k but like the Nicaraguans just wanted land reform
he authorized the slaughter of civilians to serve corporate interests, I agree that that's the foundation of American politics but I dont think it deserves moral equivocation.
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George H.W Bush has died at the age of 94
- Thread starter TerminusFox
- Start date
k but like the Nicaraguans just wanted land reform
he authorized the slaughter of civilians to serve corporate interests, I agree that that's the foundation of American politics but I dont think it deserves moral equivocation.
I was an early teen when he was President.
As a human being I don't think I have enough information to judge him. But as a President , my opinion is that he was just average. He wasn't terrible, but wasn't great either.
I do know he lost any shot at re-election with his, "read my lips, no new taxes" statement, and then turned around and had to raise taxes. He pretty much lost his party support on that one. His, "1000 points of light" speech also did him no favors. I guess it was supposed to put an end to homelessness. I guess he'll also be remembered for kicking the invading Iraqi Army out of Kuwait in what has to be some kind of record rout for the US military. Many at the time felt it was a mistake to not follow the Iraqis back into their country and remove Saddam Hussein. His judgement call to stop at the border instead of going in cost him a lot of political points with his party also. I do wonder though if it would have had any effect on world history had he removed Saddam then - before we saw the rise of Islamic extremism which began to really become a political player in that region in the period and right after he left office. Would it have hastened what exactly is going on now in destabilizing the region, or would it have been the right time to do it before extremism got such a strong foothold.
I guess in the end, he lived a long and seemingly good life so I hope he's now wherever his beliefs thought he should be. RIP.
As a human being I don't think I have enough information to judge him. But as a President , my opinion is that he was just average. He wasn't terrible, but wasn't great either.
I do know he lost any shot at re-election with his, "read my lips, no new taxes" statement, and then turned around and had to raise taxes. He pretty much lost his party support on that one. His, "1000 points of light" speech also did him no favors. I guess it was supposed to put an end to homelessness. I guess he'll also be remembered for kicking the invading Iraqi Army out of Kuwait in what has to be some kind of record rout for the US military. Many at the time felt it was a mistake to not follow the Iraqis back into their country and remove Saddam Hussein. His judgement call to stop at the border instead of going in cost him a lot of political points with his party also. I do wonder though if it would have had any effect on world history had he removed Saddam then - before we saw the rise of Islamic extremism which began to really become a political player in that region in the period and right after he left office. Would it have hastened what exactly is going on now in destabilizing the region, or would it have been the right time to do it before extremism got such a strong foothold.
I guess in the end, he lived a long and seemingly good life so I hope he's now wherever his beliefs thought he should be. RIP.
Domestically speaking, Trump is far worse with the tribalism, attack on media, advent of alt right groups, mistreating immigrants, slander of LGBTQ, etc.
The only good things about George HW Bush was that he raised taxes and earns the title of our most Gangsta president, if you respect that sort of thing. Dude was in the streets doing dirt, figuratively speaking.
If we're doing butterfly effects, shouldn't we be giving him credit for birthing the person who brought AIDS to heel across the African continent?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President's_Emergency_Plan_for_AIDS_Relief
If you're going to present argument like this, I guess we can be done.
Even his son is already starting to be seen as your friendly neighborhood Republican less than 15 years after getting out of office.
Would you have said RIP if David Duke died? If you say no then it's clearly a privilege, which I don't think he deserves
I'm being a little pedantic I acknowledge
I never really looked into why Bush lost his re-election but based on the life recaps they are showing on the news right now apparently it came down to him promising no new taxes and....he added new taxes
RIP, HW.
Wouldn't be Era without people shitting on a President who made many mistakes and championed policy that I'm vehemently opposed to, but he's hardly the demonic monster some in this thread are making him out to be.
Wouldn't be Era without people shitting on a President who made many mistakes and championed policy that I'm vehemently opposed to, but he's hardly the demonic monster some in this thread are making him out to be.
David Duke is the head of a hate group, while Bush was a President of the United States.
There's quite a difference. I'm just showing the barest amount of respect to the office by saying Rest In Peace.
What's your response to his argument though? If he phrased it correctly.
People go out of their way to mythologize these people. It's disgusting, but I didn't want to be the first one who came in here that said it.
In the interest of making sure respectability era doesn't have hurt feelies, I won't repeat the conversation I just had on the phone here, but I'm not surprised. Same shit that happened when McCain died.
