danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,337
Sydney
This is why the "D&D had GRRM's notes to work from" argument doesn't hold much water with me. Because you know who else has GRRM's notes for continuing the story? GRRM! And yet 10+ years later, the existence of those notes hasn't made his work any easier or faster to produce. Obviously just having GRRM's general direction for the story can only do so much in terms of getting actual material down onto a page, and then in front of a camera, as GRRM himself can attest to by now.

The time between the release of Dance with Dragons and the present is longer than the entirety of Game of Thrones run time!

It's very likely several seasons of the prequel series will be released before the Winds of Winter is even finished (if it ever is)!
 
OP
OP
UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
This is why the "D&D had GRRM's notes to work from" argument doesn't hold much water with me. Because you know who else has GRRM's notes for continuing the story? GRRM! And yet 10+ years later, the existence of those notes hasn't made his work any easier or faster to produce. Obviously just having GRRM's general direction for the story can only do so much in terms of getting actual material down onto a page, and then in front of a camera, as GRRM himself can attest to by now.

That's George's hang up though on perfectionism. That's not really because the ending he gave D&D isn't worth writing or filming.

There's more than enough interesting things there to fill several seasons of plot even from the outline George gave them.

What there isn't enough of is time. There isn't enough time to do is in a satisfying way when you want to bail out 2 seasons early because Star Wars. That's your actual problem. The story they were given cannot be told in 14 episodes. No way.
 

Zyae

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Mar 17, 2020
2,057
As much as I hate D&D I just want to say something to those of you who think that the decrease in quality is solely the fault of GRRM for not finishing the books.

I think that you either didn't read the books or are slightly delusional.

There were plenty of plots and subplots that could have been adapted. A lot of them and I do mean A LOT got cut out, removed or altered so much that they weren't recognizable any longer. Jaime and Sansa got so horribly destroyed by show-original subplots that I wince just thinking about them. Half of the show's development and arcs poured into many characters got flushed down the drain for no discernably good reason. The entire Dorne arc, a show original, was a complete and utter shitshow that ruined Jaime's development whereas in the books it was when we saw him grow and develop the most into, in my opinion, a much better character.

I am positive that from season 5 onwards Game of Thrones would have been increasingly worse and an increasingly bigger shit show. Maybe some subplots would have been slightly better because they would have better written dialogue to draw from from the books, those that remained closer to the original material but I have zero doubts that many cuts and adaptations would have been made and they would have still fallen very short of the quality of GRRM's novels.

Their love and interest in the show just wasn't there. They were mentally and emotionally done with the show and I thought that that was obvious enough to anyone watching the show, comparing it to the books and connecting the dotted lines. The turd fest that we had by the end of the show was many years in the making.

The lack of books is not a scapegoat or an excuse for how steep of a decline or sheer amount of completely fabricated and poorly thought out bullshit that we ended up getting.
spot on
 

Ramirez

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,231
I mean he can say they didn't follow the template, but he has yet to release anything that says otherwise. I think they followed his end game to some degree and when he saw people didn't like it, he had to rewrite a bunch of stuff.
 

Rental

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,659
Overall I don't think it hurt the brand. The new series will be crazy popular, anyone thinking it's not going to be is crazy. Worse movies/series have had successful follow ups so no reason GOT shouldn't.

In the end it's really Martin's fault how everything turned out for the main series. Books could have been completed and they were not
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,470
Damn, this reminds me of the Dragon Ball Super finale reactions lol

This forum has largely diverged from how the public perceives GoT for many years, well before S8 dropped. The OTs were filled with people complaining about nearly every episode, year after year, for almost the whole length of the series (or at least since S2, when I started following along in real time). As the show got worse in the eyes of GAF and Era, it also grew more and more popular with the public. Not saying that what the public loves is automatically a barometer of quality (it often is not), but a lot of people here are projecting their views of the show onto a bigger audience that they have generally been out of sync

And contrary to the constant railing on this forum of how the franchise is dead and no one talks about it anymore (our two+ years of regular discussions of how no one discusses GoT lol), I suspect House of the Dragon is going to do just fine, and will probably tap into a hunger among people for more GoT, even after the finale.

Yep, nailed it.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,232
This is why the "D&D had GRRM's notes to work from" argument doesn't hold much water with me. Because you know who else has GRRM's notes for continuing the story? GRRM! And yet 10+ years later, the existence of those notes hasn't made his work any easier or faster to produce. Obviously just having GRRM's general direction for the story can only do so much in terms of getting actual material down onto a page, and then in front of a camera, as GRRM himself can attest to by now.

