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Genshin Impact |OT5| Land of the Resin Sun (game version 2.0, Inazuma region added)

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MoonlitBow

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Oct 25, 2017
4,881
esserius said:
Venti is not as strong as Kazuha in a lot of comps now, BUT Venti defined the meta for what a good CC unit should be / do and he still embodies that even now. There are better Energy Battery options in most elements other than Electro - Raiden should define the energy battery. She doesn't fulfill that role, despite the promotion of her as such.
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Venti was clearly a mistake and his design screams just them making him better than the existing Anemo characters and not thinking about how he would be template for how every other archon would be going forward. I also don't see how Raiden doesn't represent energy gain, she has mechanics based on it and she does it well enough for what she is supposed to do. Also, I want to reiterate that there is too much of a focus on perceiving her as an energy battery because she is about burst rotation in general and her energy gain is meant to facilitate that, not be a band aid alone.
 
esserius

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,306
MoonlitBow said:
Venti was clearly a mistake and his design screams just them making him better than the existing Anemo characters and not thinking about how he would be template for how every other archon would be going forward. I also don't see how Raiden doesn't represent energy gain, she has mechanics based on it and she does it well enough for what she is supposed to do. Also, I want to reiterate that there is too much of a focus on perceiving her as an energy battery because she is about burst rotation in general and her energy gain is meant to facilitate that, not be a band aid alone.
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Saying "well it was a mistake" (which Mihoyo has never said) isn't an excuse. It's clear they can and will change a character if they're not satisfactory (see Zhongli). It's also clear that they don't seem to mind nerfing characters but they rarely buff characters despite many desperately needing them (Yoimiya in particular, Raiden secondarily). Zhongli and Venti define their metas. Raiden should too.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
esserius said:
Saying "well it was a mistake" (which Mihoyo has never said) isn't an excuse. It's clear they can and will change a character if they're not satisfactory (see Zhongli). It's also clear that they don't seem to mind nerfing characters but they rarely buff characters despite many desperately needing them (Yoimiya in particular, Raiden secondarily). Zhongli and Venti define their metas. Raiden should too.
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Which characters got nerfed? I only recall people crying out that about that Fichl thing. Her generating too many energy particles or something.
 
esserius

esserius

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Oct 26, 2017
7,306
brokeastronaut said:
Which characters got nerfed? I only recall people crying out that about that Fichl thing. Her generating too many energy particles or something.
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They call them bugfixes and that they're correcting the functionality of them, but indirectly they always end up weakening the characters. And in particular, weakening characters that typically weren't super strong to begin with (Lisa, Fischl, Beidou, etc.)
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
which Mihoyo has never said)
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*looks at Geovishaps and pre-nerf Inazuma enemies*

Zhongli and Venti define their metas. Raiden should too.
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Venti was the meta because there weren't enough heavy things in the game and Zhongli was meta because his shield was too powerful in addition to them putting enemies in the game that specifically interact with shields to counter them. Raiden's meta is using high cost characters which happen to be many of the Inazuma characters that have been coming out. It might not be THE meta, but that's largely because Raiden is more about building specific teams than countering enemies this time around.
 
Liv

Liv

Teyvat Traveler
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Aug 20, 2019
1,452
esserius said:
Unless you can reliably permafreeze, Black Sword isn't as bad as most people think.
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I still think it's highly dependant on your artifacts rolls. Even in the KQM weapon ranking they say Blacksword with 3 CR rolls > Blacksword with 0 CR rolls > Blacksword with 5 CR rolls. And if you have really shitty ER substats Amenoma really helps get her Ult up (at R3 i think it starts making a noticeable difference, mine is R5 and it is great for charging her up). I think both Blackcliff and Blacksword can have a higher ceiling depending on your substat rolls but Amenoma is an overall solid performance regardless.

As for reliably permafreezing I have the benefit of a R5 sac sword XQ so whatever I'm hitting is indeed always frozen. But each player has their resources to consider.
 
