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Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
why would a three-eyed raven go beyond the wall if that is the case, lol

Cause it's where the children of the forest are and the central tree hard drive so he can connect to it and look at the past and always fail at communicating anything with anyone and not being spoken of by anyone in all of history like he didn't exist, not even among the wildlings who live around there.

Errrr.....
 
Oct 28, 2017
74
I had such a good time watching the previous episodes this season but this one felt almost amateurish. It's funny as hell how all the main characters just kept getting away while some B-characters and extras died in the background. When the indoors action started and the characters just met up in a room i almost completely checked out, feels like all of that shit could've easily been cut from the episode, the episode really didn't need those scenes.

The tension building at the start was so well done and the scene of the flames from the riders slowly going out was cool as hell (yeah its silly that they just charge right into the zombie army but whatever)
 

Burt

Fight Sephiroth or end video games
Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,251
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-wi...e-of-thrones-books-end-60-minutes-2019-04-15/

April 15th interview with George:

"I don't think Dan and Dave's ending is going to be that different from my ending," says author George R.R. Martin about the HBO series moving beyond his books
I'm more confident than ever that it will be. Maybe not the specific ending, as in "who sits on the Throne with who", but the path there is going to be radically different, unless GRRM decides to phone it all in and disregard Azor Ahai, fAegon, Oldtown, the Greyjoys, an actual war with the White Walkers (when we don't even know if there's a Night King in the books), and so on and so forth, and that's without even bringing in the characters that are dramatically different (Jaime, Arya) or still alive (Mance, Catelyn, Nymeria, even Barristan f'ing Selmy). We haven't even crossed Battle of the Bastards yet, and I find it very hard to believe that the books are being written without any regard to the show, even (especially) in a quasi-spiteful "no, this is how you do it right" sense.

Honestly, it's a relief to get confirmation that I finally have my show expectations properly calibrated and I can just enjoy an episode like this one for what it is.
 
Jun 12, 2018
633
Seeing all this hate for Arya stabbing the NK makes me wish ERA was around back in the day so I could see how much you guys woulda complained about Eowyn killing the Witch King in Return of the King lol
 

VaporSnake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,603
I'm so glad I can just enjoy things, and I'm not some wannabe armchair military commander, or pretending I'm a D&D-caliber writer. Sometimes it feels good to just enjoy what I'm watching and not nickpick every little thing. Y'all should try it sometime.
You don't have to be an 'armchair military commander' to know that suiciding your entire calvary for no reason is fucking stupid.
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
Its absolutely ridiculous to criticize story telling that robs the main character from overcoming their singular conflict thats been set up for 8 seasons? Ok. How would you feel if Chewie killed vader in return of the jedi while luke just killed a couple storm troopers on the sideline? Or if Morpheus killed agent smith at the end of the matrix while Neo ran away? Or any other countless hypotheticals where the main character doesn't actually over come the major conflict the narrative has set up for them? It would be laughable and entirely ruin their arc and major storyline. Just like it did there.

I don't care about prophecy. I care about good story telling. And when you spend 8 seasons building up this one character's major conflict and then strip him of doing anything during it to overcome it, you have failed at giving that character a proper conclusion to their central story. You can be as insulting as you like, the only thing childish is not realizing how completely anticlimatic this ending was to the whole night king ordeal and thinking others taking issue with it is ridiculous.
I'm sorry man, I don't know what else to tell you. I loved the ending and I loved the way arya did it. I'll grant some people the argument that the show did too many cutaways as it seemed like some characters almost died, but other than that it was sublime to watch all of this play out. I predicted that more people would survive than they would die... I'm happy my prediction came true. Arya killing the NK in the fashion that she did was just an incredible feeling... it reminded me of how I felt at the end of Wind Waker, something I haven't felt in a long long time.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
54,034
My hope is that when they're cleaning up WF, that Bronn will show up and instead of trying to kill them will reveal her plan. I'll be sad if he tries to kill either one.

If Bronn kills Jaime or Tyrion then it would be the one of the biggest heel turns I have ever seen. Bronn is beloved by the fans, but so is Jaime and Tyrion. If he kills either for money then fans will roast him alive.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,939
Ok so, regarding the fire discussion I think we can put this criticism to rest.