This defense would hold more water if D&D weren't deciding in season 2 to cut the Sansa plot and instead have her get raped by Ramsay.

D&D's writing choices weren't always made because notes are just too hard to write from. They made choices that they thought were just better than what GRRM had in mind. Which is their prerogative as showrunners adapting for a different medium. But at that point, this discussion is their adaptive instincs and original writing quality and not if it's just too difficult to write from the notes GRRM gave them or that they ran out of stuff to write.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,337
Sydney
That's George's hang up though on perfectionism. That's not really because the ending he gave D&D isn't worth writing or filming.

There's more than enough interesting things there to fill several seasons of plot even from the outline George gave them.

What there isn't enough of is time. There isn't enough time to do is in a satisfying way when you want to bail out 2 seasons early because Star Wars. That's your actual problem. The story they were given cannot be told in 14 episodes. No way.

George is not a perfectionist. He has a large body of prior work he has had no problem finishing.

The reason he can't finish it is because he wrote something too unwieldly and expansive and can't stick the landing.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,092
Houston
Yup! It's STILL a popular show. 5th most watched content at HBO Max in Finland right now and it's a show you could have watched for free here from the telly and it was on HBO Nordic prior. It was among the most popular HBO originals on HBO Max (US) on it's first year too.

Edit: Let's add social media discussion to the mix, from last year. https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/insights/2020/spending-2020-together-on-twitter

ThisHappened_TVShows2020_Final.png.img.fullhd.medium.png


But yeah sure, "nobody talks about the show anymore".
this is extra funny cause in the last stranger things trailer people were saying people aren't interested in stranger things anymore.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,714
GRRM's notes would've told them what to do with Dorne, but even if you assume they had no idea what to do, the logical thing is to use it as a fresh, unbloodied army for Aegon.
Oh right, they didn't do Aegon**, despite GRRM's warning, which is why they didn't know what the fuck to do with Dorne, but they wanted to "do it" anyway.

Okay, even without Aegon... They couldn't do the Dornish plot of conspiring to support Dany without the idiotic murder of Doran and the completely illogical rule by Ellaria Sand?

With every plot thread they messed up, they had enough information to do it adequately even if it differed from GRRM's plans, I don't accept the lack of book material as an excuse to the utter collapse of the writing's quality.

** It's still an incredible "we don't give a fuck" moment when they made the name Rhaegar and Lyanna gave Jon be "Aegon," despite the fact that it is part of show-cannon that Rhaegar and Ellia Martell's son is named Aegon.
What notes, there are no notes. GRRM doesn't plan ahead. He discovers his plots and characters as he writes them. The biggest fallacy in this fandom is that GRRM has some highly detailed outline of the story. I bet he has no clue himself.

And I highly disagree they had enough information to do any of the shit GRRM left unfinished "adequately." If anything, they have proved they have no talent for writing anything without material to fall back on.

This view basically concedes that it wouldn't even matter if Springs and Winds was completed. They had no interest in expanding the story as GRRM was doing and would have butchered through it anyway. You can't be like "they had nothing to adapt and nowhere to go!" while also admitting that they cut out important characters and arcs from the books that tie into the main story and point towards where to go.

They chose not to adapt the material that was available to them, and would have done the same thing to any future material since that material had characters and plots that they had already decided to cut.

Well not exactly. I wasn't like perfectly content with the they adapted the first three books but it was decent and serviceable at worst. If they had an actual, complete "roadmap" ahead of them who knows what might have been. I'm fairly certain the show would have been very different if the complete picture was available to them.
 

KingM

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,514
I mean he can say they didn't follow the template, but he has yet to release anything that says otherwise. I think they followed his end game to some degree and when he saw people didn't like it, he had to rewrite a bunch of stuff.
There are a few storylines that just got tossed to the side that setup where a lot to characters will end. So for example, Brienne's big thing is her becoming a knight and what that means when you're in a situation where you can't act honorably in some way because honoring one promise means dishonoring yourself in another way. That kinda just got dropped in the show so she basically had her wheels spin while having a few jokes with the beared guy from beyond the wall and a cool fight here or there. D&D tossed a lot of interesting character stuff toward the final few seasons.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,518
Not to call you out specifically, but this is the exact sort of logic and writing style that D&D like, and it sucks. Not every plot thread has to end in a Red Wedding style "oh shittttt" moment. The reality is that every single bit of foreshadowing available points to Jon doing the kill on the Others (there's not really a NK in the books).

