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samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
some people in this thread pretending we can't have health care because of the rich is a special kind of communist nonsense.
In the US, they make it harder to get better and wider healthcare than it needs to be. Preventing people from getting healthcare or trying to stifle healthcare legislation or raising drug prices way beyond their cost of production qualifies as "evil" for me. I'll just post this again.

_105991728_optimised-insulin_1-nc.png


The rich are literally killing people here. Maybe not directly, but they're profiting off of people's deaths and desperation.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,114
No see that's where you're wrong, because you have absolutely no proof of that, and once you do have proof I'll be happy to acknowledge it as a fact, but till that day comes. This is completely false information and doesn't reflect the general billionaire/millionaire population.
We have absolute proof of that, because that is literally how capitalist society works.

To amass that much wealth requires playing the system and THIS is how the system works.
 

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
On billionaires- the public resentment comes from the fact that tax law and other legal structures actually make it so that certain kinds of billionaires don't have to play at all - the game just plays itself and declares you the winner. People working two retail jobs and an Uber shift are the ones playing Dark Souls on Hard Mode.
Good analogy.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,114
Money doesn't build happiness as much as everyone says it does.
Expect money is essential to happiness, because if we live in specific societies we need a certain amount to cover our basic needs... and a HUGE amount of the population doesn't meet those needs.

You're living in a dreamland.
 

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Expect money is essential to happiness, because if we live in specific societies we need a certain amount to cover our basic needs... and a HUGE amount of the population doesn't meet those needs.

You're living in a dreamland.
Money isn't essential to happiness, as long as your needs are met. It's essential to survival in specific countries because we need it to meet our needs. If everyone's basic needs are met, housing, food, etc., then money wouldn't be needed. It's only "essential" to happiness because it determines our ability to survive. Once you've crossed a certain threshold, it's accepted academically that more money doesn't necessarily increase your happiness. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-happy-according-to-wealth-experts.html

However, if you can't meet your needs money is absolutely essential for happiness. You can't be happy if you don't have a safe place to sleep and food in your belly. I agree with you 100%.
 
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astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,114
Money isn't essential to happiness. It's essential to survival in specific countries because we need it to meet our needs. If everyone's basic needs are met, housing, food, etc., then money wouldn't be needed. It's only "essential" to happiness because it determines our ability to survive. Once you've crossed a certain threshold, it's accepted academically that more money doesn't necessarily increase your happiness. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/20/how-much-money-you-need-to-be-happy-according-to-wealth-experts.html
Yes it is, because as explained meeting your basic needs is 100% essential to happiness and you need money to do that.

I already covered this in the post you quoted to explain it...
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Speaking of 'happiness':

emotionandincome-01_0.png


If you're a classic utilitarian and think "more people being happy is better", then it makes more sense to tax Bezos in such a way that 3,437 Amazon employees can hit the $80k threshold than for his current net worth to expand by approximately $275 million per day. You could do this if, for example, Amazon's shares were distributed more to the workers.

How much do they make anyway?

Amazon (AMZN) disclosed in a filing Wednesday that the median pay for its employees was just $28,446 in 2017. Put another way: half of Amazon's employees earned less than that amount.
 

Dartastic

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Yes it is, because as explained meeting your basic needs is 100% essential to happiness and you need money to do that.

I already covered this in the post you quoted to explain it...
We're saying the same thing in different ways, essentially. In today's society, it's essential. If needs were covered, outside of monetary value, it wouldn't be.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210

Because that means all wealth is cut off at an arbitrary value. How do you expect people to start businesses, fund massive projects in technology and healthcare? They can't - it's all in the hands of the government and if you think, for example, the USA is to be trusted with all industry then ok I hope you like gun manufacturing.

Just curious, what makes a person that can amass millions so worthy of your trust?

I never said they were worthy of my trust. I said I trust a successful person with their money over a government entity with that money. One has a motivation to amass more wealth by generating something other people want, and one has the motivation to control and stay in power.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,818
Terana
Imagine having 100 billon! 😂

The actual levels of wealth inequality is so fucking absurd it's laughable.