Kewlmyc

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,757
It's always weird how it's Electro units getting these "corrections". I'm legit not sure what they want from the Electro element at this point.
 
esserius

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,306
Liv said:
I still think it's highly dependant on your artifacts rolls. Even in the KQM weapon ranking they say Blacksword with 3 CR rolls > Blacksword with 0 CR rolls > Blacksword with 5 CR rolls. And if you have really shitty ER substats Amenoma really helps get her Ult up (at R3 i think it starts making a noticeable difference, mine is R5 and it is great for charging her up). I think both Blackcliff and Blacksword can have a higher ceiling depending on your substat rolls but Amenoma is an overall solid performance regardless.

As for reliably permafreezing I have the benefit of a R5 sac sword XQ so whatever I'm hitting is indeed always frozen. But each player has their resources to consider.
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Not disagreeing, just that I often play Ayaka with Zhongli or in teams that can't permafreeze (solo Ayaka), so Black Sword works better for me. In general usage, I've found that the extremely high crit rates require pretty specific teams to work. Ayaka, due to her high base stats, can be a straight up monster on her own though, with a CR Helm and/or weapon.

MoonlitBow said:
Venti was the meta because there weren't enough heavy things in the game and Zhongli was meta because his shield was too powerful in addition to them putting enemies in the game that specifically interact with shields to counter them. Raiden's meta is using high cost characters which happen to be many of the Inazuma characters that have been coming out. It might not be THE meta, but that's largely because Raiden is more about building specific teams than countering enemies this time around.
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I mean, I don't think there's any convincing either of us. I find her weaker than she should be (because she's an archon, she should be powerful), you think she's fine. Agree to disagree.
Kewlmyc said:
It's always weird how it's Electro units getting these "corrections". I'm legit not sure what they want from the Electro element at this point.
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Yeah, I definitely don't understand what they're thinking with regards to Electro characters. It seems like they're designing Electro characters to be awkward solo characters, near as I can tell.
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
Kewlmyc said:
It's always weird how it's Electro units getting these "corrections". I'm legit not sure what they want from the Electro element at this point.
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I think they're committed at this point to just having it remain a weak element but the characters themselves are strong, and they've been pushing an ER focus as its core identity lately (I think it was always part of the resonance and the artifact set but now it's a wider theme for the weapons, artifacts, Lumine, and Raiden.)
esserius said:
I mean, I don't think there's any convincing either of us. I find her weaker than she should be (because she's an archon, she should be powerful), you think she's fine. Agree to disagree.
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It is one thing to think she is weak, but I disagree with the "especially at C0" assessment (since unless I am reading it wrong the constellations don't actually affect energy gain, so it should be the same at C0 as C6) and also because she is an archon which to me is a VERY arbitrary condition which to me really has no meaning or ground in how powerful a character will be. It just comes off as wishful thinking more than anything.
 
Aexact

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,283
Antonymous said:
Has anyone gotten any of the rarer 3* weapons from Inazuma chests? Was hoping to R5 some of them.
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I've opened a ton of chests in Inazuma and gotten none. Was hoping to R5 the remaining ones I accidentally fused away before finding out they were chest exclusive. Alas, these sour grapes. The Halberd isn't that good anyway!
 