We have a precedent for the white walkers putting out normal fire via proximity in Hardhome:
APiFA5b.gif


A precedent for implied magical fire as they walk through a barrier made by the children of the forest and aren't affected by literal magic fire grenades:
QGMgoR8.gif

aGAoR5W.gif





we actually have a precedent for the Night King even putting out dragon fire by proximity.
UQ26K30.gif



That wasn't an asspull on the part of the show or a hint about their lineage. They built that moment up throughout the years via the small glimpses. As cathartic as it would be for the NK to die via dragonfire. As shown above we were given at least four different hints that it wouldn't be that simple.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,820
New York
Standard Military planning would've seen The Unsullied push out to meet the Dead at a midpoint in the battle, with the Trebs behind the rear lines, and the Dothraki waiting in the wings to sweep the mid or rear of the dead once the two fronts were engaged. The reason this didn't happen wasn't because they decided to use the Dothraki as Vanguard and Jon/Dany as Cavalry. The reason it didn't happen is because, for whatever reason, the show just doesn't put much into actual medieval tactics.

Remember that Jon and Dany were never supposed to enter the main battle at all. They were supposed to gank NK when he revealed himself. So if Dany doesn't freak out and join the battle forcing Jon to support her, Then the Dothraki just run out and die with the Unsullied holding a severely pushed back line that's set up behind their own Trebs for some reason. It was incredbly tactically unsound and not at all suited for an advance.
The show is flat out idiotic. Artillery in front of infantry is the only thing you need to know.
 

carlsojo

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 28, 2017
34,322
San Francisco
What?

How?

Jon, Dany, Jorah, Tormund, the Hound, Gendry, Sam, Edd and Beric all have first-hand experience with the Wights and their numbers and most of the other characters have at least some experience with a Wight. Hardhome had them behaving like the exact same 'tidal wave' that they were at Winterfell, and the same thing happened again with the excursion beyond the wall. There was literally no reason to believe that the 'fearless army of the dead' would suddenly start acting like a fearful army of the living.

There's also the fact that Bran literally has the power to get a birds-eye view of the battlefield. Why the hell would you send hundreds of your men to scout the battlefield out when you have someone like that to help?

Also my issue isn't that the Dothraki charged, it's that they charged in the most meaningless and idiotic way imaginable. Trying to reduce them to human versions of Bullet Bills from Super Mario is a really bad excuse.



That person implied that Dany's contact with the Dothraki had reduced her tactics to "just rush 'em lol". No matter her tactical ability that just doesn't make any sense and it's a really weird way to look at it in my eyes.

They've all seen the wights, yes, but the wights at hardhome didn't form a wall. They just attacked head on. They didn't think that the undead army would be "fearful", just that the Dothraki should at least be able to hold their own against a bunch of wights on foot.
 

ZiggyPalffyLA

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
4,504
Los Angeles, California
It is remarkable how shallow the critiques actually are.

I think it reveals a lot about the type of people who are complaining; they watch shows LOOKING for the negatives. While normal people watch shows DESPITE the negatives and can appreciate the spectacle. The reddit/Era nerd is someone you'd never really interact with in real life...nobody at a viewing party with friends is going to say "the battle strategies were all wrong!" or "how did Arya get to the Night King?" They're just going to be fucking entertained like hell, like I was last night, while the sad internet nerds just force more misery into their already miserable lives.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
I think it's implied TER is the last of what remains of good magic in Westeros. The Children are gone. He's all that's left to pass on the magic of the old gods. So while it might not have meant anything to the rank and file if he died, it would have meant that all of that old history we keep hearing about (at least in the books) would have been extinguished had he died.

The show doesn't carry any of this at all though.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,756
We have no idea how Valyrian steel is made. Only guesses and theories from the fans based on the books. Its why there has never been any new Valyrian steel made since The Doom.




When Dany saved Jon from the Night King the first time around she blanketed the entire battlefield in dragonfire. We watched the Night King get handed his spear and walk towards through a strip of flaming ground. The fire has a reaction to his presence and its diminishes as he approaches it and steps through it. The Wight Jon kills at Hardhome also does the same thing, but with regular fire.

Skip to 1:37 and watch his feet.



Skip to 7:20 and watch how the Wight affects the fire around him





Its not concrete I know. I just always took that to mean they had some kind of resistance or immunity to fire. Bran saying "Nobody has ever tried it" made me even more sure that it was the case. Because if I wanted to write a badass shocking scene in the battle I would have done exactly what they did in the episode. Have the Night King drowned in dragonfire and walk out unscathed in order to show his power and make the fight seem even more perilous.