Imagine if all of the foreshadowing about Jon's parentage pivoted at the last second to "Jon is actually a Lannister!" It's all in the name of shock value, but doesn't make any sense. Arya kick flipping in to do a kill there was dumb as hell, but D&D only got involved in GoT because they liked how Ned got killed and never bothered to read further than the Red Wedding. They live by the Rule of Cool, good writing be damned.
To be fair I made some suggestion that I think would fit in but it's still more interesting than Jon simply killing the night king. I would find that anti climactic. I think they needed a solution that was both suprising and yet obvious at the same time. That in opinion is good storytelling. Like in Lord of The Rings, if Frodo just threw the ring in the fire, it's expected but it be boring, so in Return of the King they have another twist where Frodo gives in to the ring's power and surrenders its location to Sauron. Gollum takes the ring and during the struggle, Frodo pushes both Gollum and the ring into the fires. In my view you need some dramactic twist to the expected, to keep people on edge, rather than Jon simply killing the night king with Longclaw.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,660
How many people would be interested in a new adaptation of the books, perhaps in animated form? More faithful to the books. Something like the Castlevania TV show, but with HBO and more budget (I suppose)? I would watch the fuck out of this.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,583
I can't believe people are actually defending the writing choices of men who said with their own mouths the words "themes are for eighth grade book reports". wild. like that alone should disqualify anything they write from serious consideration.
 

Pikelet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,423
ADWD ends with
Bran meeting tree guy
Jon dead
Stannis freezing with his army
Dany shitting herself in the middle of nowhere
Arya not doing much of anything during her assassin training program
Tyrion still hasn't met Dany
Oh and some newly introduced character that we spent a lot of time with that ended up unceremoniously killed that seemed to serve no purpose whatsoever

What else could they do but diverge. They have nothing to work with for the future.
Insanely reductive summary. Of course you can make it sound like the show used all the book material when you barely mention any of the book material that was excised from the show.

fAegon - AKA the character that it is likely going to make Danaerys' heel-turn make a lick of sense.
Lady Stoneheart wreaking havoc with some major characters
Wyman Manderly and an actually-good northern plotline.
Everything in Dorne, from Doran's multiple failed attempts to marry off his offspring to Targaryens, to the Sand Snakes' failed rebellions
Oldtown and Archmaester Harwyn's plot to snuff out dragons, working in concert with the Faceless Men
Euron's plot to steal command of a Dragon through blood magic
etc. etc.

All this material is just "Nothing to work with" I suppose
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,337
Sydney
What was the original Sansa plot?

Sansa follows her original book plot basically to the end of Dance with Dragons in the show.

The Ramsay rape stuff that happens post books was probably invented by the showrunners (she takes the place of another character in the books who doesn't exist in the show) because they didn't know what to do with her absent source material, and they aren't the most talented writers.

The core problem remains the same; Martin didn't give them material for Sansa and left to their devices they wrote something terrible.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,900
Finland
How many people would be interested in a new adaptation of the books, perhaps in animated form? More faithful to the books. Something like the Castlevania TV show, but with HBO and more budget (I suppose)? I would watch the fuck out of this.
I'd give it a watch, not something I've ever wanted though. I don't need the same story adapted again when it was just done, even if in bit different format. I'm more interested in the spin-off shows, sequels, prequels and what have you.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,614
I mean he can say they didn't follow the template, but he has yet to release anything that says otherwise. I think they followed his end game to some degree and when he saw people didn't like it, he had to rewrite a bunch of stuff.

Lol how can you be so off- base..."he has to release anything that says otherwise"? Really?? Like most of book 4 and 5?

He had to rewrite the end-game? Lol we wish he was close to writing the end-game but we're still far away from that. He's not rewriting anything in Winds because season 8 was a dud, he has too many plots going on that aren't in the show to resolve before tackling that.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,232
How many people would be interested in a new adaptation of the books, perhaps in animated form? More faithful to the books. Something like the Castlevania TV show, but with HBO and more budget (I suppose)? I would watch the fuck out of this.
I've been beating that drum ever since Thrones ended.

Animated ASOIAF that closely adapts the books and their assortment of characters and subplots. I think show only viewers would be surprised at how different things are in detail, even if some broad strokes are familiar.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,337
Sydney
How many people would be interested in a new adaptation of the books, perhaps in animated form? More faithful to the books. Something like the Castlevania TV show, but with HBO and more budget (I suppose)? I would watch the fuck out of this.

I think that would be cool, since a lot of the production problems would go away.

