Giant Bomb asked Cory Barlog about recent Labor Issue debate in video game industry

[Hippo_PRIME]

The problem when everybody is #passionate is that then people are wondering why you're not as #passionate and then maybe you're not a good #culture fit.

Click to shrink...

This is a good post. When Cory keeps talking about people being there late, redoing art, etc. because they care, there is an implication that the people who aren't there at 3am either don't care or, at least, care less.

I work in software (not game development) and my company is super guilty of this. My priority is always going to be my marriage. During our "crunch" times, I'll put in 12 hour days and then go home to spend time on what actually matters to me. My company has definitely made comments to me (and others like me) that they expect...more. "More" is nebulous, but the message seems to be that an employee is expected to be an employee first, ride-or-die for the company, and anything else second.

I get the same vibes from what Cory said here. It's gross. These employees likely work to support a life outside of work, whatever that life looks like. To imply that those people don't care as much as the 3am workers is insulting.

 

[Orb]

A lot of developers who are really passionate about their product will work longer hours and put much more work into the product than those who don't.

Yes, some studio's management staff will drive their workers to work overtime (although this is not really forced in my experience), but I don't think it's super widespread, it may be a case of very bad bigger companies making everyone else look bad (EA). Sometimes they will work harder because if the project fails, they'll be out of a job, there are so many factors that have to be taken into account.

Click to shrink...

But all of that "passion" and fear of losing a job is driven by external factors, namely demanding publishers. There is nothing wrong with true passion for games and wanting to make something great. But that greatness does not have to come at the cost of your sanity, your family, and your life outside of a cubicle. If we are to believe that games are art, then why should that art be rushed?

 

[bigbluefrontend]

These kinds of answers tell me less about the interviewee and more about the interviewer. It's honestly pathetic at how perfunctory games journalists are when it comes to tackling the issue of working conditions within the games industry. Brad is an example of shit journalists incapable of following up and pressing the interviewee as opposed to accepting bullshit deflective cookie-cutter answers.

Edit: it's also incredibly hilarious to pontificate on the developer's passion whilst remuneration remains at a base level. The only individual benefiting from your so-called myopic passion is the publisher. They're not going to pay you more — and that's just where the problem lies. Not everyone can get away with being passionate and subsisting, so these so-called passionate developers decided to set a benchmark of doing more for less and the whole industry has to follow suit. Unionisation in late capitalist enterprise is paramount.

Click to shrink...

You know why? Because this laughably immature industry immediately blacklists any journalist who asks hard questions. Here's an example of an interview Gamasutra did with Bethesda during Rage's development where they were basically spewing PR nonsense and the interviewer called them out on their BS. They promptly got a letter saying they were blacklisted.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6500/the_creative_intent_of_rage.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37939/Opinion_Journalistic_Rage.php

 

[Khanimus]

"Passion" is a fucking meaningless value and should be of zero relevance to anyone but someone's own personal ambitions and growth.

Because the second you see one employee who has #passion versus another who doesn't, the person that doesn't choose to put their health and personal well-being at risk looks a lot less appealing. "Maybe I should hire more people who have passion versus those that aren't motivated enough to put their health at risk."

 

[Twig]

HA, Im joking around. You will get there. :D


Oh come on, this isn't the industrial revolution. They are fine. This isn't child labor chimney sweeps or textile workers. I

Just working long hours during the final push of a project. This is a managers problem to fix as they aren't running the project as strictly as they need to. If they start bleeding talent, then it will get fixed. If some developers are known for no crunch, then they will get top talent.

Click to shrink...

lol nope

 

[F4r0_Atak]

A lot of developers who are really passionate about their product will work longer hours and put much more work into the product than those who don't.

Yes, some studio's management staff will drive their workers to work overtime (although this is not really forced in my experience), but I don't think it's super widespread, it may be a case of very bad bigger companies making everyone else look bad (EA). Sometimes they will work harder because if the project fails, they'll be out of a job, there are so many factors that have to be taken into account.

Click to shrink...

This.

 

[Raven117]

lol nope

Click to shrink...

LOL, Yup.

 

[KalBalboa]

I feel like this thread is trying to make Cory a villain of some kind.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I got that impression too.

