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Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
I mean someone basically saying that they're not gonna burn down the city at first but then doing it after they see their trusted adviser and BFF get decapitated, then another adviser plot against them basically leading her to lose her mind lowkey makes sense seeing as mindset can change over time.

That'd make sense if it happened in the heat of the moment (in last weeks ep when she saw what happened to Missandei), however this wasn't in a moment of passion, she had calmed down, she talked to Tyrion, she didn't seem to have "snapped" then, only after she won the battle for some reason she went bonkers, it just didn't feel right from a writing standpoint.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
So basically this is Jon Snow's fault? Whatever. People have been calling Dany mad queen for over a couple of seasons.

Sansa vindicated.
Sansa isnt vindicated at all. She never said anything about her being insane. She literally is just a racist who didn't like her because "I dont know her" and "shes not one of us"
 

Jadax

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,055
Ok so Dany is definitely going to die now (she has to right?) I kind of agree with this if it happens (she goes full mad-king) since in the books basically every inbred person in her family does at some stage - and also, she's a tyrannical teenager in the books and never the larger than life 'female leader' that she's become in the tv show.

I don't think Jon will sit on the Iron Throne anymore, since he's probably the one who will stop Dany.

I didn't want Varys to die, he seemed to be the most chaotic good person.

I didn't want Jamie to die for that crazy sister/gf of his, but I guess that closes out his long relationship. Still felt like what a meme for a character whose redemption path was probably one of the best things to come out of the last few seasons.

I will fucking lol if someone like Bran becomes king (which seems very likely tbh since he is the 3 eyed raven, thinks only of humanity etc etc).
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,400
I can imagine this being a really good episode...

... if this was the first episode of GoT you've ever seen.
I think most of these events could have been good (not Jaime though) if there was a proper full length season to let these characterizations develop. Watching Dany slowly turn into a mad queen could have been great. Instead, we just see her tick lol.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,530
So I still cannot grasp how stupid it was that Dany would just go full genocidal maniac after they had won and the city had surrendered.

That's just inexcusably bad writing. Even if you argue that "the signs of Dany's madness were there", that's still way, way too far of a line for her to cross. There's a reason why people find it unbelievable. Dany might have had a darkness brewing in her and all, but to have her turn into a complete cartoon villain, a "literal Hitler", for.... absolutely no reason?

You know what would have made Dany's nuking of King's Landing a bit more believable? A couple of random ideas that I can come up with without even thinking that hard:

- Have the attackers actually struggle a bit more and not have the surrender forthcoming, forcing her hand
- Have Dany approach the Red Keep and see Cersei, still having Missandei hostage, chuck her off the balcony as a last gesture of defiance, making her snap (still not great, I admit, but better than literally nothing)
- Better yet... have Rhaegal actually die in this episode during the battle, making her go apeshit in the heat of the moment (pun intended)
- Have her not burn the entire city, including areas full of civilians that are completely irrelevant to the result of the battle, but at least areas with soldiers, or have her focus on the Red Keep itself and its surrounding areas.

Any of those ideas would have made Dany's heel turn at least more palatable. Sure, you'd have people who'd bitch any way, but at least it'd be... defensible. This isn't. It's just shock for shock's value.

(And that's not even getting with the Jaime nonsense but hey, we saw that coming at least, they've character-assassinated him long ago)
 
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KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,211
Yep, and think of all she lost, trying to heed the advice to not be such a "monster". Im 100% on board with her having had enough of the bullshit as Cersei just chips away at all of Dany's resources. Enough with the bullshit.

The truly idiotic thing is that Tyrion's only offered alternative to attacking King's Landing like they did this episode was to starve the entire city in hopes of those starving peasants revolting against Cersei. That would have been more cruel and would have caused more deaths than this episode because if Dany snapped at the sight of the Red Keep, she would have done that anyway as the starvation plan dragged on.
 

