FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,699
Tokyo
I've been following this too. I've watched some of the popular YouTubers who are commenting on this (not subscribed to them) and I thought maybe I could offer some insight into this, and particularly why they're wrong...

First, this idea that Sweet Baby is rewriting or censoring games is absurd. The way a contractor like Sweet Baby functions is that it's at the request, of the creative directors present at a studio. It's not some post-production marketing trick where they go in and adjust the script of a game, it just doesn't function like that. These types of services and consultancy work, they get used because the games creative team says 'hey, we want to write a story about a gay black man, but none of us are gay black men, how do we approach that?'

In the industry and in the EDI consulting space, there is this saying 'nothing about us, without us' and this is in part why it's always best practice to include representative stakeholders in your stories and instances of representation. Otherwise, what you create might end up being harmful to those groups of people, and game developers and creatives in my experience do not want that. As I say, this isn't some mandate that comes down on high, game developers are generally very intelligent people and while they want to write about characters and situations outside their own lived experiences, they also recognise the value in including people with lived experience into that.

Sweet Baby isn't the face of this, either. This has moved towards standard practice across media production, and I do believe the 'nothing about us without us' approach is best practice. Sweet Baby is just a consultancy firm in this area which has more eyes on them, most often this work is conducted with individual consultancy and usually this consultancy work is not substantial enough to amount to a credit towards a game (most often a consultancy pass like this might only see someone work on the game for a few days or a week, and usually that isn't substantial enough to constitute a credit, that's a different issue, but that's reality).

In broader media, you have much more matured approaches to this. For instance, Channel 4 in the UK have a 'disability code of portrayal' which outlines the code of practice around how they handle the representation of people with disabilities in their media, including the objective that their media should strive to improve and increase, disability portrayal. Channel 4's example is a good one because they have published this for other organisations to view and use themselves, but most media production organisations, whether they're big games publishers or television production houses, have some similar goals outlined somewhere.

And I think anyone with any sense would acknowledge this as a good thing. If you look at the diversity in games, and in media, it has historically been very poor. Women have very rarely been leading characters, and most often they have been hypersexualised and used to push harmful stereotypes. It's the same in other areas, like disability, for example. Most often, characters with disabilities tend to be either villains, or objects of pity. It's extremely rare that they're empowered playable characters, and when they are, they tend to manifest as some super-powered ability. It's easy to see why game developers benefit from more support and guidance, when seeking to represent disabled characters.

And again, it's not because they're being forced to do so. These elements get into games because game developers want to write interesting stories about interesting characters, and diversity offers an opportunity to do that. So it's almost always the case that these instances of representation are led by people on the development team, and these people are usually creatives.

The other thing I want to speak against is this idea that games are this pure creative process to begin with. At the earliest ideation stages of a product a large production will establish its target audiences and then with a marketing department or a firm like quantic foundry they will most often end up telling you that your target audience is 32 years old male, and likes to be competitive and collecting things (or whatever). Then throughout the development process, user research will put their vision of the game in front of people from this product demographic to steer its design. This can lead to changes to gameplay, narrative and everything else.

I'm not saying this is censorship, either. But what I am saying is that these people like to pretend that speaking to a black consultant about representation is somehow disrupting this pure creative process, preventing the developer's vision for the game getting into the hands of their players. When, in reality, predominantly white male players have always steered the creative process. This is what risk-aversive game development has always looked like and if you're buying games like Suicide Squad you're never going to get that singular, pure creative vision, it's always going to be an amalgamation of thousands of perspectives, and it absolutely makes sense that there is a conscious effort to ensure that some of those perspectives are diverse and that people in minority and underrepresented groups are included in there.

This is especially true, while game development and the industry itself has a race problem, a gender problem, a socioeconomic status problem. Game development itself is not diverse, and the demographics of the people making games do not evenly represent the demographics of the population that they are trying to sell games to. In an ideal world we wouldn't have this social inequality, and we wouldn't need this kind of consultant involvement, but that is not the reality.