This isn't exactly the Rockstar wives scenario.

 

[bigbluefrontend]

Yeah this kind of stuff is what killed my interest in getting into the gaming industry. Your passion should be for your sake, not for the sake of a company to mine for profits.

Click to shrink...

It's pretty simple, really. If it's your own company, and you're working for yourself, it makes a lot of sense to put in those hours to build your dream.

Working 16 hours a day for EA?

 

[KORNdog]

guy asked him why people were there at 3 in the morning. and corey answered. essentially it's passion.

the questions wasn't specifically about unionisation. brad never mentioned that. corey can't answer a question he was never asked.

 

[Orb]

These kinds of answers tell me less about the interviewee and more about the interviewer. It's honestly pathetic at how perfunctory games journalists are when it comes to tackling the issue of working conditions within the games industry.

Click to shrink...

Just saying.

 

[Avis]

Are there any notable devs that don't crunch? Legit curious, this thread had me googling but I couldn't find anything.

 

[F4r0_Atak]

"Passion" is a fucking meaningless value and should be of zero relevance to anyone but someone's own personal ambitions and growth.

Because the second you see one employee who has #passion versus another who doesn't, the person that doesn't choose to put their health and personal well-being at risk looks a lot less appealing. "Maybe I should hire more people who have passion versus those that aren't motivated enough to put their health at risk."

Click to shrink...

Just so you know, passion is not a bad thing and should be of relevance, because it does help a lot to drive and lead a project in the right direction. Also, don't assume that a person with passion will choose to put their health and personal well-being at risk. People who will choose to do that are either bad at managing their time or are in charged of very important sections/roles.

Are there any notable devs that don't crunch? Legit curious, this thread had me googling but I couldn't find anything.

Click to shrink...

I don't think so.

 

[Orb]

Just so you know, passion is not a bad thing and should be of relevance, because it does help a lot to drive and lead a project in the right direction. Also, don't assume that a person with passion will choose to put their health and personal well-being at risk. People who will choose to do that are either bad at managing their time or are in charged of very important sections/roles.

Click to shrink...

You can't actually know this, though. Again, the only way you can possibly measure "passion" in terms of working hours effectively would be to remove all external motivators from the situation. Someone's "passion" might be strong but manifests itself in working overlong shifts just because their job is on the line.

Are there people out there who would work on a game for 18 hours straight if there wasn't a deadline and their livelihood didn't depend on it? Maybe. But are those people working on the latest Madden or Call of Duty at the mercy of huge machine like EA or Activision? Proably not.

 

[Twig]

LOL, Yup.

Click to shrink...

I mean, you're not only wrong, you're willfully ignorant if you truly believe what you say. You're ignoring the facts to suit your own story. You're talking like the CEOs who make often literally hundreds of times more money than the people fucking killing themselves to make a game.

In short: you can't be trusted, and I hope you're never in charge of anything ever. If you somehow are, well, I pity anyone who works for you. Poor suckers have got a real fuckin' problem being at the whims of someone like you.

 

[oatmeal]

I'm unsure on how the industry operates during early development.

I can't imagine crunch is a year round thing. What is the schedule like when they're not in crunch mode? Since these positions are salaries, if there was some sort of time compensation built up during slower periods (say, an extra week or two of vacation) that would help offset the crunch.

If it's a case where it's always crazy and only gets more crazy...yeah that's a problem.

 

[RedOnePunch]

this is such a delicate and difficult issue. Only the people working there know if it's a healthy work environment or not.

I've worked strict 9-5 jobs where we didn't work overtime but the environment was so unhealthy. Working long hours doesn't mean anything out of context

 

[Animal Liberation Ⓥ]

I feel like this thread is trying to make Cory a villain of some kind.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, it is very weird, but not unexpected/shocking after seeing some of the names who are painting him in that light.

 

[Raven117]

I mean, you're not only wrong, you're willfully ignorant if you truly believe what you say. You're ignoring the facts to suit your own story. You're talking like the CEOs who make often literally hundreds of times more money than the people fucking killing themselves to make a game.

In short: you can't be trusted, and I hope you're never in charge of anything ever. If you somehow are, well, I pity anyone who works for you. Poor suckers have got a real fuckin' problem being at the whims of someone like you.

