Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
That usually happens to the least popular of the two competing consoles. You could also say the most hardcore Nintendo fans were the ones who bought a Wii U.
 

Deleted member 12186

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
1,467
Doesn't Nintendo have high attach rates?

What is a hardcore gamer? Why do we need labels like these anyways? Wouldn't one be able to fluidly move from hardcore gamer to more casual gamer? Do people mean competitive or professional gamer that takes everything seriously?
 

Kolx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,505
That's weird statement. If he said the Xone has a higher hardcore to casuals ratio then I can buy that. But saying thet have been on your side indicate there're more hardcores on Xone than on ps4 which seems highly unlikely? Greenberg gonna Greenberg I guess.
 

Sola1r3

Member
Jun 20, 2018
130
It is such a shame to see all the good work Phil Spencer does in PR be ruined by Greenberg. What he is saying does not match today's Xbox and it's ridiculous in my opinion how he is still allowed to run wild with statements like these.
 

Smokey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,179
Ugh. Another cringeworthy statement from Greenberg.

But I'll bite. This statement needs proof, in my opinion: "sales data for many games are much higher on Xbox"

Many games sell more on Xbox you say? Okay, name them.

Name the multiplatform games also available on PS4 that have sold more on Xbox. We'll wait.

Aaron Greenberg is not going to name them just because modsbox says so. He's an executive in the Xbox division. I'm sure he has access to tons of data. Just like they have access that says Game Pass is actually getting people to buy more games vs not, and some people around here were like "that's impossible"!

Greenberg never fails to get under some of you guys skins.

Hardcore/casual we know what he means. Don't take it so personally.

It's amusing to watch, at least.
 
Oct 25, 2017
17,946
Isn't Zhuge's statement based on Ubisoft's report IIRC which is few years old?
Nah, he has said that it still applies on a broad scale (not limited to a single publisher or area).

All it means is that the PS4 has a much wider reach and that the Xbox has a greater concentration of people that just really want a Xbox. Like, consider how the PS4 has grown in places like the Middle East and is the current market leader in China. The PS4 is partly reaching folk who have never even been properly served in the console space before. It is a great thing but it also means those buyers are not going to be similar to the more "hardcore" buyers in terms of purchase decisions.

It goes back to what Greenberg said about Xbox having a higher attach rate. The Xbox users are buying Xbox specifically to play particular games (MP/online focused games) and I don't think that is the case for PS4. Or rather, just not to the same extent as Xbox. The type of buyers for PS4 are more varied and the taste for games is as well. This means the overall userbase is more diluted since it has so many different types of buyers buying different games.

Basically, both come with their advantages and disadvantages.

PS4 - Much higher overall userbase (big revenue due to numbers)/lower metrics like player activity, retention, and attach rate.
X1 - Considerably higher metrics in player activity, retention, attach rate, etc... (big revenue due to each individual)/Much lower overall userbase

The strength essentially makes up for the weaknesses in both cases.

If he's not wrong then how come this site isn't heavily skewed towards Xbox? Or are we all filthy casuals here on this gaming site we talk about gaming and other casual gaming news casually?
Because PS4 and Switch are the more popular consoles. That doesn't contradict what Greenberg is saying though. He is talking specifically about the core Xbox userbase and their activity on the platform.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Aaron Greenberg is not going to name them just because modsbox says so. He's an executive in the Xbox division. I'm sure he has access to tons of data. Just like they have access that says Game Pass is actually getting people to buy more games vs not, and some people around here were like "that's impossible"!



It's amusing to watch, at least.
if you trust what he says I have a bridge to sell you. He's been peddling bullshit for years and is definitely unreliable.
 

ElMexiMerican

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,508
I feel like attach rates and sales don't necessarily correlate to what hardcore means in my mind. At first I thought he was simply referring to "hardcore Xbox" players, which I could sort of see. It seems he means "hardcore" players in a cross-platform sense though. I'd be interested to know what other data he has to back up his claim (if he has other data).
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,170
Minneapolis
I'll never understand how people get all twisted by what guys like Greenberg say.