Of course, the core problem of the books being unfinished would have to be rectified.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,714
Insanely reductive summary. Of course you can make it sound like the show used all the book material when you barely mention any of the book material that was excised from the show.

fAegon - AKA the character that it is likely going to make Danaerys' heel-turn make a lick of sense.
Lady Stoneheart wreaking havoc with some major characters
Wyman Manderly and an actually-good northern plotline.
Everything in Dorne, from Doran's multiple failed attempts to marry off his offspring to Targaryens, to the Sand Snakes' failed rebellions
Oldtown and Archmaester Harwyn's plot to snuff out dragons, working in concert with the Faceless Men
Euron's plot to steal command of a Dragon through blood magic
etc. etc.

All this material is just "Nothing to work with" I suppose
I'm sorry to inform you the existence of a lot of that superfluous shit is part of the reason we haven't had a book in 10 years.
 

CrichtonKicks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,340
I don't a watch a lot of animation but would that actually be possible, as in length of episodes, scale etc. while being profitable?

Probably not. To be a faithful adaptation it requires more length, not less. You are talking probably 10 seasons of hour long episodes. Outside of anime the only shows with such long runs are the half hour comedy shows. Even inside anime, I'm not even sure there is anything comparable out there outside of the really long running Shonen shows.
 

Griffith

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,585
What was the original Sansa plot?

Obviously I can't do it justice, but her story in the show is more or less the same as the books up until Season 4 and since then she has basically remained in the Eyrie under the guise of Littlefinger's bastard daughter where she becomes a pawn in his scheme to take advantage of Lysa's love for him, take the Eyrie from her and eventually have her marry the heir to the Vale of Arryn and march to Winterfell and take it back.

In the Winds of Winter preview chapter she had begun to try to charm the heir to the Vale at Littlefinger's request.

To put it in short, she's mostly still used as a political pawn as she had been in the early seasons of the show, but in the books she starts to learn the same sort of manipulative techniques that she saw being used against others by lying and trying to manipulate others to gain herself some political advantages and she starts to accurately pick up on the tactics Littlefinger uses to gain power.

Again, I probably didn't do it justice and I'm sure others could explain it better than I. If you want a better summary of her story I recommend visiting https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Sansa_Stark
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,583
also like. I don't have to explain how fucked it is that D&D were thinking about Ramsay raping Sansa in season 2 when Sophie Turner was, what, 14, right? and that's on top of the attempted rape they already dumped on Sansa that season that, guess what, WASN'T IN THE BOOKS. it's disgusting.
 

najaschade

Alt-Account
Banned
Oct 13, 2021
123
D+D are just talentless hacks and not any of the other talent behind that show could safe the whole thing. It's a shame but that's how it is.

This is how people reacted to The Long Night. I saw it in a theater with about 25 other people and everyone loved it. It is a more recent thing that people complain about that episode too. People fucking loved it in the moment. At the time, people complained about how dark the episode was and that was pretty much it.
Come on you know that is bullshit. People hated that episode immediately. I mean yes, some people did only start hating it like 4 weeks later after the whole thing turned out to be a complete shitshow, but it was certainly a far cry from how fans reacted to the show just a few years prior. I fucking hate basically anything they've done with the last season and even I found myself defending it in the week afterwards.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
D+D are just talentless hacks and not any of the other talent behind that show could safe the whole thing. It's a shame but that's how it is.


Come on you know that is bullshit. People hated that episode immediately. I mean yes, some people did only start hating it like 4 weeks later after the whole thing turned out to be a complete shitshow, but it was certainly a far cry from how fans reacted to the show just a few years prior. I fucking hate basically anything they've done with the last season and even I found myself defending it in the week afterwards.

that's not true at all. People liked the episode. It was way too dark but people liked it. Let's stop trying to rewrite history.

and it's not just reactors, but eve still new reactors watching the show now get hype for the long night.
 

devilhawk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,536
Season 5 was the first part of the Braavos debacle with Arya. Guarantee that is one major reason GRMM lost confidence.
 

Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,836
Hull, UK
I can't believe people are actually defending the writing choices of men who said with their own mouths the words "themes are for eighth grade book reports". wild. like that alone should disqualify anything they write from serious consideration.

Oh there's plenty of blame to throw D+D's way for how the story went, but I'll say this in their favour. They can actually finish the story.

It's been over ten years since Book 5 came out. I don't want to hear GRRM shittalking how others have progressed on his story when he fucking can't, and he almost certainly won't ever progress on it.
 
OP
OP
UltraMagnus

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
George is not a perfectionist. He has a large body of prior work he has had no problem finishing.