Click to shrink...

LOL! Sweet summer child.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

OP doesn't get it.

I have an artist friend who sells his own paintings. He does whatever it takes from whatever inspirations he may have at whatever time of the day or night to do his thing. If you're making something you want people to like, you work your ass off, whether commisioned or to try and sell at a fair or show off at an art show. That's all Cory's saying. This isn't you or I going to work and trying to impress our bosses.

 

[Orb]

I feel like this thread is trying to make Cory a villain of some kind.

Click to shrink...

I don't think he's a villain, I think he's just misguided like a lot of the rest of the higher-up people in this industry. All throughout the thread we've discussed how "passion" is a misnomer and he just perpetuates that idea. Which is not unusual considering it is an ideal that has become insanely pervasive in the corporate world, especially when it comes to software development. It's a systemic issue and Cory is not the cause, but perhaps he should be a bit more introspective rather than just parroting "passion!" like so many others who apologize for crunch.

 

[MP!]

I am sorry, if you receive threat. I don't want to trivialize that... I probably did. I don't understand why people upset about a game target any one person or few persons and I also won't understand the feeling when a dev received those threats.

Click to shrink...

no I'm just stating generally ... I've never received threats but we read about it all the time...

My experience in the industry has all been extremely positive... even when working crunch. But I realize this depends on the studio... I have heard some pretty bad horror stories

 

[funky]

For every passionate developer goimg the extra mile how many are only there late because everyone else is and they don't want to look bad?

 

[shoemasta]

Ah, we are at this phase of the cycle.

 

[Roy]

I feel like this thread is trying to make Cory a villain of some kind.

Click to shrink...

Villain? No, just another cog in the working class squeeze machine.

 

[Expy]

But all of that "passion" and fear of losing a job is driven by external factors, namely demanding publishers. There is nothing wrong with true passion for games and wanting to make something great. But that greatness does not have to come at the cost of your sanity, your family, and your life outside of a cubicle. If we are to believe that games are art, then why should that art be rushed?

Click to shrink...

But Sony is not one of these demanding publishers, they will give you the time you need, but you better deliver. Money doesn't rain from the sky and if your project doesn't succeed then it's normal for those studios to be shut down. What Cory is saying is exactly this, the people there wanted to work more to make sure the game was up to their standards, they also wanted to hit their release date which they set themselves (he said this is an interview with KF or EZA).

Villain? No, just another cog in the working class squeeze machine.

Click to shrink...

What? He said it himself, those developers that worked extra hours did that on their own, and nobody asked them to do it. Some even decided on their own that their work wasn't good enough and started from scratch.

Sometimes dedication comes off as people being overworked, when in reality it's the people challenging themselves to be better.

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

I mean, you're not only wrong, you're willfully ignorant if you truly believe what you say. You're ignoring the facts to suit your own story. You're talking like the CEOs who make often literally hundreds of times more money than the people fucking killing themselves to make a game.

In short: you can't be trusted, and I hope you're never in charge of anything ever. If you somehow are, well, I pity anyone who works for you. Poor suckers have got a real fuckin' problem being at the whims of someone like you.

Click to shrink...

Damn son. That's a burn.

For every passionate developer goimg the extra mile how many are only there late because everyone else is and they don't want to look bad?

Click to shrink...

Japan's (and East Asia TBF) work culture in a nutshell.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

That sucks a bit..The fact they are so dedicated to what they are doing makes them so exploitable in the first place...

LOL! Sweet summer child.

Click to shrink...

He/she is right.
You poor responses so far aren't speaking for you either.

 

[Orb]

What? He said it himself, those developers that worked extra hours did that on their own, and nobody asked them to do it. Some even decided on their own that their work wasn't good enough and started from scratch.

Click to shrink...

You're not getting it. There are very few people in this industry who get to do things "on their own." There is always, ALWAYS an external motivator, from the bottom rung all the way up to the very top, and it's largely driven by profit above all else. Profit means getting things out the door and onto shelves early and often, at the expense of anything that stands in the way. It's why crunch happens. It's why burnout happens. It's why microtransactions and shitty business models happen. Even if the environment artist sitting in a cube at Santa Monica Studios thinks he's working 14-hours shifts for the love of the game, there's always something deeper there. Sometimes it's fear of losing a job, sometime's it's just the insane notion that you have to hustle that permeates all aspects of our society these days.

