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Game of Thrones: Was it possible to have a satisfying ending to the Night King Arc
- Thread starter CountAntonio
- Start date
There wasn't, really. They painted themselves in a corner with that stupid Night King plot.
Man, this annoyed the shit out of me. How do the showrunners and directors etc. not see how ridiculous and obviously inconsistent that shit is? Same with the wights being an unstoppable raging force and one minute later, slow-walking in the library like dumb zombies so Arya can have her Solid Snake moment. So, so dumb.
Wut. Robb isn't a classic hero, he's not even a POV character. You'd have a better point if you talked about Ned Stark.
Sure!
Personally, I really liked that t was Arya. I mean we accept that there are characters who get other characters to where they need to be, but for some reason that's not good enough for jon snow. He got within what, 100 feet from the night king, and managed to get all the pieces i place to get arya to defeat him. He is the real MVP of that arc, but since it wasn't him to actually kill him people hate that arc. I love it. But the path to it was rushed, like many said here, there needed to be some parallels between arya's training and the nigh king, and much more character development for the night king, a season just for that.
Personally, I really liked that t was Arya. I mean we accept that there are characters who get other characters to where they need to be, but for some reason that's not good enough for jon snow. He got within what, 100 feet from the night king, and managed to get all the pieces i place to get arya to defeat him. He is the real MVP of that arc, but since it wasn't him to actually kill him people hate that arc. I love it. But the path to it was rushed, like many said here, there needed to be some parallels between arya's training and the nigh king, and much more character development for the night king, a season just for that.
I think so, even if it was cliche. Arya teleporting behind NK and using the knife trick was lame. They should have focused on that arc more, completely baffled as to why creators opted to have fewer episodes than what HBO offered (if the reports were true)
No offence but that's a cliche. The Azor Azai prophecy didn't really go anywhere in the show but knowing how GRRM writes dodgy prophecies , Jon probably won't be a chosen one figure. In the show he ended up being an assassin and getting banished with Ygritte's freefolk which I also think is the bittersweet ending GRRM has mentioned.
Also, Jon could end up changing into a White Walker. Just please anything other than season 8.
I know but in any other story, Rob would have become the protagonist and killed Joffrey or Tywin in a sword fight, those two get killed by wedding poisoning and killed on the crapper, which my point is The Night's King dying before the climax, gets assassinated, rather than having a sword fight, kind of fits in the style of Game of Thrones.
I still prefer how it went in the actual show. Arya showing up out of nowhere will always make me smile with Glee. 'Twas dope. I got the moment on a T-Shirt I liked it so much. That said, the Night King was never that interesting of a villain to me on a personal level. It was the raised dead that was scary and I think the horde went out with a suitable bang.
They should have spent an entire season with humanity being slowly driven back by the Night King until they were forced into a last stand at Kings' Landing. Then Cersei should have taken the opportunity to betray her allies and throw the entire thing into chaos.
There were complex and interesting ways to end the series, and D&D chose none of them.
There were complex and interesting ways to end the series, and D&D chose none of them.
This, Just like killing Cersi was Arya's. Neither got their moment
The books heavily imply that Dany is actually the "prince", as the Valyrian word for it can mean either man or woman.
What ticks me off about the whole Arya thing is that D&D decided to include the scene with Melisandre where the prophecy is retconned about 10 mins before the NK is killed.
Not an episode or two before, not a season ago, no, but in the same episode where the NK dies. It just felt so utterly tacked on, desperately trying to make it "okay" that Jon Snow's arc has essentially led nowhere.
People often say that Dany is the one that got shafted the hardest by the final season but as far as I'm concerned, it's Jon. He was COMPLETELY disconnected from the entire season, aside from the one scene where he stabs Dany. And even that actually leads into one of the worst scenes of the entire show, the absolutely mind blowingly stupid council scene where they pick a new ruler.
Not an episode or two before, not a season ago, no, but in the same episode where the NK dies. It just felt so utterly tacked on, desperately trying to make it "okay" that Jon Snow's arc has essentially led nowhere.
People often say that Dany is the one that got shafted the hardest by the final season but as far as I'm concerned, it's Jon. He was COMPLETELY disconnected from the entire season, aside from the one scene where he stabs Dany. And even that actually leads into one of the worst scenes of the entire show, the absolutely mind blowingly stupid council scene where they pick a new ruler.
You know how Dr. Strange saw exactly one timeline where the good guys "win," and the whole of Infinity War / Endgame is predicated on this idea that everything that happens - big, small, good, bad, random, etc - is exactly what needs to happen to achieve this single good ending?