I do not think these people are consciously racist, but I do think they are racist. At the end of the day they are acting to preserve what they perceive is their culture, but that culture has been built predominantly by white men, almost exclusively for white men. So it's obviously going to feel like their culture is being attacked when they see it changing, and Sweet Baby Inc is an easy target that they can all point fingers at. I don't think we need to erase the white male protagonist or make every female character unattractive or anything like that, but we want more diverse, even-handed representation and Sweet Baby is an organisation that is emerged to fill that need and desire from the industry. It's not Sweet Baby's existence imposing these perspectives on their studios, it's these studios reaching out to Sweet Baby (and many other avenues) to help them answer questions that they cannot easily answer with their internal resources.

I can't speak to any of Sweet Baby's work, I don't know anyone there, I have never worked with them. However, the demand here comes from the industry itself. It comes from the players playing games and wanting to see more characters that resemble them featured, and from the creatives making games that want to make diverse games without reinforcing harmful stereotypes and prejudice.

The final comment I want to add is even when you recruit a consultancy firm to look at your dialogue, or you get players in to give feedback on the games' story before it's released, I have never seen an instance where you allow that external involvement to have the final say in any design feature. It's always up to the creatives and designers to take that feedback and produce something that the thing is right for their vision of the game. If Forspoken is a bad game (and I'm not saying it is, I haven't played it) it's bad because of the choices the designers made. Regardless of external involvement, they are both responsible and accountable for the creative output. This isn't a book being adjusted after an author has died (which I do not take issue with either provided the original is also preserved), the creatives are always actively involved, and ultimately they determine the final output that players see.



If we're being honest, it's a certain youtuber/streamer with many millions of subs/followers that's bringing this to the widest audience and taking it beyond the typical bigoted circles. Not this thread on ERA, and yes I do think it's worthwhile that discourse exists that pushes back against the rhetoric.

Yep.

Not sure who said it, probably someone on here, the developers themselves ask places like SBI to oversee their script because they already have the idea of what they want they just need to make sure it works.
People getting upset over this are foolish. The developers want this.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
56,497
Yeah.

I've slowly gone insane over recent online discourse else about a few different franchises, because there's a fair amount of people who seem to think that if the protagonist has any negative qualities the author is defending them (because people think protagonists have to be good people now???), or, worse, that if there's anything bad the author actively supports it.

Like, you know, ignoring that the whole context of the story is important.
Blame people's lack of media literacy for that. Casual reminder that we get memes like the "you're not supposed to idolize them starter pack" explicitly because large contingents of the audience, especially men, have trouble parsing that you aren't supposed to co-sign everything a protagonist does
Yep.

Not sure who said it, probably someone on here, the developers themselves ask places like SBI to oversee their script because they already have the idea of what they want they just need to make sure it works.
People getting upset over this are foolish. The developers want this.
NO, THE DEVELOPERS HATE BLACK PEOPLE AND WOMEN TOO!!! THEYRE BEING FORCED TO CHANGE THEIR VISION BECAUSE OF THE WOKE(said with a hard R) AGENDA!! 😡😡😡

This is unironically how gamers think this shit works and it's like, actually insane.
 

JakeNoseIt

Catch My Drift
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
4,593
There's nothing of substance behind what the people going crazy about this are saying. All they're doing is showing you who they are. Unfortunately, it's a very lucrative strategy for people to draw a line in the sand and claim, "this is what separates us from them."
 

RocknRola

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,159
Portugal
It makes sense that consultation for these sort of things happen on an industrial scale. And they're needed to be honest.


I will say though, "Sweet Baby" sure is a choice of a name for a company.
 