Sweeney Swift

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,743
#IStandWithTaylor
We out here pretending it's all the same!

Season 1: saved mirri maz duur and lots of others from being raped
Season 2: killed psycho warlocks that wanted to imprison her for all time to do God knows what with their magic
Season 3: slavers, made sure to spare innocents
Season 4: hundreds slavers that crucified
innocent men, women and children slaves
Season 5: slavers
Season 6: slavers and rapists
Season 7: War and went over the top and burned war prisoners alive
Season 8: burns alive and kills hundreds of thousands of men, women and children after surrender and millions more will die in the aftermath, 2 episodes after she saves westeros and tens of millions of lives.

Guessing y'all kinda forgot too.

Quoting this again because it deserves more appreciation for being completely correct, especially about the selective memory from the fans/supporters of big boom action only
 

Rellyrell28

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
29,273
She's watched people she loves die before. The shift is just too dramatic.

Even if the change was as simple as "they didn't surrender, so Dany went overboard" would have been easier to swallow while still being justification for characters to call her mad.
I don't see it as dramatic at all it makes sense to me if it doesn't to you then oh well we just have different opinions on the matter. I'm not gonna change your mind and you're not gonna change mind.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
That's enough to justify the rule by fear motto, we're still missing the gap of how Dany suddenly decides she should burn the city to the ground block by block. And Benioff and Weiss's explanation is just, bad.

In the books the family has a crazy to them, but the show really only establishes Dany as a having dark dangerous authoritarianism streak to those that disobey, not an outright genocidal mindset toward all of those innocents she wishes to rule....a couple weeks after she just sacrificed her army and dragons to save them.
The difference is that Dany now knows that the cat is out of the bag about Jon being the true heir. The show of (genocidal) force is supposed to strike fear into anyone who wants to plot to overthrow her. Prior to Jon reveal, she was all about saving the land. That's the trigger. She always wanted the throne, no doubt about it.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
Putting traitors on trial and executing them quickly via beheading or hanging is drastically different from literally crucifying hundreds of people and displaying their bodies for a mile leading into the city.

And no, that's not me "caping for the slavers" or whatever, the slavers absolutely deserved punishment and execution for their deeds, but you can't tell me with a straight face that someone who orders them to be crucified, tortured and displayed like that is all right in the head lol
Jon was going to pummel Ramsay to death (literally going to cave his face into his skull with his bare fists) before letting Sansa take care of him her own way. No one batted an eye. Hell even Varys himself (Mr. "I serve the innocent people of the realm") had an implied moment of brutal revenge against the guy who cut off his nuts. No one on this show is 100% right in the head.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,031
So basically this is Jon Snow's fault? Whatever. People have been calling Dany mad queen for over a couple of seasons.

Sansa vindicated.
How is Sansa vindicated? Sansa's mouth is the thing that will eventually have her meet her end, even if we're not privy to it on the television screen. She got Varys killed because she betrayed Jon's trust. For all she's learned, she still has no clue how to use people to her advantage and earn their misplaced trust like Lord Baelish could.
 

SecondNature

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,200
So is Jon going to take the throne or what? Varys's last move was letting the secret out. But Jon doesnt want it, but he knows he has to take it. Dudes not done much the entire season, but is pretty much still the protagonist of the show.
 

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,819
Varys basically declaring in front of everyone "I'm gonna do a treason now" is such an efficient assassination of his character. Arya couldn't have done any better.
 

ThatCrazyGuy

Member
Nov 27, 2017
10,155
The direction of this episode was awesome. Everything looked really nice, nice shots. Great action.

Again the writing is way off, imo.

It's just about character motivations, what they have down and what makes them change. It's seems so ham fisted and rushed.

They fucked up Jaime. It doesn't make sense where his arc went.

Like him and Tyrion's last scene was great. Then him and Cersei was like, ok. It didn't feel complete or earned and indicative of what he went through and what she has done.