That's basically what they were going for, though I definitely think it could have been more clear and executed A LOT better. (Bran is Dr. Strange)
The Catspaw dagger delivering the blow is a metaphor, signaling to the audience that all of the events set in motion around the beginning of the story where ultimately responsible for creating this precise set of circumstances for victory; a final stand at Winterfell, an army united by two charismatic leaders, some of the greatest warriors from across the land, and a dude who can literally see beyond simple causality. Everything is in its right place, it just doesn't feel that way because of all the suffering everyone has endured to get there.
The "chosen" heroes were never actually chosen to do anything beyond fail though, and the audience simply expected things to turn out better than they did. Hell, the fact that they did such a bad job at fighting his army is exactly what drove the Night's King out for his victory lap. There is no other condition where the opportunity would have presented itself otherwise.
So to answer your question, I think it could have been satisfying if the whole season wasn't so rushed and they spent the adequate time playing to the series' own strengths. BUT the ending we got was a hell of a lot better than some of these trash fanfics where Jon Snow 1v1 duels the Night's King. Eww, gross.
That's basically what they were going for, though I definitely think it could have been more clear and executed A LOT better. (Bran is Dr. Strange)
The Catspaw dagger delivering the blow is a metaphor, signaling to the audience that all of the events set in motion around the beginning of the story where ultimately responsible for creating this precise set of circumstances for victory; a final stand at Winterfell, an army united by two charismatic leaders, some of the greatest warriors from across the land, and a dude who can literally see beyond simple causality. Everything is in its right place, it just doesn't feel that way because of all the suffering everyone has endured to get there.
The "chosen" heroes were never actually chosen to do anything beyond fail though, and the audience simply expected things to turn out better than they did. Hell, the fact that they did such a bad job at fighting his army is exactly what drove the Night's King out for his victory lap. There is no other condition where the opportunity would have presented itself otherwise.
So to answer your question, I think it could have been satisfying if the whole season wasn't so rushed and they spent the adequate time playing to the series' own strengths. BUT the ending we got was a hell of a lot better than some of these trash fanfics where Jon Snow 1v1 duels the Night's King. Eww, gross.
Not in the episode where they tried to concoct a reason he needs to kill Bran and it didn't really make any sense.
It would have been better if it was just mindlessly kill the living but they created some logic why Bran was so important for him to personally need to find and kill and it felt like nonsense.
Not to mention he kills her after basically being told by two different people that he should kill her. It's not even from his own conviction, same with him being sent to the wall vs him choosing exile.
He was a pretty nothing character in season 8.
There should have been no night king. The army should have just swept past Winterfell and decimated a large portion of Daenery's and Winterfell's troups and finally been defeated in a normal battle.
One and done.
The only purpose of the white walkers was to wipe out a large portion of the allied armies.
One and done.
The only purpose of the white walkers was to wipe out a large portion of the allied armies.
It's kind of blurry because Arya may have been the princess who was promised as she killed the great other. And Jon didn't use a sword to kill Dany, but a dagger and nothing to do with light bringer. I mean the prophecy may have been metaphorical but I think it's more likely the show runners just couldn't work in the prophecy in the finale.
I knew someone would say that lol. You know what I mean!
Missandei also says this in season 7. Though you could still interpret it to mean Arya, who is sort of a princess in a sense.
Jon killing Dany is kind of important, and his torn loyalties between Dany and Sansa throughout the season are also kind of important.
Except it doesn't. This dude and his army wrecked the ever living shit out of the living the last time around. Why is subverting expectations suddenly something that makes sense in universe during this 5 year period, than the preceding 10,000 years?
only if the style of Game of Thrones is narratively unfulfilling bullshit.
They needed more than one episode -- maybe half the season.
They should have stopped the Wight advance at Winterfell, and then taken the fight to them. Fought them all the way North to where they originated and defeated them once and for all then and there. Have a big epic battle with wights, NK, Jon Snow and Dragons.
That would have been more interesting.
EDIT: Winterfell could have been their "Battle of the Bulge" moment. And then, the good guys go on the offensive and kick their ass.
They should have stopped the Wight advance at Winterfell, and then taken the fight to them. Fought them all the way North to where they originated and defeated them once and for all then and there. Have a big epic battle with wights, NK, Jon Snow and Dragons.
That would have been more interesting.
EDIT: Winterfell could have been their "Battle of the Bulge" moment. And then, the good guys go on the offensive and kick their ass.
Actually going back to the final confrontation in the show, having John plunge his sword into a loved one's heart to bring out Lightbringer as Azor Ahai reborn could have worked. Or make it as cliche as possible and have him plunge it into Vyserion's heart. At least something to tie in the prophecy would have brought some closure to that whole story line.