Also the half ring of fire that the children lit to protect the TER in the cave.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,124
Another big question I have is that if Arya was always destined to kill TNK and Melisandre knew this, what was the point of bringing Jon back...? To rally the troops to fight the WWs? To take the throne?
Easy. the Lord of Light is a troll and wanted to even the odds and grant the NK a dragon. Without Jon and his dumbass plans(plus Tyrion of course), we don't get the trip beyond the wall. Lord of Light is Thanos lol.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Which are all fair criticism, but yes it does read like everyone set themselves up for another Red Wedding-esque shock that never came.
I see what you're saying, but there's nothing satisfying about plot armor. Jaime should have already died last season. Sansa, Tyrion, Varys, Sam, Gilly, etc. should not have made it out alive relatively unscathed when everyone round them who know how to fight are getting slaughtered. There's nothing satisfying about watching people defy death out of convenience for the audience. The same can be said with pretty much anyone that actually died this episode. Beric, Edd, Jorah, etc. these are characters that were way passed their expiration date anyway.
 

Dokkaebi G0SU

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,922
they both appear in the preview for the next episode... and they're flying so I guess they're alright. Ghost is alive too.

okay awesome. man, what a great episode. having flashbacks right now and i know my emotions were in a rollercoaster!
that flame lighting or blood red to give the theme of hell for them was amazing too. all the bodies, them fighting for their lives, never ending death just coming at them. ooo wee.
 

Waffles

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,793
We have no idea how Valyrian steel is made. Only guesses and theories from the fans based on the books. Its why there has never been any new Valyrian steel made since The Doom.




When Dany saved Jon from the Night King the first time around she blanketed the entire battlefield in dragonfire. We watched the Night King get handed his spear and walk towards through a strip of flaming ground. The fire has a reaction to his presence and its diminishes as he approaches it and steps through it. The Wight Jon kills at Hardhome also does the same thing, but with regular fire.

Skip to 1:37 and watch his feet.



Skip to 7:20 and watch how the Wight affects the fire around him





Its not concrete I know. I just always took that to mean they had some kind of resistance or immunity to fire. Bran saying "Nobody has ever tried it" made me even more sure that it was the case. Because if I wanted to write a badass shocking scene in the battle I would have done exactly what they did in the episode. Have the Night King drowned in dragonfire and walk out unscathed in order to show his power and make the fight seem even more perilous.


I forgot about the fire in Beyond the Wall. I recalled them being resistant to regular fire - it happens in The Door I believe. But I always thought that dragonfire was a bit different in this world. I'm fine with them being resistant to it, but to me I guess it all comes back to just not having a better understanding of what they really are and their purpose. If its just because they are super cold, then so be it. But I wish at least some aspect of them was addressed in the last 7 seasons better than it was, because to me, there should be a difference between walking through fire and being absolutely roasted by a dragon.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,198
A huge misconception for action films/shows/scenes is that you're supposed to tell the story in between all the action, and let the action be the spectacle in between. On the contrary, action scenes are when the most dramatic and truthful character moments can happen - because we're watching characters make choices, instead of just listening to them talk. It's true character and it's exciting stuff.

This episode had.... no character moments. In fact, its characters barely even did anything to propel narrative at all, besides, obviously, Arya's final stab. It was just reacting. We're being attacked. Fight back. I know nothing more about these people after this event is over. Dany and Jon's relationship didn't fester or smolder. I don't even know why they ended the previous episode with Jon telling Dany the truth if they weren't going to utilize the tension of that during the battle.

I don't find any of these characters particularly interesting at this point and I don't think they've done much substantial setup for many of them leading into this battle so I'm not doing a good job at finding other examples, but what interesting choices could Brienne have made here to reveal character? Like would she choose to save Winterfell over Jaime? Maybe that could have been revelatory for their relationship. Or Tyrion? He seemed like he was struggling with the tension of doing what his Queen demanded of him vs what he thought would actually win them the battle but it didn't eventuate into anything. He just sort of ran and hid behind a wall. I suppose we got his fondness for Sansa in here.

The notion that killing The Night King destroys the entire army is such hamfisted lazy convenient storytelling. Why were we all so worried about these guys? Why did we need to cook up the largest army in the seven kingdoms for this? You need one good shot at the guy and it's lights out. And likewise, given, presumably, the white walkers are aware of this, this could have been baked into the goals/motivations for the characters in the episode. Like The Night King would be relentlessly defended by the rest of the army to the point that if anyone gets close, a bajillion wights would immediately jump in the way. Anything less just makes them look remarkably incompetent. And maybe then the good guys are like "Look they're all defending him so hard. I think he's the key. We've got to put all our manpower into taking him down" and then maybe the story would ebb and flow a little bit more.

Instead it was the same tired predictable safe blandly executed GoT we've had for the past four seasons now.