I don't mind dragon queen going mad, but how they did it, idk man. Doesn't feel like a natural progression. Just some soap opera shit.

Like, ok. I kinda felt maybe they were trying to make her and Cersei the same person. They would would do anything for their children, no matter the cost, good or evil.

2 of her children were killed (along with a close friend). Anything for her children.

It's so disappointing, there is some stuff I like, but so much shit.

These writers are not the greatest.
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
So I still cannot grasp how stupid it was that Dany would just go full genocidal maniac after they had won and the city had surrendered.

That's just inexcusably bad writing. Even if you argue that "the signs of Dany's madness were there", that's still way, way too far of a line for her to cross. There's a reason why people find it unbelievable. Dany might have had a darkness brewing in her and all, but to have her turn into a complete cartoon villain, a "literal Hitler", for.... absolutely no reason?

You know what would have made Dany's nuking of King's Landing a bit more believable? A couple of random ideas that I can come up with without even thinking that hard:

- Have the attackers actually struggle a bit more and not have the surrender forthcoming, forcing her hand
- Have Dany approach the Red Keep and see Cersei, still having Missandei hostage, chuck her off the balcony as a last gesture of defiance, making her snap (still not great, I admit, but better than literally nothing)
- Better yet... have Rhaegal actually die in this episode during the battle, making her go apeshit in the heat of the moment (pun intended)
- Have her not burn the entire city, including areas full of civilians that are completely irrelevant to the result of the battle, but at least areas with soldiers, or have her focus on the Red Keep itself and its surrounding areas.

Any of those ideas would have made Dany's heel turn at least more palatable. Sure, you'd have people who'd bitch any way, but at least it'd be... defensible. This isn't. It's just shock for shock's value.

Any of those would've made more sense and been in a more morally grey area than dragon-hitleretta.

The inside the episode only made things worse, too. Like it removed any doubt about D&D's thought process.
D&D talking about the Jon not fucking scene "Jon snow is someone she's fallen in love with and as far as she's concerned, by this point, she knows Jon has betrayed her by telling people about his true identity, and also the fact he's unable to return her affections at this point. I think that when she says, "let it be fear" she's resigning herself to the fact that she may have to get things done in a way that isn't pleasant and she may have to get things done in a way that is horrible to lots of people... (talk about brother) life if any of these things had happened in any different way, I don't think we'd be seeing this side of her."

I dunno, I'm pretty sure that's implying that Jon not fucking her was the final straw. Lol, crazy bitch needs to get laid, amirite?
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,259
God, there have been some mediocre episodes (mostly all this season), but this takes the cake. It has to be the first episode that I actually hate. It was the Michael Bay episode of Game of Thrones. It was spectacular to look at, but almost everything else was god awful, and almost all of the characters were more like caricatures. It's like they took two years to get every shot right, but only took two days for the script for the entire season. Just when you think they couldn't drag the show any farther into it's grave, it gets worse.

Fuck them.

So I still cannot grasp how stupid it was that Dany would just go full genocidal maniac after they had won and the city had surrendered.

This was by far the most egregious error out of many errors within this episode. I cannot fathom the logic behind the writing here.
 

Jadax

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,055
People who are jumping to Dany's defence seem to forget that there's a book series on which this tv show is (roughly) based. In the books she's not the savior, female role-model that she has become in the show.

Yes she can be kind in the books, and yes she wants what is good (in her view) - but she is shown to be tyrannical to anyone who gets in her way. On top of that, and something I think D&D realized will be hard to replicate, is that she is a teenager who went through a lot and is very fucked in the head.

She was never going to sit on the Iron Throne.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,932
She planned well. Gates closed, Golden Company, Ships in the sea with Ballistae, Walls of the outer castle covered in ballistae and archers. I mean, she did alright on top of her other moves like taking Highgarden and taking out a Dragon + not helping fight the dead so the enemy was diminished.... But at some point her hilariously masterful answers to everything needed to run out. When Dany arrived she had Cersei overpowered by a country mile. 3 Dragons, all the allies in the kingdoms armies working with her, unsullied and the horde and brilliant advisors. Honestly if somehow Cersei managed to overcome all that easily while smirking and sipping wine it would have been the most ridiculous thing ever.