I wish they had played up Dany not believing that Jon was a Targ, culminating with the show putting her in a position where she had to blast both Jon and the Night King with dragonfire. The Night King is destroyed, but Jon survives, just like Dany did in season 1. Then, I don't know, Dany goes crazy knowing there's another Targ with a claim to the throne.
it also wouldve been the best outcome instead of magical ninja
Nah they had the right order. Both subplots ended up sucking, but the NK is literally an ice zombie that doesn't speak, talk about boring...
Jon would have been turned to ash. He burnt himself in season one remember?
This. Should have won the battle of Winterfell by killing enough of his commanders, but when it's all done no one has see the knight king or his dragon. Cut to Kings Landing as Cersi flees as the city is torched by the dragon and all the people are turned into an even larger army, and the Night King sits on the throne as his new undead army spreads throughout Westeros.
Thrones has always tried to subvert exceptions though or deconstruction, like the Red Wedding, I think GRRM admited he HAD to kill of Rob Stark after Eddard, to avoid the typical revenge story. The show was worse at executing these types of subversions though.
Yes. But Martin described what happened to Dany as "unique, magical, wondrous, a miracle," so maybe that applies to Jon in this case as well.
Yes. My pitch, which is not too far off a few others, would be that Winterfell would have fallen at great cost to the heroes and the survivors would escape death by hiding in the crypts, where the old spells were active. The Night King would be killed in battle -my spitball take would be to have some combination of Bran, Jon, Arya, and Thoros achieve it, losing Bran, Jon, and Thoros in the process, sorta fulfilling their reborn purpose. Bran could warg into one of the living dragons, lose his body to a Wight, then die as the Dragon trying to kill the NK. No poofing of the army occurs - instead just no more White Walkers can be made as the NK was the only one that could. This could play out immediately - one of the heroes strikes down the NK, pauses briefly expecting a reprieve, then is swarmed by the dead. This leaves the WW army and Wights (who can still die when individual WWs die), which is still massive, as a lingering threat that as a small piece of hope could be whittled away.
The WW army leaves Winterfell after encountering the crypt spells, leaving behind a sufficiently large army to wait out the survivors as the main army heads south. Survivors begin to grow desperate - Dany escaped on the last remaining dragon, but can't assist the survivors. Eventually Mellisandre and Yara return - Mellisandre with the Second Sons and Dany's army (remember those fanatically loyal people across the sea? Maybe use those...) from Essos, Yara with what Ironborn and Northern forces she could. Between the two armies and the crypt survivors they're able to beat the army that was left behind and free the survivors. You establish some hope, but with the grim realization that the dead have a big head start and are headed south.
At this point the two armies head south with all speed, mostly encountering devastation and just some survivors (along with lingering undead). Twins, Riverrun, Harrenhall are all devoid of life (explicitly show this for effect and contrast). They only catch up with the WW army at King's Landing, where the WW have already breached the gates. The living are being overwhelmed, having no means to kill the WW.
You could play out the ending in two ways - Cersei opts to use the Wildfire to wipe out kings landing in a desperate bid to fight off the WW, or Dany, having been left little choice as the WW starts turning the masses in KL, does an act similar to The Bells and is forced to attack the mixed living/dead within the city. Either she sets off the Wildfire, or is able to turn the tide, but either way she causes the deaths of an immense number of people by trying to help. Cersei becomes the Mad Queen, or Dany becomes the Doomed Queen (that whole flip a coin thing is commoner talk, it wasn't supposed to be an actual thing!).
Dany as a result decides that she cannot stay, foreshadowed by the extreme efforts she had made to protect her subjects over the years, returns to Essos to resume rule there, abandoning her birthright.
The Westeros survivors start to pick up the pieces.
Of the Starks, Arya and Sansa live, Brienne lives (having seen Jaime die saving her during the Winterfell battle) and commits to her oath to protect them. Arya maybe opts to sneak off to explore Essos. Euron dies in whatever undignified way could be thought of as he tries to sail off when the WW arrive. Tyrion stays in Westeros, perhaps going to Lannisport to act as new head of the house, alone.
Could mix up a few things there (eg Jamie survives Winterfell, kills Cersei in part due to rage as to what he had transpired), but I feel that would be a bittersweet ending that tries to stick to some of the themes of the series.