EDIT: And yeah we couldn't see shit on our end. Admittedly we were watching on a pretty old plasma that's not well calibrated but nothing I've ever watched on it has been that relentlessly dark to the point where I constantly struggled to make out what the fuck was going on. Likewise the bitrate turned the footage into a blurry mess shockingly often. It's something I hadn't thought about before, but given this is television and not a film - the latter which will be screened on (presumably) professionally calibrated screens in a dark room, it's kind of irresponsible to grade it so dark.
I find it hilarious that soo many people are pissed about this when they have literally told us this for a few seasons now. Jon even said so in the battle meeting the episode before. He also killed some other White Walker higher ups in seasons past, and it killed the grunts that general dude was tide too. I'm not understanding why people thought it would be different. It was the only way they could even win. The only alternative was they loose and all become white walkers, if that's what you wanted you really where kidding yourself. It is an incredible weakness, but it was either they had it or not, and if they didn't they would have never lost. Its like some people really wanted the humans to lose. I'm sure the NK knew this but maybe he "HAD" to be the one to kill Bran. Complainly about it being predictable??? There was only 2 ways it could have went. They lose everyone becomes WW, and then they kill Cersei which they would 100%, or the WW lose and now its human vs human which is way less predictable.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,820
New York
Cersei should win now by rights. Her plan was to hold back her army, let Jon deal with the zombies and then swoop in afterwards and clean up the leftovers. The audience has been led to believe that this was short-sighted and greedy, that only an alliance could defeat the Night King, etc. But wouldn't you know, she turned out to be exactly right.
Turns out she was the smart Lannister after all.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
Well certainly part of the plan for the show is for just about everyone to die in this battle so things aren't going to go as planned and they did not here. They did have a plan. Things definitely did not go according to plan. It's not like the Dothraki went out on their own against orders. They just got bodied.

Which really furthers my point, yes. Their plan did not foresee *overwhelming forces*. Figuratively and literally. Her reaction was because their plan (yes, they had a military plan) was falling apart.

It was an unsound plan. I have *never* argued that it was a *good plan*. I'm saying it was *a plan*, that there were units with roles. They were literally organized into brigades and divisions in order to make it clear to the audience that they were observing military organization and planning.

They grossly underestimated their enemy because Jon and the others drew up a plan based on what they had seen of them in skermishes to date.

I 100% agree that they should have had the dragons light up the tree line and if they had a do-over they probably would. They didn't think it was necessary and probably felt it might give away their trump cards or something. IDK and I can't recall if it was mentioned when they were doing their planing. Either way, ultimately the directors wanted something more tense and dramatic. It's fine for me. YMMV however.

My point was that sending mounted units charging head first into a solid line doesn't make them Vanguard. They're Cavalry and they were equipped and operated as such.

For me, it was a slight annoyance, but no more so than when someone in a horror film decides to go check out that noise in the other room by themselves. It's clear that the intent was to instill fear in both the living characters and the viewers and I can accept that. But I also feel it's fine to critique the show (not the characters) for setting up that scene to be so obviously terrible tactically.
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
Yeah it's a good watch, and definitely shows they've thought about it more than what some here are implying with "lazy" writing and them being "frauds."

Of course they have. The people using those words to describe DnD probably mindlessly scream about the books being "better" and "GRRM save us" without actually understanding any of it lol

Like GRRM could end things in the exact same way and you could predict who in this thread would suddenly love it
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
It makes perfect sense that assassination would be the way to end the Night King.
It makes perfect sense that Arya would perform the assassination.

I think they utterly failed in the direction of those scenes though.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
I'm sorry man, I don't know what else to tell you. I loved the ending and I loved the way arya did it. I'll grant some people the argument that the show did too many cutaways as it seemed like some characters almost died, but other than that it was sublime to watch all of this play out. I predicted that more people would survive than they would die... I'm happy my prediction came true. Arya killing the NK in the fashion that she did was just an incredible feeling... it reminded me of how I felt at the end of Wind Waker, something I haven't felt in a long long time.
Ok but none of this addresses anything I said and essentially amounts to "I liked it because it was cool" which says nothing about why it was narratively earned or why it was more emotionally impact than if Jon or someone more invested in the WW conflict had done this. But thats more or less what i expect from people who enjoyed that scene, because at this point GoT is just pretty spectacle that people clap their hands at because its cool, not because its emotionally engaging or well written content.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
i won't lie. Left abit disappointed.

Alot of shoddy editing, too many shaky cam, too many lingering scene to build suspense (with little payoff) and some headscratching moment like why did Bran warged to a bunch of ravens for nothing?

Compared to Hardhome, it's quite a downgrade in tension.
 