Cersei did well, but the odds catch up to you at some point. No secret magic "plan" to stop them from just burning your whole keep to the ground, lol.



Yep, and think of all she lost, trying to heed the advice to not be such a "monster". Im 100% on board with her having had enough of the bullshit as Cersei just chips away at all of Dany's resources. Enough with the bullshit.

I'm not saying Cersei should've gotten away or won or anything, just that she usually has some unexpected move and here she just relied on other forces to do the battle and expected everything would work out.
 

Yasuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,819
Sansa isnt vindicated at all. She never said anything about her being insane. She literally is just a racist who didn't like her because "I dont know her" and "shes not one of us"

Sansa was shown to not like niggas, or she just didn't trust the woman who pulled up to her crib with 2 dragons and said "you serve me now"?

Which of these is it?
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
So I still cannot grasp how stupid it was that Dany would just go full genocidal maniac after they had won and the city had surrendered.

That's just inexcusably bad writing. Even if you argue that "the signs of Dany's madness were there", that's still way, way too far of a line for her to cross. There's a reason why people find it unbelievable. Dany might have had a darkness brewing in her and all, but to have her turn into a complete cartoon villain, a "literal Hitler", for.... absolutely no reason?

You know what would have made Dany's nuking of King's Landing a bit more believable? A couple of random ideas that I can come up with without even thinking that hard:

- Have the attackers actually struggle a bit more and not have the surrender forthcoming, forcing her hand
- Have Dany approach the Red Keep and see Cersei, still having Missandei hostage, chuck her off the balcony as a last gesture of defiance, making her snap (still not great, I admit, but better than literally nothing)
- Better yet... have Rhaegal actually die in this episode during the battle, making her go apeshit in the heat of the moment (pun intended)
- Have her not burn the entire city, including areas full of civilians that are completely irrelevant to the result of the battle, but at least areas with soldiers, or have her focus on the Red Keep itself and its surrounding areas.

Any of those ideas would have made Dany's heel turn at least more palatable. Sure, you'd have people who'd bitch any way, but at least it'd be... defensible. This isn't. It's just shock for shock's value.

Why would the people follow Dany, once they Know Aegon Targaryen exist? The only thing she has now is power. She may as well burn everything if she was to lose everything. It makes perfect sense.
GOT has always been for shock value. GRRM wrote GoT becase he wanted to write about sex, wars, complex politics, rape and other hard topics he knew couldnt be made on tv. Thats what GOT is all about.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,594
Varys basically declaring in front of everyone "I'm gonna do a treason now" is such an efficient assassination of his character. Arya couldn't have done any better.

Going up to Jon, the biggest Dany simp in the show now that Jorah is dead, and being like "what if we turned on her"

guy was a genius until the end
 

Saifu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,948
I would've loved to see the Mountain fight the Nights King 1 on 1.
It almost seemed like the Mountain was unkillable unless you chop his head off.
It's really a missed opportunity for the white walkers to storm King's Landing instead.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
Hell even Varys himself (Mr. "I serve the innocent people of the realm") had an implied moment of brutal revenge against the guy who cut off his nuts. No one on this show is 100 right in the head.
Wanting brutal revenge against the guy who cut off your nuts is in no way a sign that you're not 100 in the head lol.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
How is Sansa vindicated? Sansa's mouth is the thing that will eventually have her meet her end, even if we're not privy to it on the television screen. She got Varys killed because she betrayed Jon's trust. For all she's learned, she still has no clue how to use people to her advantage and earn their misplaced trust like Lord Baelish could.
You're not seeing the bigger picture. She let out the secret to others because she rightly felt Dany is not fit to be queen. And she is proven right. If we had Sansa's way of Jon Snow being the king, all the carnage could have been avoided. She has a big fat "i told you so" moment waiting for Jon.
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,031
Agreed. You could argue he was too good of a check. If he let her burn down the iron fleet and the Lannister army day one, hundreds of thousands are saved.
Agreed. He's a fascinating character for a multitude of reasons and I feel for him. Despite one's best intentions...

