Fortnite has been removed from Apple & Google app stores after breaking rules on both platforms [Update: Epic filing Lawsuit against Apple & Google]

Shelbyville Milhouse · Aug 13, 2020

So, for people who actually read the lawsuite, I have a question
I doubt Epic can sue Apple for taking a 30% cut, like that's not possible right?
What they are suing for is allowing Epic (and others by extent) to, more or less, create their own App store or payment system where they can sell stuff without giving a cut to Apple? Is that correct?

Mcfrank · Aug 13, 2020

Cyclonesweep said:
So at the end of the day it seems Apple is bad here and console companies are fine because devs see the console 30% share as fair because of what they provide and they see Apples 30% far to large for what they provide.

which makes 0.0% sense

thisismadness · Aug 13, 2020

Cyclonesweep said:
I'm talking from the developer point of view

Epic has always been completely silent on this with regards to the consoles. Would not surprise me if its because there are partnerships in play that give them a much lower rate than the 30%. Sony was willing to break their rule about early access to get Fortnight on the PS4. Valve, Apple, and Google have not been willing to bend, so those are the companies Tim goes after.

SolidChamp · Aug 13, 2020

Megaton thread and the OP is banned? What gives?

This news is HUGE. Did EPIC sign an agreement with Apple on this?

Mentalist · Aug 13, 2020

That

Eggiem said:
Tomorrow: Fortnite removed from all stores! Now an Epic Games Store exclusive.

That was the goal all along, lol

/s

Mcfrank · Aug 13, 2020

SotaSkoldier said:
Except Sony and Microsoft both allow games to have sales within their games while taking a small cut. Apple and Google are just locking down the entire platform from even competing. There is a massive difference.

Explain what you mean. When AC Odyssey puts its DLC on sale from 30 to 15, Microsoft takes less than 30% of that sale on Xbox? Full games are the only thing they take 30% on?

lexony · Aug 13, 2020

Epic does this primarily to probably promote their store and I think it is actually smart to attack the most closed system of them all (Because if the attacked a beloved company like Nintendo they would have failed).

I hope this does somewhat help in the discussion about this whole store cut thing for indie developers but it seems like people only talk about if Epic or Apple are good/bad companies. This makes me sad. Just like the bland design of Fortnite characters and the fact that people like it makes me sad.

Puroresu_kid · Aug 13, 2020

GMM said:
That should work, but as a user you also have to tell Android to trust third party executables coming from outside the Play Store and I believe you also manually need to download an updated apk if the core executable needs to be updated.

That is true. I just feel those not in the know regarding third party sources would feel far more comfortable downloading from epic rather than some some site with thousands of android apks.

big_z · Aug 13, 2020

dtflip said:
I'm pretty sure you can only install third party apps as Test Flight versions that require developer certificates to be refreshed in some way. Its basically a huge pain and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of limitations on what the app can actually do on the device.

I've used testfight a bunch however when tencent was testing different versions of a game I won't name, it was a straight up ipa file you had to manually install. They circumvented TestFlight completely and the game was fully functional. Felt sketchy installing the software but if they can get around apples restrictions I don't see why epic can't follow. Not as user friendly as the App Store but I wouldn't call the process difficult by any means.

sn00zer · Aug 13, 2020

Is there a good explanation of the game Epic is playing here from someone with a legal background? Hot takes on gaming websites just seem to not know what's actually going on.

ScubaSteve693 · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
So, for people who actually read the lawsuite, I have a question
I doubt Epic can sue Apple for taking a 30% cut, like that's not possible right?
What they are suing for is allowing Epic (and others by extent) to, more or less, create their own App store or payment system where they can sell stuff without giving a cut to Apple? Is that correct?

Im sure having their own store could play a part in it, but allowing other payment services to exist on the platform like PayPal or your own credit cards benefits the consumer as well.

Mcfrank said:
which makes 0.0% sense

One thing that does make sense is one major distinction, Apple most likely has much higher profit margins from hardware sales than console makers do. Apple having a high profit margin from hardware and software is what a big problem is and is one of Epic's biggest reasons I would assume.

Koeing · Aug 13, 2020

Puroresu_kid said:
That's what I thought. So in theory Epic could actually host the apk file themselves and direct android users to the Web page to download it.

They already tried this once.

DeadlyVenom · Aug 13, 2020

I look forward to them pulling this on Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft. (they won't)

Shelbyville Milhouse · Aug 13, 2020

ScubaSteve693 said:
Im sure having their own store could play a part in it, but allowing other payment services to exist on the platform like PayPal or your own credit cards benefits the consumer as well.

