Gavin Moore (Demon's Souls Remake Creative Director): "There are no difficulty options in Demon's Souls, and there shouldn't be."

[Yautja_Warrior]

I'm all for adding easy modes to most games but being hard is the core of the Soul's games, take that away and it kinda loses it's identity.

It's not like the game is impossible or unfair and being more challenging is part of the appeal, the game wouldn't be as good without the challenge.

 

[spootime]

From personal experiencing modding my save to make it easier, this was not my takeaway. The game remained engaging and even challenging, just more manageable for my available time and skill level.


No, but people continue to equate "easier" with "no challenge". That's not the case. Imagine, instead of dying to Ornestein and Smough THIRTY times like I did, I was able to do so in 5-6 times at a reduced level?

People still fondly talk about the challenge of Alma in Ninja Gaiden Black, but even THAT game has difficulty modes.


I'm legitimately curious if more people would be into Demon's Souls amazing story and lore if they weren't so focused on the challenge. Again, altering my save to allow me to take it in really made me appreciate how deep the narrative goes. I like it as much as anything in TLOU2.


Which works... for a certain sect of gamers. For myself, I played it legitimately and didn't enjoy it as much as others did. I remedied that with mods and found a balance that allowed me to appreciate the games as masterpieces of design and vision... at a rebalanced scale that better fit my playstyle.

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I really don't think dying to a boss 30 times is out of the ordinary. Or maybe we're equally bad at these games and you're less masochistic and/or busier than I am :).

Now that the franchise is established I personally wouldn't be as bothered if they were to add menu options for difficulty. I already artificially modify the difficulty by refusing to look up anything about bosses or where to go. There's already abstracted "difficulty options" like abusing cheap builds or summoning people. I'd probably prefer they add more abstracted sliders like summoning or purposely OP builds rather than just chucking a UI element in there and calling it a day to preserve the "reputation" of the series, but it's not going to bother me too much either way.

Also, I'm not going to argue that you missed out any experiences or that you're not a "true dark souls" gamer or something because you modded the game. I'm happy you found enjoyment by doing it. But I think the games would not have the reputation they do if they had difficulty options from day 1, and part of the reputation of this series will always be wrapped up in the fact that there's no outward difficulty options.

That implies that unless you do some self nerfing difficulty challenge that the games aren't engaging on repeat runs where you're much more likely to steamroll everything. Let alone starting a new character.

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Yes, that's correct. I don't find them nearly as engaging on repeat runs and I do have to do some sort of self nerfing difficulty challenge. That's why people do things like level one playthroughs or use weird, inefficient builds. It's quite common.

 

[wastingmyyouth]

Everyone being on the same playing field was kinda fun though

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Fun for who exactly? The patient and dexterous? What about the anxious and invalid?

Equality of opportunity is not equality of outcome. People need to stop dictating how others should consume and enjoy forms of entertainment.

 

[Death Penalty]

If an artist makes something that can't be experienced by someone for one reason or another I don't believe they owe anything to anyone to change it. It's their work, they choose what's in it or not. We can fence about this all day but that's ultimately what I come down to. If they include accessibility options, great. If they don't then that's their choice.

I'm not here to argue about feelings or whatever. Peoples' over-assocations and emotions over consumer media are usually excessive and unnecessary anyway.

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Honestly it's just a pretty callous move on the part of the devs to take a hard stance against an easy mode like that, which is where the criticism is coming from. They may not be obligated, but that doesn't mean they aren't making a choice that kinda sucks. At the end of the day though this boils down to a discussion of empathy so if you're not here to argue about feelings I guess we can just leave it there.

 

[Guru Meditation]

I can respect them not wanting to compromise their artistic vision if the intended experience is supposed to be brutally hard. Not everything has to be for everybody.

 

[Ovvv]

I think people are moreso taking issue with the superfans way more than they are the overall decision itself because the superfans are stating shit like "I'm against accessibility options because creative vision"

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You're doing a great disservice to that quote when it clearly means that they're against accessibility issues so long as that is what the artist wants with their vision, which is considerably different. Miyazaki has spoken out about WHY there aren't difficulty options and it's OK to support that.

 

[Blindy]

Agreed, especially if PvP is being incorporated but I do think accessibility options are always appreciated for those who like it.

 

[Kinggroin]

I totally get not putting an option in. There's more work involved, and they don't want to bother putting resources into something that ultimately veers away from the intended experience.

But IF it was there. If they did it; I can't say that I'd give two shits honestly. I just won't use it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

How exactly do you suggest it works during invasion/coop? Because then the game world is not affected by you but other players and their actions as well.

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It kicks you out of it.

With the exception of Demon's Souls, each successive game has more posters considering it the 'hardest' game. Obviously the doesn't account for variations in rankings which is more challenging to compile, but it's a pretty strong indicator that the perception of difficulty is contrary to your claim as each game has gotten increasingly popular and the series has seen increasing levels of success.

I don't think there actually is a probably with the series becoming niche or being niche (which is certainly where it started), but the bolded claim seems to fly in the face of what we're actually seeing with the series.

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That list literally shows almost half the amount of votes of DS3 as Bloodborne. Bloodborne's perception of difficulty stemmed form the fact that it broke the comfort zone of Soul's players. Where aggression was prioritized over defensiveness and countering. Dark Souls 3 was just a slightly faster version of the Souls status quo. Nioh isn't even a souls game, but is hands down the hardest of the bunch. Sekiro again, shook up the status quo. Demon's Souls will be perceived as more easy than people remember if only because they're so used to the souls formula at this point. And that's in spite of them nerfing health items and bringing back the half health upon death mechanic.