It will be interesting to see how his story ends in the final episode. We've become used to nothing working out for him throughout the series so I'm expecting a heel turn there. Tyrion being the last Lannister standing is poetic justice, in a sense.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,612
(like I just don't get why they didn't embrace the internal unrest and political intrigue subplot to better establish Dany's growing disdain for the people of Westeros and a sense of being forced to rule by fear).
I realllllly wish they would have gone this route. Have her accept the role of the feared ruler since that what Westerosies want her to be so badly. This could have been communicated across several episodes with great character interactions and behind the scenes plotting.

Who ever brought up Berserk was so on point. She's basically Griffith but with worse motivation and buildup to the moment of truth.
Is it going to be the exact same thing for the exact same reason? Dorne is 100% different from the books for example. So maybe Martin told them Dany's dragons burn Kl, and they came up with their own reasoning as to why she'd burn the city down after getting their surrender. She won, and then she torched the place. Not while attempting to win, but after securing it. That's the dumbest shit I've seen in awhile.

I don't disagree it was really dumb but I still have a feeling Martin will have her do something just as vile.


So basically this is Jon Snow's fault? Whatever. People have been calling Dany mad queen for over a couple of seasons.

Sansa vindicated.

Glad to see there's still some #TeamSansa's out there.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,601
Did anyone do anything that mattered outside of Dany and her dragon? Cersei, Jaime, and Clegane Bowl didn't matter - they would have all died in a collapsing keep or by enemy troops anyways. Arya is almost comical, she rides like three thousand miles to within a few feet of her destination and then turns around and nope's out, finding a nice horse along the way. Tyrion is constantly betraying everyone, but the results don't matter at all.

Jon saved one woman from being raped, who probably was set on fire a minute later anyways. Other than that he just kinda stood around staring at everything and attacking anyone who swung a sword at him.

Too bad Gregor didn't say "brother" at the very end, I half expected it. Wouldn't make any sense, but par for the course for this season.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Wait what? How is Sansa not trusting Dany "racist"?
I attribute it to the same reason why the northerners keep giving the stink eye to Meesandai and Greyworm in addition to literally saying about Dany "shes not one of us". Never did Sansa say anything about her being insane. It was merely "I dont know her, shes not like us".
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
She has been threatening to burn people alive or burning people alive since season 2. Anytime she faces any kind of adversity, she threatens to set people on fire.

Yeah, individuals. And that's why she was threatening to blow up the Red Keep for so long. But instead after already winning she suddenly decides to erase King's Landing from the map? Did she go from wanting to save people from tyranny, to a homicidal maniac, in that span of a few seconds while the bells were ringing? It would have been nice to see that.

The real reason Dany turned crazy all of a sudden is because they needed a spectacular villain and fiery explosions for the striking (and often well done scenes, as far as direction), but it's just not earned and it doesn't make any sense.
 

Chris McQueen

Self-requested ban
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,378
London
A stairwell fight? We waited for a motherfucking stairwell fight scene?...

giphy.gif
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
Wait what? How is Sansa not trusting Dany "racist"?
That's the same guy who was trying to imply D&D were racist because Unsullied and Dothraki were killing civilians this episode lol while conveniently ignoring that Northerners were doing it too

He's just gonna ignore anything that invalidates his argument and keep calling random things racist
 

Bitanator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,076
I liked it, show is all spectacle now and it was not a boring episode, the exchanges from Arya/Hound & Tyrion/Jamie were really good.

What a silly spectacle this show has become though
 
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