*He's * the * director * of * marketing *

It's literally his job to try and make a product look better than it might actually be, just like all marketers of all products.

Get over it.
 

Lurcharound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,077
UK
"sides" huh? Guess he didn't get the memo from Spencer. Classy as ever from Greenberg. If MS really want to look open and inclusive they should really re-consider Greenberg's role IMHO as he doesn't fit with the senior narrative at all these days.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2,753
I'll never understand how people get all twisted by what guys like Greenberg say.

*He's * the * director * of * marketing *

It's literally his job to try and make a product look better than it might actually be, just like all marketers of all products.

Get over it.

Nobody likes fanboys. No one cares what's his job is
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
User Banned (3 Days): Continued pattern of system warring; previous infractions
Honestly

I'm starting to think that Aaron Greenberg is a real life casualty of the fictional console wars. He seems hurt. Damged even. Like he never quite got over or accepted Sony's dominance this gen. To the point where he sometimes creates his own reality to compensate and ease his bewilderment.


 

Dorfdad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
731
Bullshit all the hardcore players have moved on to switch and iOS! Get out of here with that crap Greenberg
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
I'll never understand how people get all twisted by what guys like Greenberg say.

*He's * the * director * of * marketing *

It's literally his job to try and make a product look better than it might actually be, just like all marketers of all products.

Get over it.

I can't help it. It's self-loathing. I want to be hardcore, and I want to be on his side but I just can't cut it.
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
Aaron Greenberg is not going to name them just because modsbox says so. He's an executive in the Xbox division. I'm sure he has access to tons of data. Just like they have access that says Game Pass is actually getting people to buy more games vs not, and some people around here were like "that's impossible"!

We get EU sales data weekly and you'll be hard pressed to come up with 10 games out the thousands that have been released that sold better on XBOX. In the UK were talking a 70% average is PS4. And in the rest of Europe you'd again be hard pressed to find XBOX sales of said games selling well enough to chart.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,942
If only they would talk more about their use base being more socially engaged (real world) and those features imthat make their fan base strong. They have a survey on the Insider hub about charitable giving via Xbox (like Amazon Smile). Why not talk about that and how their audience is primed to support goood causes?

This Warrior why stinks.
Uh they do. Phil tweets those nice things all the time
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,545
He's been this sort of fanboy dipshit since the Xbox 360 got big, so it's not really a surprise that he's still up for slinging some shit for no real reason.
 

Deleted member 36622

User requested account closure
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Dec 21, 2017
6,639
He should have said "hardcore fans" and that's true: hardcore Xbox fans are still with them.

But hardcore players in general, he's soo wrong: i bet if you sum hardcore players in EU + Asia you have a bigger audience than the hardcore players in US.

Outside of America, Xbox is, to put it gently, extremely niche.
 

Kyrios

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,958
3odIyYS.png
 

SK4TE

Banned
Nov 26, 2017
3,977
Honestly

I'm starting to think that Aaron Greenberg is a real life casualty of the fictional console wars. He seems hurt. Damged even. Like he never quite got over or accepted Sony's dominance this gen. To the point where he sometimes creates his own reality to compensate and ease his bewilderment.


Or he gets paid to do it, just a hunch.
 
Dec 12, 2017
587
I think this greatly depends on your definition of hardcore.

If Greenberg means the kind of players that frequent places like Neogaf, ResetEra, listen to game podcasts...etc. He's wrong.


If he means players that are into largely competitive / online games, he's probably correct if you're not counting the PC.
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,483
Brazil
Honestly

I'm starting to think that Aaron Greenberg is a real life casualty of the fictional console wars. He seems hurt. Damged even. Like he never quite got over or accepted Sony's dominance this gen. To the point where he sometimes creates his own reality to compensate and ease his bewilderment.