I'm not saying this all a gaming industry thing. It happens everywhere money is involved. We're all sitting on a knife edge here and few of us are truly free from the system that causes this kind of greed and corporate apology.

And I'm not saying any of this precludes someone from wanting to create something good and meaningful. But I think a fantastic society would see that process happen in a much different way than we do now.

 

[LGHT_TRSN]

In order to change the work culture, the release and hype culture need to be changed as well. Events like E3 and expectations like release dates only serve to fuel the crunch work culture that has developed due to these expectations. I love getting hyped about a gameplay demo at E3 along with a release date telling me when I can expect to play the game, but I also acknowledge that those expectations lead to crunch if/when those dates cannot be met on a regular work schedule.

 

[Animal Liberation Ⓥ]

OP doesn't get it.

I have an artist friend who sells his own paintings. He does whatever it takes from whatever inspirations he may have at whatever time of the day or night to do his thing. If you're making something you want people to like, you work your ass off, whether commisioned or to try and sell at a fair or show off at an art show. That's all Cory's saying. This isn't you or I eye going to work and trying to impress our bosses.

Click to shrink...

Completely this.

 

[LifeBrandRobot]

Sounds like Cory's only talking about his own team and not the video game industry at large. God of War has been patched almost every other day since it's come out last Friday. I don't think thats Sony or upper management forcing the devs to push out minor bug fixes and to increase the text size on an almost daily bases.

 

[Orb]

In order to change the work culture, the release and hype culture need to be changed as well. Events like E3 and expectations like release dates only serve to fuel the crunch work culture that has developed due to these expectations. I love getting hyped about a gameplay demo at E3 along with a release date telling me when I can expect to play the game, but I also acknowledge that those expectations lead to crunch if/when those dates cannot be met on a regular work schedule.

Click to shrink...

Bingo, it's such a fundamental issue to the consumer products industry that there's no way to solve it without a total sea change in how we consume the products and how they are marketed to us. Which won't happen as long as there is money to be made on getting people hyped and hawking pre-orders on games where we've only seen 45 seconds of non-gameplay CG footage.

 

[fuzzyset]

In order to change the work culture, the release and hype culture need to be changed as well. Events like E3 and expectations like release dates only serve to fuel the crunch work culture that has developed due to these expectations. I love getting hyped about a gameplay demo at E3 along with a release date telling me when I can expect to play the game, but I also acknowledge that those expectations lead to crunch if/when those dates cannot be met on a regular work schedule.

Click to shrink...

That's missing the larger contributor which is the publisher/powers-that-be wanting to release games in certain fiscal quarters to meet cost/revenue expectations. There's no indication that games that are delayed, but still good, aren't as hyped when finally released. Nintendo and Rockstar famously sticks to this and their games sell very well. The reason those deadlines 'need' to be met is usually because an accountant somewhere needs "+$100,000,000" on their spreadsheet.

 

[StephDiesel]

He sort of was dodging the question, but I think he would come off as an a$$ if he gave the response we all are thinking he would give...I'd expect him to say something like:

Most gamers don't understand/appreciate the amount of work (and the insane cost) that goes into modern AAA games. Right now, the market demands AAA games to have a massive open-world single player campaign, with deep progression systems, branching paths, and both co-op and competitive multiplayer. Gamers expect games to run with no bugs on day 1. On top of that, the market is so competitive that games are getting cheaper and cheaper (thanks to f2p and mobile games). Not to mention labor is getting more expensive (inflation, health insurance, etc). Obviously, there is a breaking point somewhere here, and as of right now, those breaking points are with Microtransactions/GAAS to help raise revenue, and outsourcing/unpaid overtime help reduce costs.

So he's right, making games right now depends on the passion of the creators. They all could make more money and work less if they worked in another field.