Paroni

Member
Dec 17, 2020
3,912
I've been completely off all of this and regardless as of RIGHT NOW just entered on Steam to see the patch notes for the new helldivers update and the comments are just hideous -- and full of steam 'gifts' to promote the comments and create fake engagement, Twitter's Melon Tusk approach tbh. Steam and Valve should be held accountable but they won't do shit unfortunately
I felt morbidly curious and god damn, didn't really expect it to be this weird.
It must be rough to just exist when you go out of your way to engage with something as ultimately trivial as entertainment like this.

o4Odl5v.png
 
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zanyfen

Member
Jun 1, 2018
10
When I read that they worked on the script for Alan Wake 2 I thought why would anyone ever lead with that, that makes them look BETTER.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
11,022
It feels like there's an attempt at Gamergate 2.0 every week. All chuds do is complain about video games trying to recreate that original dipshit groundswell but there are too many imagined "controversies" going on for any one of them to gain much traction.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,567
Just as a generality, remember that not everyone use words because they have meaning, some people use words to achieve an effect. They don't care if what they're saying is gibberish as long as they think they'll achieve a goal by saying it.

A good example is the use of "pronouns" as in the screenshot above. Pronouns are a generic grammatical component of the English language. It's just a basic thing we do when we talk, because much of the grammatical information in our language is handled through strict word order, and we need to have something there to maintain that word order even if we no longer need to keep telling you who we're discussing. In the English-speaking world, cis people like myself are using pronouns and learning to associate people with pronouns, often before we learn that trans people are a thing that exist. You can't not "add pronouns" to a game with English text because it's going to sound ridiculous to an anglophone's ear.

But talking about pronouns as if they're some strange new alien thing that trans people just invented is a means to delegitimize people who are just asking for their preferred pronouns to be respected. It doesn't matter to them that the thing they're saying doesn't make sense, it's just a tool to mark who they're trying to target and signal to sympathetic people to get on board.

More specific to this, I'm not sure it's even important whether or not they understand what this company does. They're probably not legitimately under the impression that artistic integrity is being violated by someone outside game development. Rather, they see people wanting to come in and found a narrative that they can use to claim that they should be out.
 
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HylianSeven

Shin Megami TC - Community Resetter
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,582
This whole thing made me aware that Craig "Stuttering Craig" Skistimas really is a piece of shit. I had not followed him since he left ScrewAttack, but goddamn if you look at his Twitter for two seconds it's awful. He has a ton of tweets where he does streams for...something (?)....about this Sweet Baby Inc. stuff, and I've seen tweets from him about the "LGBTQ Agenda" and and even a tweet in support of the transphobic genocidal wizard book author. I didn't particularly look up to the guy, just thought his content was occasionally a fun watch back in the day, but it always sucks to hear when people suck now.

Of course, I also see some of his content that really did not age well brought back up, so chances are he probably always sucked.
 
Jun 7, 2018
1,595
I know they've been banned already but holy shit, tne irony and lack of self-awareness in saying "people get too easily offended nowadays", while at the very same time literally supporting the most easily offended, overly-sensitive, self-pitying group of whiners..
 
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Melody Shreds

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,974
Terminal Dogma
Assuming you more mean "so long as a game isn't arguing bigotry is good"/"wasn't created in a bigoted way"?

Because there absolutely should be bad acts of all kinds in all forms of media, so long as it's not being argued by the creator that it's a good thing.

Like, a villain should be able to be bigoted in-game. And that villain can try to do some wack ass justification for it. And other characters should be able to poke the holes in that.
Yes I meant a game clearly arguing for bigotry as opposed being clearly against it. Of course inserting too much bigotry on the part of the villains can unintentionally result in the South Park affect so it is something to look out for.
 
Jun 17, 2023
1,166
Elysia's Loving Embrace
OP
OP
Mattmo831

Mattmo831

Featuring Mattmo831 from the Apple v Epic case
Member
Oct 26, 2020
4,996
kotaku.com

Sweet Baby Inc. Doesn’t Do What Some Gamers Think It Does

No, one company isn’t ‘forcing’ diversity into all your favorite video games

Good article from Kotaku
in classic fashion. the creator of the steam group is now urgently requesting everyone who is part of the group to not speak to any media outlets because of the result of this article (cause it makes the supporters look like dumbasses) and the group is convinced this article is gaslighting them and they are wrong.
 