This is what happens when you only talk with tim dog and crapgamer about consumer satisfaction
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,099
Dec 4, 2017
11,483
Brazil
When I think of Greenberg, I think of these choice articles.

Certainly conducts himself very professionally. We can trust him.
man,I missed so much for buying a Ps3 only in 2010
this is gold
Edit:
17my33yqob4tljpg.jpg


tonight, Aaron Greenberg's playing the P.I.M.P. with a couple of Penthouse Pets, discussing the kinda shit he likes to get up to in the hot-tub. Yes, really. Sadly the vid's not embeddable, so you'll have to hit the link.

In Bed With The Pets: Aaron Greenberg, Part II
The world certainly changed in the past 10 years.


"The reality is that Xbox 360 is leading this generation with a larger installed base, more than 2xs the games library, the most exclusives along with the leading online service and community. While we have not yet announced all of our plans for the full year, I am confident that we will extend our lead over the PS3 in 2008. Today Xbox 360 has a 5-million-unit console sales lead on a global basis based on most recently public reported data from both companies. This includes more than double the installed base in the US according to actual NPD sell-through and over a 1-million-unit lead across Europe also based on reported sell-through from Chart Track and GfK.

The days of Sony snowing the consumers and the press are over, I think the pressure is now really on them more than ever to deliver on all of these promises."


Think back to GDC 2007 when Sony promised to leap ahead in online with the Sony Home unveil. Here we are two years later and multiple delays for a product that has appears to have little to no buzz. Where are the achievements? The friends list integration across all games? Where is the long-promised video store? Where are all the other products using and networking with their CELL chip? How come Blu-ray did not result in better games? What happened with Sixaxis and rumble? Where is the complete 1080p game library we were promised? If Blu-ray as they said would be such a catalyst to PS3 console sales, then why have PS3 sales over the past couple months not seen any lift since the format victory?

Then three years ago at E3 they showed what PS3 games would supposedly look like with the Killzone 2 video, that we are now learning will ship four years later. That means that we will have shipped Gears of War and Gears of War 2 before they can even get Killzone out the door

He is not wrong, but I wonder if he has the same level of criticism towards his own team
 
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Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
We've had this thread before, haven't we?

To help put Greenberg's words in to context, yes, strictly speaking he's correct. The XBO's numbers do over-perform what you would expect simply based on the raw number of consoles sold in comparison to the PS4.

But, that's normal. Usually, the smaller an install base, the more committed that user base is to a platform. The first 10 million users will always be more active than the next 10 million users, and so on. If the PS4 and XBO install base were reversed, we would, in all likelihood, be hearing the same things from Sony that Greenberg is saying now.

That's not to downplay this fact. Xbox does have a very committed user base, and that's a good thing for the brand. It would absolutely be possible for users to have abandoned Xbox after buying the One, and that largely hasn't happened. They are in a good position right now to possibly regain some degree of marketshare in the next gen.
 

OG_Thrills

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,655
This is what happens when you only talk with tim dog and crapgamer about consumer satisfaction

I'd be willing to bet Greenberg gets on a podcast with Mooch, Timdog, and Crapgamer between now and Scarletts launch. I really believe that he's been adversely affected by PS performance this gen because.

He went from boastful to nonsensical in the space of a year. 2012 - 2013 is definitely a factor in what we're seeing now.

Edit

Now I'm certain the hearty servings of humble pie he's been forced to eat, publicly, is weighing on dudes mind heavily.

When I think of Greenberg, I think of these choice articles.

Certainly conducts himself very professionally. We can trust him.

What a difference a gen makes.
 
Last edited:

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,170
Minneapolis
I was curious about the context of the quote - - So I translated the (actually kind of interesting) article from IGN Italia that is linked in the OP article. See if you notice anything missing in this translation vs. what was quoted in the English article. This makes me curious. EDIT: Oh hey this is only page 1 of 2. BRB LOL

There's some funky translation quirks, but you get the picture.

