.
Then your community will continue to live in a state of perpetual victimhood that is ignored and tacitly despised by the company who makes the game. Enjoy, I guess.The issue with that is that Melee is such a good game, some of which is because of the characters everyone loves and having Nintendo's talent and money behind it. Rivals of Aether etc will get people playing them, but never as the primary game.
literal, explicit victim blaming now. very cool
Then your community will continue to live in a state of perpetual victimhood that is ignored and tacitly despised by the company who makes the game. Enjoy, I guess.
People on this site don't seem to even want to play the game with each other and rather post idol character images of 100 varieties though. Its not hard to see which users actually give a shit about each other. Fuck those of us people who really just adore a videogame though, praise Nintendo.
lvl 99 Pixel clearly explained why this is an unusual situation to be in for a competitive game (many others do not actively receive support from the developer, that is not what Melee wants. It simply wants to be able to exist without active disruption from the developer, which is much more uncommon). Your replies seem to suggest this isn't a valid desire / is indicative of a "victim complex", which I think is pretty unfair even if you don't personally share that desire.Then your community will continue to live in a state of perpetual victimhood that is ignored and tacitly despised by the company who makes the game. Enjoy, I guess.
Most people just see them as "Those weird guys that when I enjoy Ultimate/Brawl/WiiU come and try to explain that Melee is better." Even if it's not true. It is the image they have.
100% the people with anti-melee hate aren't actually thinking, it's all emotion.
Not our fault Melee is better than the latest Smash games 🤷🏽♂️.
yeah what the fuck. I thought ERA was better than that.
That's the sting isn't it. Nintendo can ignore them when it's convenient and interfere when it's convenient. That's my point really, building a fan community where the entity ultimately in charge is uncooperative and conservative is not tenable and should be abandoned.They are not ignored by Nintendo, this is the issue here. That would be preferable.
We know. You don't need to continue stating the obvious. The issue here is its only Nintendo really doing this so they're a real outlier in the industry. Only other instance I can even think of is the Dragon Ball FIghterz situation with Toei (?).
There have been dozens of projects (and there will be more) of "Platform fighter aimed at the competitive Smash audience". None have succeeded because the sad reality is that it is a small niche market.
Brawlhalla is the most played fighter on Steam by large (around 17K average when the 2d best, Tekken 7 is around 4K average at best) and got a healthy competitive scene. Last week end tournament peaked at around 150K viewers on Twitch.Rivals of Aether is 500k - 1Million sales on Steam which is significant for an indie competitive platform fighter.
That's the sting isn't it. Nintendo can ignore them when it's convenient and interfere when it's convenient. That's my point really, building a fan community where the entity ultimately in charge is uncooperative and conservative is not tenable and should be abandoned.
Brawlhalla is the most played fighter on Steam by large (around 17K average when the 2d best, Tekken 7 is around 4K average at best) and got a healthy competitive scene. Last week end tournament peaked at around 150K viewers on Twitch.
And there's the Fraymakers Kickstarter that launched a week ago and has already doubled its goal.Brawlhalla is the most played fighter on Steam by large (around 17K average when the 2d best, Tekken 7 is around 4K average at best) and got a healthy competitive scene. Last week end tournament peaked at around 150K viewers on Twitch.
True, Brawlhalla is a good example of what happens when a game with a sizable community is well supported by its publisher. Just imagine how much bigger Smash would be if Nintendo supported it like Ubisoft supports BrawlhallaBrawlhalla is the most played fighter on Steam by large (around 17K average when the 2d best, Tekken 7 is around 4K at best) and got a healthy competitive scene. Last week end tournament peaked at 150K viewers on Twitch.