Astraea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
979
Canada
I hate Steam community. Recently played Banishers and the discussions were as predictable as you'd expect.

Reported the group anyway, though nothing will happen to them.
 

Kinanza

Member
Jun 25, 2018
577
I have a question, we had a lot of diversity from games before gamergate was a thing. Why is it people get bent over nowadays because of it?
 

plagiarize

Entering pupa stage
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
28,418
Cape Cod, MA
I have a question, we had a lot of diversity from games before gamergate was a thing. Why is it people get bent over nowadays because of it?
Because online gaming fandom was much more dominated by men in those days, and women and minorities didn't come into those spaces and point out the problematic stuff in the games they liked.
 
Oct 27, 2017
134
Toronto
I have a question, we had a lot of diversity from games before gamergate was a thing.

Eh, I don't think we had *that* much, and there were other trends going on I think that made Gamers extra insecure about the industry no longer catering exclusively to them, like the push for non-traditional audiences and mobile, etc. Gaming was not just AAA console/PC stuff any more. Also, GG is really when far-right bad faith actors started weaponizing gaming stuff specifically, I think, and they were intentional and sadly effective at it.
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,995
There is no group that knows less about how video games are made than the terminally online gamer.
 
May 21, 2018
2,312
I have a question, we had a lot of diversity from games before gamergate was a thing. Why is it people get bent over nowadays because of it?

On top of the other responses, a good portion is certain youtubers and other influences misrepresenting and magnifying the subject matter, all to get money from the chuds.

Manufactured outrage is a lucrative business.

kotaku.com

Sweet Baby Inc. Doesn’t Do What Some Gamers Think It Does

No, one company isn’t ‘forcing’ diversity into all your favorite video games

Good article from Kotaku

The meme image of "Embrace tradition, reject modernity," is HILARIOUS.

Do they not know how conservatively women were expected to dress in the olden days?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,437
kotaku.com

Sweet Baby Inc. Doesn’t Do What Some Gamers Think It Does

No, one company isn’t ‘forcing’ diversity into all your favorite video games

Good article from Kotaku

Despite the intensity of the backlash over the past few weeks, it's business as usual for Sweet Baby Inc. The companies they work with haven't been scared off—they've actually offered advice and best practices for how to move forward, practices they have developed after facing harassment of their own, Belair tells me. With that kind of support in their corner, and a shared love for writing good stories, the team at Sweet Baby Inc. is determined to forge on and keep working on a litany of games—both announced and under wraps.

Nice to see that it's all just ineffectual moaning in the end, at least.
 

Rose

Member
Feb 2, 2019
54
Just found out about it via Kotaku. Apparently it's the sixth most followed curator on Steam and the most followed of those created after 2015.

With this and top game reviews like "I love racism" and openly white supremacist Steam groups doing fine, I don't know how anyone can ever defend or want to support this platform.
 

Vex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,303
Eh, I don't think we had *that* much, and there were other trends going on I think that made Gamers extra insecure about the industry no longer catering exclusively to them, like the push for non-traditional audiences and mobile, etc
I remember that.

Remember when people would call certain games "shovel-ware" on the Wii? Gamers were really hating that gaming was opening up to a more casual audience.
 

Elfgore

Member
Mar 2, 2020
4,866
This reminds me why I completely ignored this shit on the first major go around. You ever encounter something so ungodly stupid and such a non-issue you ignored it? That has been anything even near gamergate for me.

Lo and behold too, I still don't get it. Yes, Saga Anderson is black because of a consulting agency, not because of oddly enough potential story reasons or because they just wanted a black woman as a character.
 