As someone who loves AAA single player games, I just hope that it remains a viable way to make money. I would be willing to pay more than 60$ for a game, but I realize that the market won't support that given the intense competition

 

[jacks81x]

Passion doesn't have to be measured by time spent in the office. I manage a dozen people at my company. They all basically work the same # of hours, but I can absolutely tell who's passionate about their work and who isn't. Not being passionate about your work also doesn't mean you suck at your job. For some people, work is like muscle memory to them. They're very good at it because they've been doing it for many years. They know exactly what they're doing and always get their work done well and on time, but they're not necessarily passionate about it.

 

[balohna]

I've worked in the industry nearly 10 years now. Primarily in AAA, with a short stint in mobile and currently (past 6 months) at one of the rare AA studios.

What he says is about passion and staying late is kind of true, but at the same time it reinforces the idea that being that passionate is good, and therefore people that don't stay late aren't passionate and aren't as valuable. On my most recent release, I managed to help ship an 85 rated AAA game as a level designer without doing more than 60 hours a week, many weeks more like 50 hours, and the vast majority of my OT only in the last 2 months of production. I very much have my producers and leads to thank for giving me a sane amount of work, and literally locking us out of submitting anything that wasn't an approved bug fix or critical change for the last month or so. A lot of my OT was sitting around waiting for bugs, fixing one or two at 8 PM, then going home. OT is tough to avoid in an industry like this, but managing it is possible and should be done. Maybe God of War could have been scoped down (I hear it runs a little long anyway), and the artists that put in extra hours could have had that time as part of their regular work week.

 

[okayfrog]

I feel like this thread is trying to make Cory a villain of some kind.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, which is weird seeing as how Cory isn't a producer or head of the studio. If people wanna go after anyone, they should be going after Shannon Studstill, the head of SIE Santa Monica.

 

[LGHT_TRSN]

That's missing the larger contributor which is the publisher/powers-that-be wanting to release games in certain fiscal quarters to meet cost/revenue expectations. There's no indication that games that are delayed, but still good, aren't as hyped when finally released. Nintendo and Rockstar famously sticks to this and their games sell very well. The reason those deadlines 'need' to be met is usually because an accountant somewhere needs "+$100,000,000" on their spreadsheet.

Click to shrink...

They go hand in hand. There's a reason publishers/powers-that-be want to release games in certain fiscal quarters to meet cost/revenue expectations. I would imagine it's because they have evidence games released in those windows sell more, and games with release dates can gather more pre-orders.

I agree that games can still be hyped if they are delayed, but I think there is a valid question whether a game which is delayed and pushed outside of a holiday release window will sell as much in January and Feb when consumer spending is down overall. I don't know what the work culture is like at R* or Nintendo, but I would argue to are an exception, not the standard. R* can sell more copies of their games than anyone else and Nintendo doesn't really compete against anyone but themselves from a software perspective.

 

[fuzzyset]

Yeah, which is weird seeing as how Cory isn't a producer or head of the studio. If people wanna go after anyone, they should be going after Shannon Studstill, the head of SIE Santa Monica.

Click to shrink...

I mean, he proudly discusses convincing various team leads that his scope and vision of the game (aka larger and bigger than previous GoW games) is doable. He either a) thinks they're under performing with regard what can be accomplished or b) doesn't care because he can get them to over produce what would normally be accomplished. Neither are great looks.

 

[jph139]

OP doesn't get it.

I have an artist friend who sells his own paintings. He does whatever it takes from whatever inspirations he may have at whatever time of the day or night to do his thing. If you're making something you want people to like, you work your ass off, whether commisioned or to try and sell at a fair or show off at an art show. That's all Cory's saying. This isn't you or I eye going to work and trying to impress our bosses.

Click to shrink...

There's a huge, huge gap between an individual overworking to produce his own product (which is probably unhealthy, but ultimately your own choice) and one member of one team working for a huge multinational corporation. When your actions are effecting people other than yourself, and when you're part of a system that has one group profiting from your work, the dynamic is completely different.

This is not Farmer Bob staying up late to make sure his cows all come home.

 

[okayfrog]

I mean, he proudly discusses convincing various team leads that his scope and vision of the game (aka larger and bigger than previous GoW games) is doable. He either a) thinks they're under performing with regard what can be accomplished or b) doesn't care because he can get them to over produce what would normally be accomplished. Neither are great looks.

Click to shrink...