That was the big thing. He ran on the promise "Read my lips. No New Taxes." When the Reagan economy performed how everyone knew it would and taxes needed to be raised Bush did what had to be done and pissed off lots of Anti-Tax republicans
Last WWII Vet to serve as President as well.
The WWII Vet Generation is almost gone, thats a real stinger.
I wonder how ERA will react to this.
The WWII Vet Generation is almost gone, thats a real stinger.
I wonder how ERA will react to this.
Actually, that's probably pretty accurate. That and his watch gaffe at a debate. We are very visual beings.
Was supporting torture regimes and paramilitary groups to serve corporate interests a mistake or a policy you are vehemently opposed to?
Crazy isn't it? How many weird things destroyed politicians in the past and Trump can get away with a debate where at the end he's red, panting heavily, and ripping his debate notes in anger.
Bush Sr. still did a lot of bad things that people need to remember. I said previously that he was decent and beholden to the GOP, but he agreed with the GOP and what they did. People should not forget that.
Restate it for me and I'll be happy to engage if you're curious.
Spot on. It's part of the reason why I have legit anxiety thinking about what is happening right now. What IS going on right now.
His political positions aside, it was remarkable how much he accomplished in his life. At the risk of steering into "greatest generation" cliches I really doubt we're going to see anyone in our time do so much.
- WWII Vet, shot down over Pacific, rescued by submarine
- UN Ambassador
- CIA Director
- Congressman
- Liason to China that opened the country up
- Political party chairman
- Vice President
- President
For the record I think Obama is pretty shady too, what with ordering coups into democratically elected governments like Honduras' that then end up causing a massive refugee crisis in Central America that have repercussions up to this day with migrant caravans asking for asylum at the border.
I'm morbidly curious to find out what his statement will say when Trump dies.
I find that explanation to leaving a lot of the responsibility off the hands of Bush. We are in agreement that Clinton allowing the elimination of the Glass-Steagall Act was a terrible decision, but the expansion of the shadow banking system, maintaining Alan Greenspan in the Federal Reserve, poor regulation that worsened in the 2000s, and our nation's fixation with housing all happened under Bush. Some of it began under Clinton, but much of the damage was under Bush. Along with a middling economy and an exploding deficit that certainly didn't help the economy.
Bush didn't irreparably harm the Office of the President or our standing in the world? Did we both live in the same decade? Did we forget Bush pushing and going gunho with the USA PATRIOT ACT, beginning the eviscerating of what little privacy rights exist in the country? Or starting two horrifically managed wars in the Middle East, of which we are still suffering the consequences and likely will still suffer for decades to come? Or the War in Iraq, which Bush and his entire cabinet had lied from Bush downward to justify overthrowing Saddam? What about the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq, the destabilization of the country, the emboldened nature of Iran as a result of Iraq, the rise and Al-Qaeda in Iraq and ISIS, etc? Bush has been far worst in the long-term consequences, and I think people are starting to forget how much Bush created the debacles in the world we are still cleaning up.
The economy was going to crash anyway? Not sure I agree with that. A recession was certainly inevitable, and did happen with the Dot Com bubble bursting. A president leaving an economic mess for his successor, just like Bush did with Obama. I would argue that the Bush administration ignored all warning signs of a rising bubble in the housing market and did next to nothing until the end, which I can't be sure Clinton would have just allowed.
Cheney's role should certainly not be understated, but Bush is ultimately the man who calls the shots and given the final say. Regardless of whether he was involved in the planning, he is the POTUS. The responsibility falls equally on his shoulder as Cheney. He doesn't get a pass or justification from me because of that.
Truth going out the window? Along with my previous responses, I am really beginning to wonder whether we have a rose-colored viewpoint of the 2000s. There is a reason why it was called "the decade from hell." Bush pulled a gargantuan lie to invade a country that is still leaving the Middle East reeling, likely contributing to the rise of terrorism that is haunting the region, U.S. and Europe of this day. On top of his continuation of the expansion of Executive authority which Obama and Trump only continued, not nurtured and expanded on steroids like Bush did. What little civil liberty protections were obliterated during the Bush years. People tend to forget that some of the worst habits of the Presidency involving truth and decency were long destroyed before Trump, and could arguable be far more detrimental under Bush. Remember when he accused Democrats of either being on Team America or "supporting the enemy?" I would argue the polarization that had infected the country began under Bush, worsened considerable under Obama, and entered terminal stage with Trump.