EnigmaXtreme

Member
Mar 18, 2018
11
This whole thing made me aware that Craig "Stuttering Craig" Skistimas really is a piece of shit. I had not followed him since he left ScrewAttack, but goddamn if you look at his Twitter for two seconds it's awful. He has a ton of tweets where he does streams for...something (?)....about this Sweet Baby Inc. stuff, and I've seen tweets from him about the "LGBTQ Agenda" and and even a tweet in support of the transphobic genocidal wizard book author. I didn't particularly look up to the guy, just thought his content was occasionally a fun watch back in the day, but it always sucks to hear when people suck now.

Of course, I also see some of his content that really did not age well brought back up, so chances are he probably always sucked.
What happened to Stuttering Craig, he seemed like a fun-loving guy back during the Screwattack days but now is doing podcasts with guys like raz0rfist?!

Was he always like this and I just didn't know?
 

DuckSauce

Powered by Friendship™
Member
Aug 19, 2023
980
I have a question, we had a lot of diversity from games before gamergate was a thing. Why is it people get bent over nowadays because of it?
Because the word woke has lost all meaning and is now primarily used for describing literally anything you don't like. It doesn't even have to make sense, it is now substituted for even the most basic of words similar to the "like" pause or join usage you hear teenagers frequently utilise. As such, everyone is digging up old content or taking a flawed magnifying glass to try and uncover the hot goss so they can grift for that easy cash.

The word woke was first used (from my memory) as a means of stating how someone or something is unable to see the truth and instead surrounding themselves in conspiracies for affirmation. Now its just a garbage word that easily identifies morons.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
56,497
I have a question, we had a lot of diversity from games before gamergate was a thing. Why is it people get bent over nowadays because of it?
It should be pointed out that we absolutely did not have a lot of diversity and that a lot of said diversity was rooted in stereotypes and sometimes outright racism. Take Sheva from RE5 as an example, she follows so many sexualized WOC tropes that it's outright offensive, right down to having a "sexy tribal" outfit.
 

Seik

Member
Jan 5, 2023
2,339
Québec City
This whole thing made me aware that Craig "Stuttering Craig" Skistimas really is a piece of shit. I had not followed him since he left ScrewAttack, but goddamn if you look at his Twitter for two seconds it's awful. He has a ton of tweets where he does streams for...something (?)....about this Sweet Baby Inc. stuff, and I've seen tweets from him about the "LGBTQ Agenda" and and even a tweet in support of the transphobic genocidal wizard book author. I didn't particularly look up to the guy, just thought his content was occasionally a fun watch back in the day, but it always sucks to hear when people suck now.

Of course, I also see some of his content that really did not age well brought back up, so chances are he probably always sucked.
I started checking his nowadays stuff after the DSP interview. I liked him a lot during the GT days along with Handsome Tom, and yeah, dude is definitely right wing, anti-vaxx, saying stuff like 'We can't say anything nowadays' and all the usual jazz that comes with these folks.

Funnily enough he also shilled the Amico for Tommy Tallarico and was at one of his events.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
51,567
I was just thinking, would this even remotely become Gamersgate 2.0 if it hadn't been posted here. Like I'd have not even known about this and now this is going to be higher in the gaming discourse because of the thread?

Making a disclaimer this isn't an attack on OP but feeding the chuds with fame never ends well.
I think we need to grow out of the "don't feed the trolls" narrative a bit. The idea is aimed at attention hogs, where giving them negative attention is directly rewarding them and encouraging them to keep doing what they're doing. It doesn't apply as much to people who are trying to suck people into their community, pressure companies and things like that - you stop shining a spotlight on them and they'll just keep up their harmful activities in the dark.

Remember, by the time Gamergate was at its height, it was already deplatformed; after being thrown off of /v/ it just took its people off to Gamergate-controlled haunts.

That's not thumb my nose at deplatforming, but the people who should be deplatforming them is the people who are giving them a large platform to carry out their activities in. That's not going to be here because they can't actually do anything directly or control their own narrative here, but places like Steam, Twitter, and YouTube.
 