The WW army leaves Winterfell after encountering the crypt spells, leaving behind a sufficiently large army to wait out the survivors as the main army heads south. Survivors begin to grow desperate - Dany escaped on the last remaining dragon, but can't assist the survivors. Eventually Mellisandre and Yara return - Mellisandre with the Second Sons and Dany's army (remember those fanatically loyal people across the sea? Maybe use those...) from Essos, Yara with what Ironborn and Northern forces she could. Between the two armies and the crypt survivors they're able to beat the army that was left behind and free the survivors. You establish some hope, but with the grim realization that the dead have a big head start and are headed south.
At this point the two armies head south with all speed, mostly encountering devastation and just some survivors (along with lingering undead). Twins, Riverrun, Harrenhall are all devoid of life (explicitly show this for effect and contrast). They only catch up with the WW army at King's Landing, where the WW have already breached the gates. The living are being overwhelmed, having no means to kill the WW.
You could play out the ending in two ways - Cersei opts to use the Wildfire to wipe out kings landing in a desperate bid to fight off the WW, or Dany, having been left little choice as the WW starts turning the masses in KL, does an act similar to The Bells and is forced to attack the mixed living/dead within the city. Either she sets off the Wildfire, or is able to turn the tide, but either way she causes the deaths of an immense number of people by trying to help. Cersei becomes the Mad Queen, or Dany becomes the Doomed Queen (that whole flip a coin thing is commoner talk, it wasn't supposed to be an actual thing!).
Dany as a result decides that she cannot stay, foreshadowed by the extreme efforts she had made to protect her subjects over the years, returns to Essos to resume rule there, abandoning her birthright.
The Westeros survivors start to pick up the pieces.
Of the Starks, Arya and Sansa live, Brienne lives (having seen Jaime die saving her during the Winterfell battle) and commits to her oath to protect them. Arya maybe opts to sneak off to explore Essos. Euron dies in whatever undignified way could be thought of as he tries to sail off when the WW arrive. Tyrion stays in Westeros, perhaps going to Lannisport to act as new head of the house, alone.
Could mix up a few things there (eg Jamie survives Winterfell, kills Cersei in part due to rage as to what he had transpired), but I feel that would be a bittersweet ending that tries to stick to some of the themes of the series.
Yes, sure. I dunno if this would be perfect but I'd suggest the following changes
1.) The "good guys" lose at Winterfell and are forced to retreat. Jon does fight the Night King head to head and loses and is forced to bail.
2.) The White Walkers continue South taking control of various other areas. The "united people" are pushed back every time. Hope is lost.
3.) BRAN. Fucking BRAN. You have to use BRAN. Why? Because you know he is going to be crowned king at the end of the story. USE. BRAN. Like what the fuck? Bran uses his mental magic to go back in time and we see something about the Night King's past. I don't know what specifically, maybe he sees some version of the Night Queen, some other events are the origins of the White Walkers, maybe some dark secret that ties in to the Starks (D&D had some leeway here since the NK is not canonical per se to the books, so they could incorporate things as they wish). Something juicy. But he gains knowledge about how the NK thinks and how they can draw him out.
4.) The "united good people" fall back south to either The God's Eye (where the original pact between humans and the children of forest was signed) or to the outskirts of King's Landing itself.
5.) Bran confers with the Children of the Forest and learns even more about the Night King.
6.) Other united armies hearing what is happening in the North finally agree to join under Dany/Sansa to make humanity's last stand. Epic battle ensues, Bran and the Night King "lock minds", Bran maybe alters some event in the past (he can TIME TRAVEL and you never used THIS again, lol). Jaime takes out the NK's top lieutenant allowing others to get at the NK. Jon and Arya work together, Jon fights the NK physically while Bran is "mind fucking" him leaving him vulnerable, and if you want Arya to land the killing blow fine, whatever. The Stark triad of Jon-Bran-Arya get it done with Jaime providing a huge assist. All of them pay off their story arcs because victory would not have been possible without any one of them and they all worked together so hurrah for cooperation (it's a message humankind should heed).
After all the fighting the NK is done, it's decided that Dany's forces don't have the strength to take King's Landing without it being a slaughter and that everyone is tired of war. Many of the remaining forces agree she should fall back to concede King's Landing to Cersei. Others are loyal to Dany. But this is too much for Dany and she decides she can't do that having come so close. She goes for the throne, even if it means another war has to ensue. Jon kills her at the end to prevent thousands of people from dying (from his POV).
I mean basically that stuff is GRRM's ending points I think, so I'll give him that.
1.) The "good guys" lose at Winterfell and are forced to retreat. Jon does fight the Night King head to head and loses and is forced to bail.
2.) The White Walkers continue South taking control of various other areas. The "united people" are pushed back every time. Hope is lost.