Imagine actively caping for the 1%. This site never fails to entertain with its assortment of out of touch bullshit.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
Speaking of 'happiness':

emotionandincome-01_0.png


If you're a classic utilitarian and think "more people being happy is better", then it makes more sense to tax Bezos in such a way that 3,437 Amazon employees can hit the $80k threshold than for his current net worth to expand by approximately $275 million per day. You could do this if, for example, Amazon's shares were distributed more to the workers.

How much do they make anyway?



While the concept is understandable, these values are super dependent on location. For example, I bet the 95% confidence interval in San Francisco and Hong Kong approach $200,000 and the marginal gains approach zero at $400,000 lol
 

Deleted member 1445

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,140
But it's not a game. It's not at all a game. People should be putting in effort in making society a better place and also putting that effort in to making money. Money doesn't build happiness as much as everyone says it does.
It really is though, and it pays off to view it in the same perspective. We can tussle over the semantics of it (IMO it's applicable even with the common definition), but the point is that it's more than worthwhile to see it that way, it brings a lot of perspective to the big picture. It's nothing but a set of rules by which we all abide with a certain goal (happiness and prosperity to the most amount of people IMO). The only way we make society better is if we keep developing and change it for the better. Making money is inside the context of the game, voting and governing is the context of development. The sad thing is, that some people don't give a fuck about developing our society further, because they're happy where they're at, and defend it by having this fantasy of society being something immutable, something that arises spontaneously because of some sort of principles.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
How do you expect people to start businesses, fund massive projects in technology and healthcare? They can't
Okay, setting the rest aside for a moment, you do realize that, on a historical scale, we didn't have billionaires until we had millionaires, right? People funded these "massive projects" before billionaires existed. These billionaires were created by said "massive projects", the billionaires didn't appear first. Yes it's more complicated than that, inflation, blah bah blah, whatever. The point is, society was not built off the back of billionaires, because billionaires didn't exist until very recently.

And second, all that technology and healthcare is meaningless if it's only available to a select few. If you think it eventually filters down to average consumers (not that I deny this happens), you've actually just adopted a trickle down model of innovation.
the USA is to be trusted with all industry then ok I hope you like gun manufacturing.
I'm not a proponent of state-run economies, I just want the US government to have a greater say in it than they do now, because the state is democratically accountable while private industries are only accountable to "market forces". If unionization in the US wasn't as anemic as it is, I would care less about democratizing industries, but, would you look at that, the rich hate unions as well and constantly suppress them. Huh, what a surprise.
 
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KimiNewt

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,749
Why not just have sensible income tax brackets that don't top off at 30%? You don't need to execute anyone who gets over 10 million. Going for bullshit like 99% is wack, how would you build the brackets for that? You can't tax their entire income like that.

You need people being able to get rich in a capitalist system. You don't have to cap their wealth like it's an MMO level, just have diminishing returns with it capping off around 70-80%, plus with taxes for capital gains and inheritance. Not everything has to be black and white.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Going for bullshit like 99% is wack, how would you build the brackets for that? You can't tax their entire income like that.
In 1944-45, "the most progressive tax years in U.S. history," the 94% rate applied to any income above $200,000 ($2.4 million in 2009 dollars, given inflation).

Very few individuals encountered this top rate, however. The actual proportion of earnings citizens paid as income taxes in 1945 was far lower:
for the poorest 20% of Americans, 1.7%;

for the next 20%, 6.2%;

for the middle quintile, 8.9%,

for the upper-middle quintile, 10%;

and for the wealthiest quintile, 20.7%.

Yes it was wartime and wartime requires special circumstances but if you view the modern problems of inequality, healthcare, environmental degredation, etc. a crisis on the level of war (which I do), then a heavy tax on the top makes sense. At the very least, the "free market" isn't fixing these things, just making them worse.
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
They are working for their money and creating massive companies which they proceed to pay for their families, and other families working for them. How is that a bad thing?

It's a question of whether or not current scales of inequality are necessary for growth. I think that is as simple as it gets. Take this for instance:

The large lot of rich people just live off of the interest they generate, and don't really do much to effect the current status of people who aren't as rich or really anyone else.