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Semfry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,082
I think we need to grow out of the "don't feed the trolls" narrative a bit. The idea is aimed at attention hogs, where giving them negative attention is directly rewarding them and encouraging them to keep doing what they're doing.

The problem is that "troll" has had it's meaning twisted so hard (both unintentionally and intentionally by bad faith actors who want their harassment targets to shut up and take it) that many people clearly don't even know what it even referred to. An actual troll is purely looking for attention and angry reactions and "don't feed the troll" is good advice there because that's the only thing driving them and there's nothing there when you starve them of what they want.

Anything driven by actual ideology beyond random chaos is not remotely "trolling" and the same tactics don't work because it actually has a motivation beyond the reaction of it's target(s) and exists beyond them.
 
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crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,568
Gatorland
in classic fashion. the creator of the steam group is now urgently requesting everyone who is part of the group to not speak to any media outlets because of the result of this article (cause it makes the supporters look like dumbasses) and the group is convinced this article is gaslighting them and they are wrong.

Quite interesting how these rightwing ragebait movements are always based on conspiracy theories. And they always circle back to begging people to stay in the bubble the second they start getting the slightest of fact-checks.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,344
I do feel like climate/trend have changed significantly during past 5 years.

Like many popular Star Wars/MCU/films critics or twitch streamers I used to watch become less enthusiastic and more reactionary.

The rage bait videos would bring so many views, and people are loving(consuming)it.

The most recent example of this was Chris Stuckmans video on Madame Web.

Where instead of just bashing the movie, the writers, the actors, he instead decided to talk about Sony Pictures and how studio meddling results in movies like Madame Web…

And twitter/youtube went after him because he didn't do the typical "just bash the movie and everyone who worked on it" because he instead approached his video in a much more interesting manner now that he is a film maker.

And people are still complaining or calling him a shill, when he spends his entire video criticizing Sony pictures.

There was a spot on quote tweet saying that response to Stuckman shows that a lot of people just want to pretend to be critical when it's just an excuse to dump on something.
 

SilentStorm

Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,325
Quite interesting how these rightwing ragebait movements are always based on conspiracy theories. And they always circle back to begging people to stay in the bubble the second they start getting the slightest of fact-checks.
I guess because they make money out of people's anger, and people who seem to get into ANTI-WOKE stuff seemingly really really get into it and willing to give views and money to people.

So they can't lose their market, i bet a few of these content creators don't even care about this at all, not care about things being WOKE, but are willing to make the world a bit worse because of money.
 

Ashionok

Member
Nov 7, 2022
2,068
The most recent example of this was Chris Stuckmans video on Madame Web.

Where instead of just bashing the movie, the writers, the actors, he instead decided to talk about Sony Pictures and how studio meddling results in movies like Madame Web…

And twitter/youtube went after him because he didn't do the typical "just bash the movie and everyone who worked on it" because he instead approached his video in a much more interesting manner now that he is a film maker.

And people are still complaining or calling him a shill, when he spends his entire video criticizing Sony pictures.

There was a spot on quote tweet saying that response to Stuckman shows that a lot of people just want to pretend to be critical when it's just an excuse to dump on something.
Not to excuse the people coming after him, but I feel my problem with Stuckman personally is that he barely criticizes anything in movies specifically anymore ever since he got into the movie industry. And that's intentional on his part I'm pretty sure, because I think he himself said he wouldn't criticize movies anymore in a video from a while back, but I feel that that ruins the main purpose of his channel to a degree, of eing a movie critic.
 

Rigby-Nick

Member
Aug 5, 2022
275
I hate the youtube algorithm so much, I don't watch these angry bozos, but their videos always pop up on my recommendations.
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
37,858
I felt morbidly curious and god damn, didn't really expect it to be this weird.
It must be rough to just exist when you go out of your way to engage with something as ultimately trivial as entertainment like this.

o4Odl5v.png

these are the fascists the game is trying to make fun of