George Walker Bush is by far the worst President in modern American history, with Trump being an immediate second choice. He permanently damaged U.S. foreign policy, cratered the economy that expanded income equality and the flux we have in the job market, repeatedly lied before the international community about his record and objectives in domestic and foreign affairs, could barely enunciate sentences at times (which I remember my foreign relatives mocking America continually), expanded the modern police state we are seeing with local and federal law enforcement, and planted the seeds of the terrible polarization we are seeing in our nation. Don't even get me started on his tax cuts. The man's record was plain bad all around. His body count alone should make him worse than Trump without question. Any issue regarding the reputation of the Office of the President of the United States is a joke, since presidents from FDR onward had repeatedly flouted and pushed constitutional boundaries long before Trump and Bush. Trump only revealed how fragile and pathetic constitutional restrictions are, while other presidents at least paid "lip service" to constitutional norms while the international community followed along since it maintained the status quo. The Executive Branch isn't called the Imperial Presidency for no reason.
Yep. This is true. But Americas size and power certainly exacerbate it.
If you have a point to make, make it. Your smarmyness isn't cute.
I ain't defending the actions. But I think it's entirely possible to critisize a leaders culpability in death worldwide without telling them to rot in hell the day they die*. Especially when those actions likely would've happened regardless of who was in office.
Like, now would be a great time to reflect on both what he did right and what he did that was inexcusable, and everything in between. And how America frequently screws over other countries. But I mean fuck, dudes corpse ain't even cold yet and y'all telling him to eat shit.
*Exemptions to this rule exist, to be sure. But there's a difference between making hard decisions as a leader of a country and being an entirely selfish dickhole or monster like some examples I can think of. I feel Sr. falls squarely in the former category.
Chomsky is a hack, and comparing the US to Nazi's does neither credit for their actions.
He's an ex politician responding like a politician.
I can hold Obama in high regard even if he's singing Bush's praises well simultaneously disagreeing with what Bush has done in his term as president.
Its part of the reason I don't like seeing hatred over someone when they just died. Tribalism is a two-way street and I hate seeing tribalism on my own side just as much as the other side. Imagine seeing a thread of similar platitudes somewhere else when Jimmy Carter passes, or if something were to happen to Obama.
But granted it seems some people here just hate US Presidents in General so I can't really say anything to that.
That said, I am very aware I will be hypocritical when Trump dies. He's a vile vile human.
Well, to be fair, head of the republican party and head of a hate group are fairly synonymous
Who is this Era person? You should ask them. You don't think everyone here has the same opinion on everything, right?
As far as HW, I hope of there is a heaven he is able to be reunited with his wife. As an older individual they were just kind of always around as a unit, they obviously loved each other very much and had something special.
It's easy to take this position of "he made harsh choices because he was the leader of a country" when you are nowhere near close to the action and have no relatives in the affected countries. I lost an uncle (admittedly I wasn't born yet) to the invasion so, pardon my language, but I hope he rots in hell.
It's a question of having basic human empathy.
If only people had the third of the class he has.
Plus it will make Trump mad.
- Fucked Panama up, taking down former pal Noriega
- Racist Willie Horton ad
- Worked for the CIA, eventually becoming its Director.
- Vetoed 1990 Civil Rights Act
- Cynically replaces a legend like Thurgood Marshall with an unrepentant coon lapdog in Clarence Thomas
The most morally reprehensible shit I know of is his CIA work. The organization is collectively Satan.
Chomsky a hack? lol! I am not surprised. This is resetera after all where someone like Hilary is well liked and supported.
Why don't you read the article I linked to where Chomsky explains that sentence instead of throwing out nonsensical statements like you did. your response is basically - I can't rebut what he said, so I will just call him a hack and be done with it.
Like I've said when Mc Cain died you don't have to go out of your way to eulogize the man but goddamn do some people really go out of their way to just be absolute dicks. You don't have to comment on every news story that breaks.
US Citizens kind of live in a bubble where they forget that their leader's foreign policy decisions actually affect real living people. It's why they're often surprised when people don't venerate their leaders or "respect the office" as much as they do.
