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Gal Gadot starring in "Cleopatra", Patty Jenkins directing

dude

dude

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Oct 25, 2017
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Matt said:
As much as Gadot is Greek. He looked the part of an ancient Iranian, as they were pretty "white."

The point is once you start trying to account for cultural migrations over the centuries you've already missed the point. Having Egyptian, Greek, or Iranian actors portraying important roles from their nations' histories is about more than getting a skin pigment "correct," it's about using these opportunities to make sure those underserved communities are represented in front of the camera.
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I mean, this far back in history - I find it hard to say Cleopatra as a figure that has anything to do with the modern Greek or Egyptian nations or cultural groups. I agree that when possible, we should use these roles (like any roles) to give opportunities to actors who don't usually get them - In that regard, the casting is problematic, as Iranians and Muslims in general do not usually get cast the lead roles.
But for Cleopatra - I don't think Greeks are very underrepresented compared to Israeli Ashkenazi Jews? or that there's even any power dynamics between the two groups that would make this decision problematic in that regard...
 
Kin5290

Kin5290

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Oct 26, 2017
3,403
Matt said:
So the imperialist oppressors didn't view themselves as imperialist oppressors?

Well that clears things up, boy is my face red.
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It's almost as if viewing everything through the 21st century lens of postcolonialism is a mistake.

Cleopatra was the last scion of a line of Macedonian Greeks founded by the general of the Macedonian ruler who seized the land from from the then dominant imperial power of the world, the Achaemenid Persians.
 
Rassilon

Rassilon

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Somehow Cleopatra will be involved in extended super human fight sequences that involve roof-top chases and bullet-time arrow dodging.
 
dude

dude

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Matt said:
So the imperialist oppressors didn't view themselves as imperialist oppressors?

Well that clears things up, boy is my face red.
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Wow, an Empire was being imperialist over another empire?
Let's not reduce anti-imperialist struggles by trying to dress up the ancient world in these terms, maybe?
 
JonnyDBrit

JonnyDBrit

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dude said:
I mean, this far back in history - I find it hard to say Cleopatra as a figure that has anything to do with the modern Greek or Egyptian nations or cultural groups. I agree that when possible, we should use these roles (like any roles) to give opportunities to actors who don't usually get them - In that regard, the casting is problematic, as Iranians and Muslims in general do not usually get cast the lead roles.
But for Cleopatra - I don't think Greeks are very underrepresented compared to Israeli Ashkenazi Jews? or that there's even any power dynamics between the two groups that would make this decision problematic in that regard...
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I mean, greeks playing greek figures in major western media isn't exactly common, because of their sheer ubiquity among wider western culture meaning it's never considered in those terms. It would be kinda neat to see, though in that lens, having Gadot in this role isn't the most egregious thing because yeah, the dynamic isn't that majorly or actively skewed, as it becomes when considered relative to potential Egyptian offerings. Indeed, it's kind of indicative of the fact Cleopatra as a person didn't neatly align to modern understandings of the nations and cultures potentially concerned
 
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

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dude said:
It's North Macedonia now, and I don't quite get what there is to imagine about it? North Macedonian are slavs and have very little relation (if at all) to the Cleopatra or the older Hellenistic people of the region.
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It would be controversial, the debate about what is "Macedonia" would be revived since Cleopatra is a descendant of the same ethnicity as Alexander the Great
 
tekomandor

tekomandor

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Oct 27, 2017
538
ReturnOfThaMack88 said:
So I came here to bitch about a white Israeli woman portraying an Arab/African Cleopatra. Then y'all educated my ignorant ass about Cleopatra being Greek. I had no idea.

That said, fuck Gal Gadot for supporting Israeli bombings of Palestinian civilians. Hope the movie bombs (pun intended).
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The Arab conquest of Egypt wasn't for six hundred years after Cleopatra's death, for example. But yeah, Gadot sucks for other reasons entirely unrelated to race.
 
ZackieChan

ZackieChan

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jett said:
When it comes to these old-timey historical epics, being some kind of white is all it takes. Brad Pitt not being Greek didn't stop him from playing Achilles, and let's not forget Maximus is supposed to be a Spaniard in Gladiator lol.
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The GOAT
 
Unknown Unknown

Unknown Unknown

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Edmond Dantès said:
Frankly, I'd even accept an adaptation of some pulpy historical fiction like River God from Wilbur Smith.

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To go along with Ancient Egypt that story or something about Hatshepsut as someone else suggested.
To keep with the Romans I'd like an adaptatin of a story from the other side of the empire, The Eagle and The Raven by Pauline Gedge. More suited for a series than a movie though.
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Winny（๑•̀ㅂ•́）و said:
Yeah but will Cleopatra have a really heavy Irish accent? 'cause if she doesn't that's a huge deal breaker for me. Alexander taught me all Greek folks back then had that really thick Irish accent.
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Only if it's written that way . Now that you mention it, I kind of want to hear Gal try and pull off an Irish accent. Any accent but her natural one really.
 
gdt

gdt

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Oct 26, 2017
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Secretofmateria said:
i didnt know cleopatra was greek. I made an ignorant statement. Im sorry. I assumed she was egyptian.
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I mean she was Egyptian. She was born there and lived there her whole life. "Egyptian" then is somewhat like "American" now. Within reason of course

But it's accurate to say she wasn't ethnically Egyptian
 
A Syrian Communist

A Syrian Communist

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It would be pretty cool if actors from the Egyptian diaspora could maybe take part in the portrayal of one of the most important figures in their cultural history, regardless of what that person's ethnicity was. There's a reason why Cleopatra herself is more associated with Ancient Egypt than Greece, and forgoing giving the role to someone from either of those backgrounds to instead give it to a proud Israeli is as Hollywood as it gets.
 