3.) BRAN. Fucking BRAN. You have to use BRAN. Why? Because you know he is going to be crowned king at the end of the story. USE. BRAN. Like what the fuck? Bran uses his mental magic to go back in time and we see something about the Night King's past. I don't know what specifically, maybe he sees some version of the Night Queen, some other events are the origins of the White Walkers, maybe some dark secret that ties in to the Starks (D&D had some leeway here since the NK is not canonical per se to the books, so they could incorporate things as they wish). Something juicy. But he gains knowledge about how the NK thinks and how they can draw him out.
4.) The "united good people" fall back south to either The God's Eye (where the original pact between humans and the children of forest was signed) or to the outskirts of King's Landing itself.
5.) Bran confers with the Children of the Forest and learns even more about the Night King.
6.) Other united armies hearing what is happening in the North finally agree to join under Dany/Sansa to make humanity's last stand. Epic battle ensues, Bran and the Night King "lock minds", Bran maybe alters some event in the past (he can TIME TRAVEL and you never used THIS again, lol). Jaime takes out the NK's top lieutenant allowing others to get at the NK. Jon and Arya work together, Jon fights the NK physically while Bran is "mind fucking" him leaving him vulnerable, and if you want Arya to land the killing blow fine, whatever. The Stark triad of Jon-Bran-Arya get it done with Jaime providing a huge assist. All of them pay off their story arcs because victory would not have been possible without any one of them and they all worked together so hurrah for cooperation (it's a message humankind should heed).
After all the fighting the NK is done, it's decided that Dany's forces don't have the strength to take King's Landing without it being a slaughter and that everyone is tired of war. Many of the remaining forces agree she should fall back to concede King's Landing to Cersei. Others are loyal to Dany. But this is too much for Dany and she decides she can't do that having come so close. She goes for the throne, even if it means another war has to ensue. Jon kills her at the end to prevent thousands of people from dying (from his POV).
I mean basically that stuff is GRRM's ending points I think, so I'll give him that.
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There are dozens of ways we could have had a more satisfying ending, but given the whole theme seemed to be that the wars of kings were petty and pointless when there was this great evil lurking in the shadow it's really insulting that that plotline was resolved so quickly and easily in a single battle and then the war between two queens became the focus for the end of the series. It felt like it was missing the whole point.
Lol Arya was literally camping in a bush and none of the walkers smelled her even with their super smell. All that "winter is coming" BS, all that buildup these creatures got, all that fear every house had for them, and the one and only Night King dies to a kid that has never even had experience fighting them...in one blow.
They undid whatever "good" years it might have had with that last season. When you know what it's all building toward, it's no longer worth watching. Fuck this show and fuck whoever worked on it that approved this garbage too.
They undid whatever "good" years it might have had with that last season. When you know what it's all building toward, it's no longer worth watching. Fuck this show and fuck whoever worked on it that approved this garbage too.
Honestly Jaime should have been the one to kill the Night King. It would have harkened back to Tyrion's words of how you take insults and wear them as a badge of honour, shit would have been fucking poetic.
Also yeah, the idea of neatly compartmentalising the major arcs in Season 8 was not a great idea, I enjoyed the season personally but I am frustrated as it could EASILY have been a fucking masterpiece but they dropped the ball. It doesn't mean that it has to be a happy ending and all that, but it has to be a satisfying one and Season 8's ending just felt like...yeah, it's done now.
Also yeah, the idea of neatly compartmentalising the major arcs in Season 8 was not a great idea, I enjoyed the season personally but I am frustrated as it could EASILY have been a fucking masterpiece but they dropped the ball. It doesn't mean that it has to be a happy ending and all that, but it has to be a satisfying one and Season 8's ending just felt like...yeah, it's done now.
I kind of felt like this from the beginning but seeing what transpired creating the character of the Night King was lazy and a mistake. I'm not a book purist or anything but the WWs is ASoIaF are more like the nebulous harbingers of the evil force that opposes the Lord of Light. Making this one King of the WWs who you defeat to destroy them all is just setting yourself up for what we got, an unsatisfying conclusion.
I honestly feel this show ended on a pretty satisfying and hopeful note, considering how much nihilism and downright disgusting events were displayed in the endings of just about every season prior. What did people who want the remake of S8 wanted, I honestly have no idea, but I was mostly surprised that the show didn't end on some complete downer situation.
In the show, Arya was pretty much built up to be a supernatural being after the transformation she went through. I know in the books it's not really supposed to be that way, but she was in the show. Also, a "kid" (children of the forest) created him, I though it was kind of neat that a kid killed him.