"Xbox One X, Xbox Live, Xbox Game Pass, Xbox Play Anywhere, a new console and the dreamy possibilities of the cloud and streaming. The future of Xbox branded video games seems to point straight towards innovation and a free, versatile, without limitation method of fruition with an ever-watchful eye on the desires of the community.

In what position is Microsoft at this time and how will it address the next challenges of the video game industry? These are the main themes of the chat we did with Aaron Greenberg, head of marketing for the Redmond company's video game division, at Gamescom 2018. Good reading, Friends of IGN Italy!

IGN Italia: Can you explain to us in detail the Xbox strategy for the future? In which direction do you see the brand in the next five years? Apparently your intention is to unify the brand by embracing all the technologies: Windows 10, Xbox One X, the new console that you announced at E3 and play via streaming/cloud...

Aaron Greenberg: Our strategy is that players have the opportunity to play the games they want, with the people they want, on every device they want. Of course we will continue to innovate in console with new hardware, we want to continue to have a "premium" position on that market, but we also want to exploit the opportunity to reach more players by embracing other types of devices. It has been so in the past with investment in PC video games, especially Xbox Play Anywhere, an initiative that we will continue to support by publishing our titles simultaneously on Xbox and Windows 10, without asking any additional payment to users to play on both platforms. We'll do the same with the cloud and streaming: we want to give users the ability to live an experience like that on consoles on any device. It's a really interesting prospect, as far as I'm concerned. Think of gears Pop!, we took the gears franchise and we created something suitable for the mobile environment. The key thing in this talk is that we haven't dragged the series from consoles to smartphones, but we've devised a video game that was supposed to be a very good mobile title first. Accomplishing such a thing with the Gears characters leveraging an important collaboration like the one with Funko is really a unique opportunity. We are always looking for new ways to accomplish this type of products, because they allow us to enlarge the catchment area of a franchise like Gears. In fact we are looking for a way to do things like that even with our other series, because we know that gamers spend more and more time playing not only at home, but also in mobility.

IGN Italia: With Xbox Game Pass you have created a new standard for the gaming industry, a service that comes close to Netflix's canons. How do you plan to improve and grow this strategy? For example, are you considering a subscription plan with Xbox Live, Xbox Game Pass and the rental of consoles included in a single fee?

Aaron Greenberg: Very good question. Yes, Xbox Game Pass is great and it's doing very well. I think the opportunity to give our users more choices and a service of great value is really important. In particular, here in Europe we have noticed a great match against Xbox Game Pass, but to answer your question, it depends very much on the markets. There are some markets that are more likely to subscribe to such services because the habit of paying a subscription to watch movies or listen to streaming music is much more entrenched. We are open to all possibilities, we always wonder what makes sense to improve our offer, we always talk with our fans asking what they want from the Xbox. That's how we got to where we are now. There are many options to offer such packages, as there are also many possibilities to offer more content with Xbox Game Pass. We have noticed that many of our partners use the service to reach a totally new slice of users with their products. Let's take the case of Fallout 4, for example: the fact that it's part of the Xbox Game Pass can pave the way for players who have never had contact with the franchise, and maybe push them to buy Fallout 76. Strategically the service also has many benefits for our partners and expanding our audience and enlarging this ecosystem we will have the opportunity to create more and more attractive content. Xbox Game Pass is a great thing for all developers.

IGN Italia: Speaking of Xbox One X, beyond the marketing agreements for some prominent titles such as Shadow of the Tomb Raider and Fallout 76, how does communication with third party studios work? Do you perceive a genuine interest in what is currently the most powerful console on the market or are you always in touch with developers to try to get better graphics performance than PlayStation 4 Pro?