 

[Deleted member 46804]

I don't think this analogy is particularly good to begin with, but if this is the line that's being explored Souls games absolutely do let people 'in the door' in that anybody can get through the tutorial, can play various levels.

Yes, you might not be able to complete them and progress through the entire content of the game (if we're keeping with this flawed restaurant analogy; the same way I can get into a fish restaurant but may be excluded from eating anything if I've a seafood allergy and they refuse to alter the menu to exclude seafood items), but it's disingenuous to say it's equivalent to being refused entry. You are absolutely 'playing the game/gaining entry' by playing levels (even if dying/not making progress).

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You aren't allowed to access everything if your skill level isn't high enough. Sure gates like that exist in real life but they don't have to exist here

You can summon two people. One of them is the ramp, the other is pushing you up the ramp.

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Which means you can't get to where you need to go by yourself which is totally the opposite of the point. People with disabilities want to be self reliant. The ramp isn't there so someone can push them up it. It is there to give them access.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes, that's correct. I don't find them nearly as engaging on repeat runs and I do have to do some sort of self nerfing difficulty challenge. That's why people do things like level one playthroughs or use weird, inefficient builds. It's quite common.

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I think Souls fans need to come to terms with the fact that they aren't representative of the average player who plays a souls game.

 

[Garlador]

I can respect them not wanting to compromise their artistic vision if the intended experience is supposed to be brutally hard. Not everything has to be for everybody.

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This continues to be the question I ask people who say this...

What if the game was STILL hard... but just more manageable and accessible with an option that lessened the struggle so someone with less ability can get an equivalent experience to your own?

 

[rickyson33]

not wanting to add something like that into a game is one thing but being snobby about it is such a toxic attitude

 

[Leo-Tyrant]

It's okay for some games to be hard. Not all games need to be all things. Demon's Souls is fondly remembered for how punishing it was at the time, and that it why it was brought back.

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"Its okay for this Japanese game with a great story and dialogues to not have subtitles. You could have learned Japanese since you were a child. People who know Japanese will have fond memories of it."

 

[oofouchugh]

It's okay for some games to be hard. Not all games need to be all things. Demon's Souls is fondly remembered for how punishing it was at the time, and that it why it was brought back.

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Why it was brought back, why there have been 6 games made by FROM based on this formula, why Dark Souls 1 was remastered, why Dark Souls 3 sold 10 million units, and why there are numerous games inspired by the Souls series like NiOh, Code Vein, Ashen, The Surge, Sinner, Lords of the Fallen, etc, etc.

 

[Deleted member 46804]

I totally get not putting an option in. There's more work involved, and they don't want to bother putting resources into something that ultimately veers away from the intended experience.

But IF it was there. If they did it; I can't say that I'd give two shits honestly. I just won't use it.

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What is the intended experience though? The main issue I have with that line is the intended experience changes based on your skill level. You might die 5 times against a boss because you are skilled while I might die 100 times against the boss because I'm not skilled while someone else may never defeat the boss. Who had the intended experience?

 

[Thorrgal]

I mean From is doubling down with their vision, with Sekiro being the hardest of them all, and I think Sekiro was the one with the most sales....I don't think they're in danger of becoming niche.

Let's see how Elden Ring turns out, personally I hope is not harder than Sekiro, and more on par with their previous games.

I also don't think Bluepoint had to add an easy mode for a re-make. Let From do it on Elden Ring if they choose to

 

[dom]

The funny thing is I bet some of the loudest people championing no easy mode are some of the first that complained about invaders and resulted in constant nerfing of them.

 

[Thorrgal]

"Its okay for this Japanese game with a great story and dialogues to not have subtitles. You could have learned Japanese since you were a child. People who know Japanese will have fond memories of it."

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Yes, it's totally the same thing...

 

[Phantom_Snake]

The game looks fun to people that cant play them for various reasons and are then told to find something else to play. That's extremely disrespectful, especially to those with disabilities.

 

[MOTHGOD]

What in the world would kill anybody to have options in a game? And for those saying artistic choice, what harm would it do if the developers made an extra easier difficulty mode and then a normal mode saying in a description, "a difficulty intended to be played by the developers for their artistic vision"? Alien: Isolation has it why couldn't Demon's Souls?

 

[NotVeryFriendly]

You aren't allowed to access everything if your skill level isn't high enough. Sure gates like that exist in real life but they don't have to exist here

Which means you can't get to where you need to go by yourself which is totally the opposite of the point. People with disabilities want to be self reliant. The ramp isn't there so someone can push them up it. It is there to give them access.

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Every player being able to access all content in the game seems like a very different ask than asking that every player being able to access the game as your ramp and 'entrance' analogy implies.

That list literally shows almost half the amount of votes of DS3 as Bloodborne. Bloodborne's perception of difficulty stemmed form the fact that it broke the comfort zone of Soul's players. Where aggression was prioritized over defensiveness and countering. Dark Souls 3 was just a slightly faster version of the Souls status quo. Nioh isn't even a souls game, but is hands down the hardest of the bunch. Sekiro again, shook up the status quo. Demon's Souls will be perceived as more easy than people remember if only because they're so used to the souls formula at this point. And that's in spite of them nerfing health items and bringing back the half health upon death mechanic.

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I'm not sure how any of this disputes the idea that the series has gotten increasingly difficult yet has gotten increasingly popular in complete contrast to the claim you made? If you have any indication that actually it's gotten less difficult which has corresponded to an increase in sales I'd be interested.

 

[In Amber Clad]

This thread has been going around in circles, so we're locking this to further replies. We will also be reviewing reports.