Grapplers, are they doomed to be shit-tier forever? How would you fix them in modern fighters?
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If you know Tekken throw system, grapplers throw mixups are much harder to escape (you have to guess) than anything else and an integral part of their gameplan because of the threat they pose. Marduk tackle and King full swing are legendary for this. They definitely deserve to be in the discussion.
I do know Tekken's throw system and their "grapplers" have the weakest actual throw game in the archetype. A 1/3 escape option that you can see once trained (regardless of King having one that looks like a 1+2 break while being a 1 break) is still much less threatening than an inescapable throw. Nevermind the fact that you can duck or step the throw attempts as well, which are both lower risk options than jumping in a 2D game.
We don't compare the strenghts of 2D grapplers against 3D grapplers here, but how strong they are in their respective games. They don't play the same as 2D ones, but there are grapplers archetype in 3D games and they are not weak nonetheless. So yeah, we can talk about them.
See Accent Core Potemkin. Give them some decent hitboxes, good anti-air, mixup with easy knockdown that leads to another mixup, a move that allows them to reliably close the distance, like Hammerfall, and give them a move to deal with projectiles.
But imo, grapplers should never be anywhere close to the top tier because of the nature of their gameplan.
But imo, grapplers should never be anywhere close to the top tier because of the nature of their gameplan.
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If the question posed is about 2D grapplers and how to "fix" them, I don't think bringing in the weakest grappler throw game is the solution. Unless you think homogenizing the roster and changing how the command throws work fundamentally in 2D games is the move (give everyone a command throws but make command throws significantly weaker). But you do you.
There is nothing to fix as the consensus here is that they're not weak, 2D or 3D. Don't put things in my mouth about homogenizing the roster or that 3D system is the solution.
Lowerd end of the mid tier. More of a noob killer than a menace against top players.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVdKfdlPCPg
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This was the beta SNES version.
But still grapplers in SF2 are scary
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHb4vNruEAI
The game's universal systems help too. In SF4 grapplers were pretty fun to use because FADC gave them some extra mobility when it came to fireballs (same for the parry in SF3). Then there's SF2 where they could practically zone because the grab range was so large lol (and T Hawk and Honda didn't even have whiff animations)
I cannot wait for PS1 to be added to Fightcade so that I can run some beautiful ass roll back SFEX2+ online
I cannot wait for PS1 to be added to Fightcade so that I can run some beautiful ass roll back SFEX2+ online
Hyun Sai has already given an answer, but going further the thread isn't about 2D grapplers.
Nothing in the OP states 2D only, and while the example the OP gives is Street Fighter, the thread is explicit about not talking that specifically by making it clear the threads scope is "various fighting games over the years" of which 3D fighters are most definitely included.
If you can quote where exactly the OP talks about how the thread is about 2D grapplers, go for it, but I don't see anything in the OP limiting it to 2D fighters.
Grapplers in 3D fighting games aren't inherently problematic because everyone plays at range 0-1. It's as simple as that.
Jubei is so sick, I have no idea how he never came back ever again aside from random background cameos. So fun to use.
Sure, why not? I'll look at the OP again to see where I got this impression:
Shotos and zoners don't exist in 3D fighters.
Different sized HP amounts don't exist in 3D fighters.
In addition to the examples the OP gave, it sure does seem like the OP is talking about grapplers in 2D games. Furthermore, the division of gameplay styles is not as pronounced in 3D fighting games as it is in 2D fighting games. So again, talking about how Tekken's pseudo-grapplers do it is a waste of time because they barely even fit the bill at all.
Correct. Along with the entire roster having command throws, all of those throws can be escaped, and evaded easier. There isn't a modern fighting game where command throws are less threatening than Tekken.
But back on topic, I think the SNK way is probably the best way to approach it.
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If you really want to make every non-grappler player scared turn Zangief into a "true" wrestler and let him grab/pin characters who have been knocked down. Turn his regular grabs into holds that do damage over time and can chain into other moves. Make it so the other player has to engage in a button mashing war to break out of it.
Don't let a grappler lie to you, because once they're in, they're a pain if they get the right reads with mental stacks.
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It's why I hate Laura. After her throw, she's minus on a dash and you're responds is to jab check only for it to be her CC HP because the animation is similar to her dashing.
Then you have Mika's drop kick. Plus on block when charged but uncharged she remains in neutral and will use EX Peach for neutral jumping to punish the charged version
I can't tell if you're joking, but that might do it, yeah.
Even if they have a slow moving projectile just to cover space