ZiggyPalffyLA

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
4,504
Los Angeles, California
I forgot about the fire in Beyond the Wall. I recalled them being resistant to regular fire - it happens in The Door I believe. But I always thought that dragonfire was a bit different in this world. I'm fine with them being resistant to it, but to me I guess it all comes back to just not having a better understanding of what they really are and their purpose. If its just because they are super cold, then so be it. But I wish at least some aspect of them was addressed in the last 7 seasons better than it was.

It's been addressed satisfactorily several times. It's your own fault for not paying attention.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
wait, does she still have both of her dragons? i remember one coming back to comfort her when jorah died.
I don't know. Was the dragon that came to comfort her at the end the dragon that was getting stabbed up? Or jon's dragon that crash landed after getting scratched up by the NK's dragon? Either way, they never show the fate of the other dragon. I don't remember if they show 2 dragons flying in the "Next Episode" reel.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,244
I think it reveals a lot about the type of people who are complaining; they watch shows LOOKING for the negatives. While normal people watch shows DESPITE the negatives and can appreciate the spectacle. The reddit/Era nerd is someone you'd never really interact with in real life...nobody at a viewing party with friends is going to say "the battle strategies were all wrong!" or "how did Arya get to the Night King?" They're just going to be fucking entertained like hell, like I was last night, while the sad internet nerds just force more misery into their already miserable lives.
Talk about shallow critiques.
 

Deleted member 9100

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,076
That episode was awful. What a terrible end to the night king and his army.

On top of that, the direction of the episode was awful. There were so many blurry battle shots that made it very difficult to see what was happening. Such a let down compared to the direction of the other big battle scenes in past seasons.

I think it reveals a lot about the type of people who are complaining; they watch shows LOOKING for the negatives. While normal people watch shows DESPITE the negatives and can appreciate the spectacle. The reddit/Era nerd is someone you'd never really interact with in real life...nobody at a viewing party with friends is going to say "the battle strategies were all wrong!" or "how did Arya get to the Night King?" They're just going to be fucking entertained like hell, like I was last night, while the sad internet nerds just force more misery into their already miserable lives.

So either you enjoyed the episode or you're a sad internet nerd trying to force more misery into their already miserable lives?

I loved episode 2 of this season, and went into this episode very excited. As a huge fan of this show and the storylines of the show, this episode was a complete letdown.
 

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
Literally replace white walkers or night king with any type of character in any show and see how silly of an argument this is. Knowing the motivations and characters of threats our protagonists face is an incredibly important part of building real drama we care about rather than just eye candy spectacle.

The whole point of the undead army as a narrative force is that theyre a single logic driven by supernatural means: "Destroy all men". They shouldnt exist but they do, and that's why theyre scary. They were created as a defense mechanism which grew out of hand. Theyre allegorical by nature since they operate as a myth with tangibility. This is where you get the undead in GoT as a metaphorical intepretation for climate change from. They dont work (within the confines of the narrative) as a force driven by internal desire or any other reason we're otherwise given for understanding why the living pursue their goals.

The reason theyre as effective as they are as a narrative threat is because theyre a direct foil with with the rules that rest of the story operates under under. They dont have political goals or personal agendas. They dont scheme or plot for power. They dont hate (at least in a sense that matters to us as rational people) or hold contempt, they simply do what they were made to do, and in a narrative that relies so heavily on character motivation and ever-evolving complexities from its characters, that is the scariest force imaginable.

Having the NK even give a tiny smirk felt really out of place to me. It didnt ruin the episode or the character, but it felt like bad writing to me. Another case of sacrificing narrative for a quick crowd pleaser moment.
 

Lunatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,864
I like to imagine that Jon is sitting there wondering how TF he killed an undead dragon by screaming at it.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
It makes perfect sense that assassination would be the way to end the Night King.
It makes perfect sense that Arya would perform the assassination.

I think they utterly failed in the direction of those scenes though.
it failed because there was 8 seasons of build up and she killed him on her first try, in the first episode she sees him. the episode self-contained is very good, but as resolution to this plot thread that sustained 8 seasons... it's pretty anti-climactic. And btw this was Jon's story-- this is the only thing he's cared about since like season 3, he was killed and brought back to life for this fight... and he didn't even kill the night king, someone else did it.
 

galvenize

Member
Oct 25, 2017
642
Shook my head multiple times this episode. More than I did the whole of last season.

Jon was utterly useless the whole time.
 

Mudcrab

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
3,443
Cool! How many medieval battles have you commanded/fought in?

Or do you just watch Military Channel and like to pretend-cosplay as a soldier?

lmao why are you so aggressive? It doesn't take a military mastermind to understand that all of the show's 'tactics' were done for the rule of cool not because it made any real sense.
 
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