Either way, it doesn't matter. He isn't the head of the studio; he isn't the money guy. He isn't the team's boss. I'm sure he worked just as much overtime as all of them.

Of course, I could be talking out my ass here.

 

[Expy]

You're not getting it. There are very few people in this industry who get to do things "on their own." There is always, ALWAYS an external motivator, from the bottom rung all the way up to the very top, and it's largely driven by profit above all else. Profit means getting things out the door and onto shelves early and often, at the expense of anything that stands in the way. It's why crunch happens. It's why burnout happens. It's why microtransactions and shitty business models happen. Even if the environment artist sitting in a cube at Santa Monica Studios thinks he's working 14-hours shifts for the love of the game, there's always something deeper there. Sometimes it's fear of losing a job, sometime's it's just the insane notion that you have to hustle that permeates all aspects of our society these days.

I'm not saying this all a gaming industry thing. It happens everywhere money is involved. We're all sitting on a knife edge here and few of us are truly free from the system that causes this kind of greed and corporate apology.

And I'm not saying any of this precludes someone from wanting to create something good and meaningful. But I think a fantastic society would see that process happen in a much different way than we do now.

Click to shrink...

This is a factor in almost any line of work. This is not what this topic is discussing, this topic is specifically for the video games industry. External factors always play a role in job security, that's a given.

 

[MetatronM]

And it's like... It is a weird thing, but it's pervasive throughout all entertainment. Like you look at guys in movies and it's the same thing. nobody wants to put out a bad movie. Everybody's working their butt off trying to do something great.

Click to shrink...

Sure, but...the "guys in movies" are also HEAVILY unionized...

 

[MasterOfPastures]

Cory sits at the top of the food chain. He probably gives no shits about the people under him, simply by the fact that he has witnessed more mass firings as a lead and manager than most. Otherwise, he would have had the decency to avert the actions of money men to fire (or only hire) short term contractors.
But, that is career suicide, and in america, you are YOUR JOB. He can talk about passion all he wants, but at the end of the day, if it comes down to his kids being destitute or some 20 yo intern passing out at his desk due to """"passion"""" for the project.... figure it out.
Don't trust your bosses.
Don't trust corporations.

 

[z1yin9c]

Cory sits at the top of the food chain. He probably gives no shits about the people under him, simply by the fact that he has witnessed more mass firings as a lead and manager than most. Otherwise, he would have had the decency to avert the actions of money men to fire (or only hire) short term contractors.
But, that is career suicide, and in america, you are YOUR JOB. He can talk about passion all he wants, but at the end of the day, if it comes down to his kids being destitute or some 20 yo intern passing out at his desk due to """"passion"""" for the project.... figure it out.
Don't trust your bosses.
Don't trust corporations.

Click to shrink...

Your mentality is what I think it is wrong with Cory. Put on other people's shoes. He is happy and motivated not meaning others are. I can't think he means for bad things.
My take away is about Brad from Giant Bomb. All those interviews, all about how great the game and the teams are, Brad's question is the only "uncomfortable" question he has got since the game released. And his response is kind of targeting people asking questions like "if everyone just gives bad games a break everything is fine". I can't think that is good message in any sense.

 

[Twig]

I've worked in the industry nearly 10 years now. Primarily in AAA, with a short stint in mobile and currently (past 6 months) at one of the rare AA studios.

What he says is about passion and staying late is kind of true, but at the same time it reinforces the idea that being that passionate is good, and therefore people that don't stay late aren't passionate and aren't as valuable. On my most recent release, I managed to help ship an 85 rated AAA game as a level designer without doing more than 60 hours a week, many weeks more like 50 hours, and the vast majority of my OT only in the last 2 months of production. I very much have my producers and leads to thank for giving me a sane amount of work, and literally locking us out of submitting anything that wasn't an approved bug fix or critical change for the last month or so. A lot of my OT was sitting around waiting for bugs, fixing one or two at 8 PM, then going home. OT is tough to avoid in an industry like this, but managing it is possible and should be done. Maybe God of War could have been scoped down (I hear it runs a little long anyway), and the artists that put in extra hours could have had that time as part of their regular work week.

Click to shrink...

Quoting because posts like this keep getting ignored. Needs more attention from those saying "it's not a problem!!"