esserius

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,306
MoonlitBow said:
It is one thing to think she is weak, but I disagree with the "especially at C0" assessment (since unless I am reading it wrong the constellations don't actually affect energy gain, so it should be the same at C0 as C6) and also because she is an archon which to me is a VERY arbitrary condition which to me really has no meaning or ground in how powerful a character will be. It just comes off as wishful thinking more than anything.
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Archons are mythologized as the most powerful beings in the game. It makes perfect sense that they, as playable characters, would also be powerful. It's not arbitrary, the game establishes them as demigods. Their power should reflect that in-game, not just in cutscenes. I say especially at C0 because at C0 she's nowhere near as strong as she otherwise would be. It feels like they took something out (her elemental battery role) and put something else in (sub-DPS). Much like Zhongli v1, the design seems to lack a critical focus on the character's role and how they meet that role.
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
esserius said:
Archons are mythologized as the most powerful beings in the game. It makes perfect sense that they, as playable characters, would also be powerful. It's not arbitrary, the game establishes them as demigods. Their power should reflect that in-game, not just in cutscenes. I say especially at C0 because at C0 she's nowhere near as strong as she otherwise would be. It feels like they took something out (her elemental battery role) and put something else in (sub-DPS). Much like Zhongli v1, the design seems to lack a critical focus on the character's role and how they meet that role.
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Archons actually reflecting their power in the story would be silly because then there would be no reason to pull for other characters. There is also precedent for characters not being the same in power as they are portrayed in story as Traveler is absurdly powerful in cutscenes but is considered one of the weakest characters in the game.

I also disagree with your saying she has no focused role and how that role is met. Look at resolve stacks. That is the character. That is how you build the character, that is how her team is built. Her battery capabilities are a part of the overall package because it's supposed to keep the resolve loop going. She has the most focused and cohesive gameplay designs of all of the archons so far.
 
esserius

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,306
MoonlitBow said:
Archons actually reflecting their power in the story would be silly because then there would be no reason to pull for other characters. There is also precedent for characters not being the same in power as they are portrayed in story as Traveler is absurdly powerful in cutscenes but is considered one of the weakest characters in the game.

I also disagree with your saying she has no focused role and how that role is met. Look at resolve stacks. That is the character. That is how you build the character, that is how her team is built. Her battery capabilities are a part of the overall package because it's supposed to keep the resolve loop going. She has the most focused and cohesive gameplay designs of all of the archons so far.
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I suppose it would sound unfair to believe the Traveler could also be considerably better. They're a 5* and yet they're weaker than most 4* characters. I think that archons should be strong and should stand head and shoulders above other characters in some regard. Raiden does that at C2/3, but not in the role advertised.

As for resolve stacks, I don't think that building around a character counts as cohesion. Characters should feel complete on their own, even if they are stronger with units supporting them (which they should be regardless). Until I got her at C2, she very much did not feel like a complete character, and even that is mostly just me saying that she didn't feel like she had a distinct strength I couldn't get from another character (until C2, my Zhongli's burst was doing roughly the same damage on the initial hit as Raiden, and he's built as a Physical DPS).
 
lemonade

lemonade

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May 8, 2018
3,044
MoonlitBow said:
Archons actually reflecting their power in the story would be silly because then there would be no reason to pull for other characters. There is also precedent for characters not being the same in power as they are portrayed in story as Traveler is absurdly powerful in cutscenes but is considered one of the weakest characters in the game.

I also disagree with your saying she has no focused role and how that role is met. Look at resolve stacks. That is the character. That is how you build the character, that is how her team is built. Her battery capabilities are a part of the overall package because it's supposed to keep the resolve loop going. She has the most focused and cohesive gameplay designs of all of the archons so far.
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Well said.
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
esserius said:
As for resolve stacks, I don't think that building around a character counts as cohesion. Characters should feel complete on their own, even if they are stronger with units supporting them (which they should be regardless). Until I got her at C2, she very much did not feel like a complete character, and even that is mostly just me saying that she didn't feel like she had a distinct strength I couldn't get from another character (until C2, my Zhongli's burst was doing roughly the same damage on the initial hit as Raiden, and he's built as a Physical DPS).
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Venti feels incomplete if I'm not influsing his burst with an element that another character is doing and hitting enemies in the vortex with damage sources better than his auto attack. I don't see what is wrong with a character designed with team compositions in mind, and I don't know why it is so alarming that the different archons have very different approaches to how they are designed.
 