The reason he can't finish it is because he wrote something too unwieldly and expansive and can't stick the landing.

The ending is there though, he just has some of mental block going on there. Still I don't think that excuses D&D, they wanted to bail out but still wanted the credit of seeing the series through to the end.

It was impossible to have both. You either stay and do it right or you leave and let someone else do it properly.

There's way too much story given to them by GRRM to properly and no where enough time to properly tell that story in just two shortened seasons. Not based on the first 6 seasons. You can't just radically change the pace of a show in season 7.
 

Fanuilos

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,199
Have to wonder if HBO & GRRM have talked about retrying it, but man it just sucks. So much was working in the shows favor up to even the end but it was just squandered.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,441
i say the same thing in every GoT thread, apologies for being a broken record. but this is essentially what i've been saying, if GoT had to end great it'd have to be at least 3 or so more seasons to phase out. that would mean nuking the show with money considering all the contractural obligations that'd involve

it just wasn't feasible. it had to end so they ended it
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,092
Houston
The ending is there though, he just has some of mental block going on there. Still I don't think that excuses D&D, they wanted to bail out but still wanted the credit of seeing the series through to the end.

It was impossible to have both. You either stay and do it right or you leave and let someone else do it properly.

There's way too much story given to them by GRRM to properly and no where enough time to properly tell that story in just two shortened seasons. Not based on the first 6 seasons. You can't just radically change the pace of in season 7.
Sure if by mental block you mean, trying to get paid to do other shit. Like 3 or 4 different song of ice and fire TV show spin offs. Several video games, a completely different song of ice and fire book about the targayeons. And some others I'm forgetting.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,714
News to me. Do you know George personally or are you just making stuff up?
This is the guy that keeps erasing and writing over his own work because he doesn't plan ahead. What's there to make up? We know, for a fact, that there was supposed to be a big timeskip from book 3 to book 4, and that he wrote a good chunk of it, and then changed his mind and had to start writing AFFC all over from scratch. We know, because he told us himself, that book 5 took a long time to come out because he didn't know how to get Dany out of Meereen. And he keeps overstuffing the books with new characters and plotlines, when they're already pretty crowded and overly convoluted.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,232
that's not true at all. People liked the episode. It was way too dark but people liked it. Let's stop trying to rewrite history.

and it's not just reactors, but eve still new reactors watching the show now get hype for the long night.
Depends what you mean by "people" and if internet discussion counts. I vividly remember the episode being divisive in the era thread as it aired, so much that some posters claimed they were leaving the thread because it was being drowned out by people that didn't like it.

www.resetera.com

Game of Thrones S8, Apr 14-May 19 @9PM EDT |OT| Aunt-Man and the Frost

I know right ? Like you talk up this supernatural threat and it's basically nothing! Oh well back to petty squabbles about land! The whole concept was that we need to rise above the petty squabbles Oh boy! More scenes of Cersei drinking and smirking and saying mean things!
 

najaschade

Alt-Account
Banned
Oct 13, 2021
123
that's not true at all. People liked the episode. It was way too dark but people liked it. Let's stop trying to rewrite history.
Yeah, some people probably did like it. But a sizeable portion of the fanbase immediately didn't like it and even more turned on it within a few weeks. As I've said a far cry from the height of the shows success.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,764
The ending is there though, he just has some of mental block going on there. Still I don't think that excuses D&D, they wanted to bail out but still wanted the credit of seeing the series through to the end.

It was impossible to have both. You either stay and do it right or you leave and let someone else do it properly.
I don't why we're talking about either side having to be excused. They all fucked up.

GRRM couldn't pull his weight and never would have as we're still waiting on Winds. D&D had pretty much mentally checked out after the RW/Oberyn cause they never truly cared about the series beyond it. They never signed up to be the ones to have to finish the story and without the books to follow it made it all the easier for them to be over and done with it and give in to their worst storytelling impulses.
 
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Depends what you mean by "people" and if internet discussion counts. I vividly remember the episode being divisive in the era thread as it aired, so much that some posters claimed they were leaving the thread because it was being drowned out by people that didn't like it.

www.resetera.com

Game of Thrones S8, Apr 14-May 19 @9PM EDT |OT| Aunt-Man and the Frost

I know right ? Like you talk up this supernatural threat and it's basically nothing! Oh well back to petty squabbles about land! The whole concept was that we need to rise above the petty squabbles Oh boy! More scenes of Cersei drinking and smirking and saying mean things!

Fair but I don't take ERA as indicative of the feelings at large. It's not this universally hated episode people here would like to claim.