Extremely high income earners, as well as those who own a lot of wealth, take up space in an economy. In doing so they do effect other people who aren't as rich as them. At a very basic level (though maybe not the most significant) you could think of the hypothetical consumption of a rich person and suggest that the group of people employed in servicing their particular consumption are not employed in servicing the consumption of other people. So if you live in a city with a luxury car dealership, or a city with a very high income residential area, you can look at the houses built there or the cars and see potentially thousands of people who are employed to make these things for a small group of people. Those people could be employed in producing goods and services that are more affordable to more people, and in doing so they'd increase the flow of goods and services accessible to the general public and make the general public richer. But instead, their time is spent on something that is only accessible to a small fraction of the population. This is a choice we make in spending our scarce resources.

But while luxury goods and services can be a big industry, I don't think this is the primary drain on the economy of vast inequality. It is actually the limited avenues of investment available to the very wealthy, which you kind of nod to by saying the wealthy live off of interest. First of all what meets the most desirable criteria of profitability isn't always going to be the most socially beneficial investment. Secondly, there are almost whole categories of goods and services whose production is simply more effective at the scale of a state. If these two things are true, it is at the very least the case that by leaving some portion of investment to large private wealth holders we may be wasting time and effort and perpetuating excessive suffering.
 
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Awesome Kev

Banned
Jan 10, 2018
1,670
A million seconds is 11 days, a billion seconds is 31 years

"and a trillion seconds is 31709 years."
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
We have absolute proof of that, because that is literally how capitalist society works.

To amass that much wealth requires playing the system and THIS is how the system works.

This. I'm getting very worried about Era-members basic knowledge about how capitalism works - the exploitation of workers is foundational, as is monopoly rent, as is accumulation by disposession...
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
No see that's where you're wrong, because you have absolutely no proof of that, and once you do have proof I'll be happy to acknowledge it as a fact, but till that day comes. This is completely false information and doesn't reflect the general billionaire/millionaire population.


I mean quote something I never said, but that's alright. If those people are in poverty then what exactly do you want them to do? Fund what with their billions exactly. Because currently and almost every time people have said for billionaires to give their money to the lower classes nobody actually mentions a plan to do just that, as doing just that is very difficult to do, and a system which is also would be very easy to abuse.




But it's not a game. It's not at all a game. People should be putting in effort in making society a better place and also putting that effort in to making money. Money doesn't build happiness as much as everyone says it does.

Exploitation is foundational to capitalism - it is basic economics 101 - but if proof for you lies in sociology as I get the sense, I would suggest you list 10-20 billionaires from the top of your head and I think there will be proof produced for each one by Era members of how exploitation is foundational to their accumulation of billions.
 

Mr. Mug

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
650
I mean I don't get why, let people do what they want with their own money lol. They earned it.

The reasoning for why it doesn't just work like this is fairly simple and unless you are a libertarian who wants 0 taxes at all you probably agree at least to some extent. It's because in most if not all ways that you can become a billionaire requires you to use more than your own work and you make use of facilities provided by taxes. Tax is just a way of forcing people to pay for that. If you agree on tax being a thing then you think so too, you just disagree on how severe the tax should be.

There's no such thing as a self-made billionaire, every billionaire has their debt to society.
 

Deleted member 4247

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,896
Wait, stock holdings and/or gains are not taxed in America? They are here in Sweden, either with a flat tax on the value and deposits over the year, or on the gains, depending on the account type.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
All this money still can't buy them happiness so I don't care.
It can buy a lot of poorer people happiness is the point. Would it be better for a billionaire to be rich and unhappy or for a couple of hundred thousand people to pay their bills and be happy?

Opportunity costs always exist. Money that isn't being spent on improving people's lives is wasted opportunity cost.
Wait, stock holdings and/or gains are not taxed in America? They are here in Sweden, either with a flat tax on the value and deposits over the year, or on the gains, depending on the account type.

They are, but only when sold. I don't think holdings themselves are taxed but I'm not an expert on this.