Shryke

Shryke

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,545
Finally got Raiden! So from this banner got Sara to C3, Xiangling to C3, and Sucrose to C6. Now I can rest.... on the primos.
 
shadow2810

shadow2810

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,250
I think I'm done farming artifacts for Raiden

KDxDR6R.png
 
esserius

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,306
MoonlitBow said:
Venti feels incomplete if I'm not influsing his burst with an element that another character is doing and hitting enemies in the vortex with damage sources better than his auto attack. I don't see what is wrong with a character designed with team compositions in mind, and I don't know why it is so alarming that the different archons have very different approaches to how they are designed.
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I sincerely hope you're joking about this comment on Venti. He might feel different if he's not infusing, but incomplete? Nah.
 
lemonade

lemonade

Member
May 8, 2018
3,044
esserius said:
Characters should feel complete on their own, even if they are stronger with units supporting them (which they should be regardless). Until I got her at C2, she very much did not feel like a complete character, and even that is mostly just me saying that she didn't feel like she had a distinct strength I couldn't get from another character (until C2, my Zhongli's burst was doing roughly the same damage on the initial hit as Raiden, and he's built as a Physical DPS).
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If you dismiss the party-wide energy generation and subsequent dmg after the initial slash, of course she feels "incomplete".

Others have pointed this out to you numerous times already in this thread, but you can't help yourself to keep posting the same disingenuous arguments.
 
Retromess

Retromess

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Nov 9, 2017
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Don't new OTs typically happen around 400 pages?

if so, do we have any contenders for the next OT title?
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
Also the way Raiden is played before you get C2:
- Activate her skill
- Your party uses their bursts
- She uses her burst (reactivate skill first if needed)
- Repeat

The way she plays after you get C2:
- Activate her skill
- Your party uses their bursts
- She uses her burst (reactivate skill first if needed)
- Repeat

C2 is literally just more damage and only for Raiden herself, it doesn't actually change how the character plays so the fact that she is somehow incomplete without it is an odd sentiment especially when the main complaint seems to be about being a battery which C2 doesn't affect.
 
Chrono

Chrono

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Oct 25, 2017
21,194
Retromess said:
Don't new OTs typically happen around 400 pages?

if so, do we have any contenders for the next OT title?
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If we're looking for titles, I'm going to go recommend my:

Genshin Impact IOT6I Sorry Indiana Jones, but this Artifact does not belong in a Museum! It belongs in the trash.

for all of us suffering in Artifact Hell.
 
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xendless

xendless

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Jan 23, 2019
10,739
Fuu said:
Lisa recently got nerfed too.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
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Yep
It is so incredibly obvious they don't want a good electro pair with Raiden that isn't Sara (and eventually 5 star Yae)
Lisa has been like that since the beginning of the game
Messing with Fischl patches ago was foreshadowing
If MHY found an excuse they would "fix" Xingqiu and Bennett in a heartbeat
I can see it now "fixed an unintended bug that means Xingqiu can trigger the sacrificial sword. you see only characters with both feet on the ground can do that. Whereas Xingqiu is in the middle of a backflip"
 
SixtyFourBlades

SixtyFourBlades

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,864
xendless said:
Yep
It is so incredibly obvious they don't want a good electro pair with Raiden that isn't Sara (and eventually 5 star Yae)
Lisa has been like that since the beginning of the game
Messing with Fischl patches ago was foreshadowing
If MHY found an excuse they would "fix" Xingqiu and Bennett in a heartbeat
I can see it now "fixed an unintended bug that means Xingqiu can trigger the sacrificial sword. you see only characters with both feet on the ground can do that. Whereas Xingqiu is in the middle of a backflip"
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I would riot if they ever do something like that to my Xingqui 😒

I bet Tyaren completely forgot about the new OT lol. This thread moving fast.
 

MoonlitBow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,881
PlanetSmasher said:
Been out of town and haven't been logging into GI for a couple of days. What did I miss?
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Not much, fish for refining Catch ascension materials finally in fishing event if you need those (only of one color I think though) but they are very rare, and the fishing event part before that strangely had no fishing and was actually progressing the plot of a larger story instead.
 
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