Aaron Greenberg: We have a few people working with developers and we always get good feedback in this regard. The developers always want their games to turn to the best and since ours is the most powerful console on the market, 40% more powerful than all the others, automatically all the titles will always turn to a better resolution, reaching the true 4k, and with the More stable frame rate. Among third party developers there is always a great desire to show games on our platform and this is a great privilege for us. But of course there is always the business side of the speech, there is the interest in marketing agreements. This year we have a higher number of partnerships than we have done in the past and in fact at the E3 2018 conference we showed the greatest number of third party games of our history at the Los Angeles Fair. There is a large amount of publishers and software houses that want to work with us and I think this is due to our "premium" position with Xbox One X. Even Sony has partnerships that allow him to show certain titles on their consoles, but I sincerely believe that even Red Dead Redemption 2, FIFA 19 and Call of Duty: Black Ops 4 will turn better on our console, to tell the truth all the Outgoing games will be better on Xbox One X. This puts us in a really interesting position of the market, especially against hardcore gamers." If he said what they say he said, it seems like it would go here. But it's not in the linked article.

translated using Bing translation. Bing! Gotta get those sweet free Xbox credits. LOL
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Wtf does hardcore even mean, really?
The users who are the last to abandon a product.

In general, there are two situations where hardcore users are the majority;

1. When the product is relatively new/expensive, and as such the wider market haven't jumped in yet. As a VR supporter, I say that's where virtual reality is in right now.

2. When the product is in decline, with the wider market leaving while the hardcore stayed. This is the case with Sega Saturn, PS Vita, and the Wii U.

Note that Nintendo recovered from Wii U via the Switch. But it is up to other people to decide if Xb1 deserves to be in category 2.
 

Deleted member 25108

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,877
Statistically he's not - the highest attach rate to date* is held by PS2 - so either hardcore don't have higher ownership in the end, or PS2 was more hardcore console than 360 in the end.
*PS4 will beat that by end of its life-cycle.


We know for PS4.

Attach rate doesn't tell all the story, especially in today's age of service based games.

Someone who plays Destiny, R6: Siege, Fornite, COD and Fifa and buys MT for all of them is still seen as more "engaged" than someone who buys every Sony single player exclusive but buys none.

Comparing the PS2 to today's market makes no sense because there are so many more ways to sell to customers past the initial point of sale now.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,458
Honestly

I'm starting to think that Aaron Greenberg is a real life casualty of the fictional console wars. He seems hurt. Damged even. Like he never quite got over or accepted Sony's dominance this gen. To the point where he sometimes creates his own reality to compensate and ease his bewilderment.

I really believe that he's been adversely affected by PS performance this gen because he went from boastful to nonsensical in the space of a year. 2012 - 2013 is definitely a factor in what we're seeing now.

Come on man... he's the head of marketing. It's literally his job to find a way to boast about the performance of Xbox and why everything is great and shiny rainbows. It's literally his job. I know you don't like the guy - you've made that clear. But let's not stoop to levels of suggesting that someone is... damaged or unstable because they're bigging up the platform they work for in the press/on social media. When that's their job. You don't need to get that personal. It's videogames.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
I'm sure he has. Just like all PR folks. He also has access to data that we don't, so who knows where it begins and ends.

If anything he's using fudged statistics, but before the npd stopped listing the order off the consoles in sales threads of how the distribution was for each game, Xbox rarely was first.
 

Hellshy

Member
Nov 5, 2017
1,174
Aaron Greenberg is not going to name them just because modsbox says so. He's an executive in the Xbox division. I'm sure he has access to tons of data. Just like they have access that says Game Pass is actually getting people to buy more games vs not, and some people around here were like "that's impossible"!



It's amusing to watch, at least.

He won't say it just because internet guy said so but probably would if he really had data showing multiple games selling better on Xbox vs ps4. Reasons he wouldn't do so is (a) it's only a few games and that would open a can of worms , or (b) the games he speaks of were released on Xbox first.