This is reality, not a made up issue.

Get it into your heads.

 

[deepFlaw]

And yet, games are improving?

It will get fixed when it starts affecting the bottom line.

Click to shrink...

No, it'll get fixed when employees move to get it fixed, which is why there's a growing movement for unionization.

Companies will never improve unless they are forced to improve. And employees shouldn't have to suffer until that force is the companies making less money, because they can and will blame plenty of other things for that first, including the employees.

A lot of developers who are really passionate about their product will work longer hours and put much more work into the product than those who don't.

Yes, some studio's management staff will drive their workers to work overtime (although this is not really forced in my experience), but I don't think it's super widespread, it may be a case of very bad bigger companies making everyone else look bad (EA). Sometimes they will work harder because if the project fails, they'll be out of a job, there are so many factors that have to be taken into account.

Click to shrink...

It is definitely super widespread. Please read what devs have posted in this very thread.

Any time you hear about "crunch", it's what you're describing in the second paragraph. Working harder also does not have to mean longer hours, and if they're in a situation where they really need to work longer hours that's management's problem to fix and accommodate for, not the people they want to do that work.

OP doesn't get it.

I have an artist friend who sells his own paintings. He does whatever it takes from whatever inspirations he may have at whatever time of the day or night to do his thing. If you're making something you want people to like, you work your ass off, whether commisioned or to try and sell at a fair or show off at an art show. That's all Cory's saying. This isn't you or I going to work and trying to impress our bosses.

Click to shrink...

Nope. Your friend is free to do what he wants because he's self-employed and can set his own rules without it impacting anyone else. Meanwhile Cory's team is not some indie artist collective; they are a salaried employees working for a very big company, and their bosses are indeed watching how each individual employee behaves in compared to the others. Because games are art there is definitely a sense of wanting to make something you're proud of, sure, but that doesn't mean they're working purely in that context at all.

 

[z1yin9c]

I've worked in the industry nearly 10 years now. Primarily in AAA, with a short stint in mobile and currently (past 6 months) at one of the rare AA studios.

What he says is about passion and staying late is kind of true, but at the same time it reinforces the idea that being that passionate is good, and therefore people that don't stay late aren't passionate and aren't as valuable. On my most recent release, I managed to help ship an 85 rated AAA game as a level designer without doing more than 60 hours a week, many weeks more like 50 hours, and the vast majority of my OT only in the last 2 months of production. I very much have my producers and leads to thank for giving me a sane amount of work, and literally locking us out of submitting anything that wasn't an approved bug fix or critical change for the last month or so. A lot of my OT was sitting around waiting for bugs, fixing one or two at 8 PM, then going home. OT is tough to avoid in an industry like this, but managing it is possible and should be done. Maybe God of War could have been scoped down (I hear it runs a little long anyway), and the artists that put in extra hours could have had that time as part of their regular work week.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for your insight.
We, consumers, devs, employers, and reviewers and reporters, all kind of people, all need to listen to a little bit more. Every time people talk about their own experience, I appreciate. Every time people trying to represent a little more than people just work next to them, I have doubt. Every time people ask people for break on one thing because other things are good, I also can't agree.

Giving random assumptions about people you don't know personally is not a good thing at all, giving your own prospective is always good for all the people are interested in games.

 

[Raven117]

No, it'll get fixed when employees move to get it fixed, which is why there's a growing movement for unionization.

Companies will never improve unless they are forced to improve. And employees shouldn't have to suffer until that force is the companies making less money, because they can and will blame plenty of other things for that first, including the employees.

Click to shrink...

This would be absolutely atrocious for the gaming industry. It would absolutely devastate middle developers...big companies would move operations overseas and/or drastically raise prices. To want to unionize this type of work (which kind btw? programmers? artists? animators? anyone who works for games?), is foolish and shows an complete misunderstanding of economics, freedom of contract, and a whole host of other issues.

Moreover, these people aren't suffering. Long hours for 6 months? Working on weekends? OH NO!! We have a damn human rights violation going on.

Companies change when their bottom line is affected. Studios should be much better at managing their projects to not have this and have reasonable hours to allow folks to be more productive. Studios that do a better job, will get better talent and make better games.