Cat Party

Cat Party

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I didn't know Cleopatra was a Macedonian Greek until pretty recently (thanks Dan Carlin), so I'm not going to judge anyone who doesn't know that yet.
 
Faenix1

Faenix1

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I'm not gonna give her shit for seemingly coming up with an idea and wanting to play it.

With Jenkins involved itll probably be decent.
 
Joni

Joni

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DiipuSurotu said:
An Egyptian actor would still make more sense than Israeli to be honest. At least with Egyptian there would still be some geographical connection. Israeli is completely random.
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By current borders, it doesn't make sense, but for a while, Israel was part of the Ptolemaic Kingdom of Egypt. Although yeah, by the time of Cleopatra, they lost a lot of borders. Alexander's empire was this.

Ptolemaic-Empire-300BC.png
 
dude

dude

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Oct 25, 2017
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DiipuSurotu said:
An Egyptian actor would still make more sense than Israeli to be honest. At least with Egyptian there would still be some geographical connection. Israeli is completely random.
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Israeli is a nationality, not an ethnicity. I mean, why would a Palestinian Israeli or Mizrahi Israeli be random?
I'd even argue an Ashkenazi Jew is not all that random. TBH, I think any middle-eastern is going to work with Cleopatra.
 
Lion

Lion

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It would have been nice if they had tried to cast an actress who is actually Greek. I don't think gadot is a great actress either.
 
Caz

Caz

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Rassilon said:
Somehow Cleopatra will be involved in extended super human fight sequences that involve roof-top chases and bullet-time arrow dodging.
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So...about on par with HBO's Rome in terms of accuracy.

Seriously, people need to take off the rose-tinted glasses and re-watch Season 2 because its depiction of Cleopatra makes her look far more stupid than she actually was. Which is to say that Cleopatra was not an idiot.
 
Ramako

Ramako

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DiipuSurotu said:
Wasn't the "Black Egyptians" theory debunked years ago?
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There were some black Egyptians and even black Pharaohs, but that was more so due to conquest; i.e. Egypt conquering its southern neighbour Kush (aka Nubia) and vice-versa. If you're just talking about the people living in ancient Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt, they more or less looked like modern Egyptians, though it's worth keeping in mind that since the Muslim conquest of Egypt by the Arabs in the 7th century, Egyptians have become increasingly ethnically and culturally Arab.

The closest modern approximation to ancient Egyptians might be the Coptic people (like me!), who are Egypt's minority Christian population. The Copts avoided intermarrying with the incoming Arab Muslim population, so are more closely related ethnically to the native Egyptian population that adopted Christianity in the first century AD. Interestingly the Coptic language, although dead now, is essentially ancient Egyptian transcribed using Greek script, because Greek was the main scholarly language following the end of Egypt's Ptolemaic period.
 
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Jag

Jag

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Oct 26, 2017
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Caz said:
So...about on par with HBO's Rome in terms of accuracy.

Seriously, people need to take off the rose-tinted glasses and re-watch Season 2 because its depiction of Cleopatra makes her look far more stupid than she actually was. Which is to say that Cleopatra was not an idiot.
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I wasn't a huge fan of her in Rome, but man did I love that show.
 
Morrigan

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Oct 24, 2017
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Caz said:
So...about on par with HBO's Rome in terms of accuracy.

Seriously, people need to take off the rose-tinted glasses and re-watch Season 2 because its depiction of Cleopatra makes her look far more stupid than she actually was. Which is to say that Cleopatra was not an idiot.
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Agreed, I remember not liking her portrayal much (despite liking the show quite a lot), at least when she was introduced. Cleopatra was supposed to be powerful, charismatic, witty, and well-educated, and in Rome she was largely insipid, constantly high and strung-out, and often behaved like a child. It was... kind of off-putting. I think she was better in season 2, though? But it's been a while since I saw the show.
 
SofNascimento

SofNascimento

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Morrigan said:
Agreed, I remember not liking her portrayal much (despite liking the show quite a lot), at least when she was introduced. Cleopatra was supposed to be powerful, charismatic, witty, and well-educated, and in Rome she was largely insipid, constantly high and strung-out, and often behaved like a child. It was... kind of off-putting. I think she was better in season 2, though? But it's been a while since I saw the show.
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Not on "official business" though. When she entered politician mode she was very aware and focused.
 
Caz

Caz

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Morrigan said:
Agreed, I remember not liking her portrayal much (despite liking the show quite a lot), at least when she was introduced. Cleopatra was supposed to be powerful, charismatic, witty, and well-educated, and in Rome she was largely insipid, constantly high and strung-out, and often behaved like a child. It was... kind of off-putting. I think she was better in season 2, though? But it's been a while since I saw the show.
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In Season 2, she goes to Rome after Caesar dies and tries to get her son, Caesarion, declared his successor in the midst of a power struggle.

In reality, her son wasn't named Caesarion (that's what people called the kid due to it being obvious who the father was), she was already in Rome when that happened and fled following his death because she realized "oh right, i'm a target due to my association with this man and bearing a child with him".
 
ThereAreFourNaan

ThereAreFourNaan

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Nov 8, 2017
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Persephone said:
excuse my ignorance but given that level of inbreeding... how was she even alive, let alone not significantly disabled in some way? Charles II of Spain was a uhhh fuckin mess
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Inbreeding results in homogeneous groups of people, and recessive alleles express more often. It's bad for evolutionary fitness, but it's not a thing that turns you into a 32 headed monster that gets more fucked up each successive generation - genes need to be in the pool in order to express.
 
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