Also what they say might be true about gamepass but We know Netflix sure isn't getting more people to buy blu rays of movies and tv shows . Most likely the people buying games are ones canceling the sub of game pass .
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,170
Minneapolis
Page 2 of the article (highlighted the part that's being debated):

"IGN Italia: Xbox has always had a great community thanks to Xbox Live: What will be the next step of your online platform?

AG: We are always looking for new ways to innovate our online infrastructure. I've been on Xbox for 18 years and I remember the first steps of Xbox Live, it's part of our DNA together with the community relationship. Not only on Live, but also on social media there is a strong link with our users, and it is something we are very proud of. We really listen to our community, we can safely say that we are a company obsessed with users, much more than the competition. This will always lead us to innovate and, for example, is why we have invested a lot on backwards compatibility, because the players demanded it loudly. Also for this we have added to Xbox One not only the games of Xbox 360, but also those of the first Xbox. Xbox One S, Xbox Game Pass and many other ideas are born because we listen to our fans. The next step will be to play via streaming/cloud and we are pioneers in this sense: as a company we are in the position and the condition to implement such technology, but we always listen to our fans to understand how they want to live the experience of Game. In this sense Xbox Game Pass, as always, is a great example: players were looking for a way to have unlimited access to a library of titles, we met that need with a subscription and the download of titles putting into practice our "know how" Technological. For Xbox innovation will always be a marriage between the desires of the players and the best experiences and technologies possible.

IGN: On Xbox Live I have a long list of friends and the thing I always know, at the release of every important game for PC, PlayStation 4 and Xbox One, is that most players buy the news right away, not letting anything escape. I like the feeling that the Xbox user is much more accustomed to the purchase of the big games, always on the piece when it comes to capturing trendy video games. Is Overwatch out? Everyone is on Overwatch. Is that something you also notice? Do you think you've managed to keep the hardcore status of the first Xbox community intact?

AG: I notice the exact same thing also on my friends list and the data we have available suggest exactly that. Hardcore gamers, those who prefer the best gaming experience, have always been on our side, from the first Xbox to the Xbox 360 and now with Xbox One X. Looking at the numbers and the results of the competition, we have a smaller installed base, but the data from the Attach rate and sales of many games are much higher on Xbox. This is due to the fact that our user is made up of more hardcore gamers, and back to the first speech: it is our relationship with the community that puts us in this position. We are at Gamescom especially for our users and the Xbox Fan Fest and we carry out such activities around the world. Together with Phil Spencer we are always very attentive to this aspect, it is really important to spend time with our fans and we will continue to do so, it is part of our way of being.

IGN: On Twitter you stated that Red Dead Redemption 2 will turn to "true 4k" on Xbox One X. Are you really convinced of your statement? The most anticipated and ambitious game of the generation will turn into 4k natives on your console?

AG: For precise technical specifications you should ask the developers. The first Red Dead Redemption runs in 4k native on Xbox One X and compares the two versions of the game in the analysis as those of Digital Foundry I'm sure that the second chapter will turn better on Xbox One x. Our console was built precisely for this reason: each component of Xbox One X (The CPU, the GPU, the RAM) was designed to reach the 4k. And we also know that the developers want and can always draw the best from our console. To respect the software house I don't want to divulge the specs, but I'm absolutely sure that Red Dead Redemption 2 will turn better on Xbox One X, just like all the other games. We analyzed all the third party games last year and each of these, without exception, was doing better on our console. We will always continue in this direction not only with the exclusive, but also with the multiplatform games, and we always do it keeping in mind the desires of our hardcore players."
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,147
Well yeah, the least successful a product is, the bigger the percentage of hardcore people it will have.

That's pretty standard stuff.
 

Kittenz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,170
Minneapolis
So, in fairness (page two) he's pretty strongly led into the hardcore-ness by IGN interviewer. Kinda hard at that point to say "Nah. We ain't hardcore."