Apple isn't allowing PayPal? I don't have an iPhone but Google definitely allows Paypal and your own credit card?
Or am I not understanding something here?

unrealist · Aug 13, 2020

.exe said:
Even though a lot of people are talking 30% cut, what Epic wants is to essentially pay nothing to Apple by (1) allowing other app distribution platforms on iOS and (2) allowing alternate payments processing methods for in-app purchases. It seems to me that it's not so much about the 30% as it is about taking Apple out of the equation entirely for software purchases and IAP, presumably to pave the way for an 'Epic Mobile Games Store' on iOS.

this is exactly what it appears to me. Sorry for being a layman and i am definitely not a supporter of either side. But isn't this trying to place your products in someone's backyard to sell yet keep profits entirely for yourself?

if a company place goods at walmart or even a booth at a supermarket selling stuff.. and expect the supermarket to earn nothing (yet making use of their infrastructure) and doesn't pay rent.. doesn't that seem weird?

Rebel1 · Aug 13, 2020

DeadlyVenom said:
I look forward to them pulling this on Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft. (they won't)

The ingame vbucks on the consoles are the same price as the direct to epic payment

Daniel Westlake · Aug 13, 2020

ScubaSteve693 said:
As others have pointed out in other threads, Apple makes a lot more profit off of hardware than console makers do, so the fact they are taking such profit from hardware AND software is what the main difference here is. If Apple sold their devices at a loss or at least dead even, I don't think Epic and other companies would have such a gripe with them.

This logic don't track you're acting like this is a moral disagreement, it's not, its' Epic trying to make more money.

Puroresu_kid · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
Apple isn't allowing PayPal? I don't have an iPhone but Google definitely allows Paypal and your own credit card?
Or am I not understanding something here?

Meaning you can pay without having to go through Google or apple.

Saturday · Aug 13, 2020

so uh, okay. I get there's something to talk about, even if it boils down to 'company wants more money.'

but uh, this whole 1984 comparison is maximum, maximum 'woke brand.' It's genuinely fucking terrible.

dakun · Aug 13, 2020

DeadlyVenom said:
I look forward to them pulling this on Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft. (they won't)

they won't have to. If anything comes out of this in terms of Apple having to change their policies, any company could just point to this lawsuit and sue the other 3.
Apple is the big fish in the pond, if they lose there is no chance this will finish without changes at the big three gaming companies.

nampad · Aug 13, 2020

Even though I think a big open source platform would be the best, Epic makes it difficult to root for them.

Sweeney is just not sympathetic, especially with this being all planned out and Epic also being a big corporation with a powerful investor behind them.
It's not like they made things better with EGS on PCs except by moneyhatting stuff.
Oh and let's not forget how they stopped supporting Rocket League support on Mac and Linux.

Shelbyville Milhouse · Aug 13, 2020

Puroresu_kid said:
Meaning you can pay without having to go through Google or apple.

So effectively they would get no cut at all?

ScubaSteve693 · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
Apple isn't allowing PayPal? I don't have an iPhone but Google definitely allows Paypal and your own credit card?
Or am I not understanding something here?

I may be quoting it wrong, but Apple is essentially acting as a payment processing service, kind of like PayPal, and their cut just happens to be 30% in comparison to PayPal's roughly 3% and credit cards 2ish%. Seems to be a pretty drastic difference, huh?

ZeoVGM · Aug 13, 2020

SolidChamp said:
Megaton thread and the OP is banned? What gives?

You can just look at the post history.

Zen Hero · Aug 13, 2020

So is Fortnite going to be off the app stores for the entire extent of this lawsuit...? It could take years to resolve unless they are betting on someone backing down.

.exe · Aug 13, 2020

unrealist said:
this is exactly what it appears to me. Sorry for being a layman and i am definitely not a supporter of either side. But isn't this trying to place your products in someone's backyard to sell yet keep profits entirely for yourself?

if a company place goods at walmart or even a booth at a supermarket selling stuff.. and expect the supermarket to earn nothing (yet making use of their infrastructure) and doesn't pay rent.. doesn't that seem weird?

I don't really know anything about these things either. It certainly works that way in the PC space, both on MacOS and Windows. They have their own OS branded stores, but you can just install anything and buy software from wherever.

Puroresu_kid · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
So effectively they would get no cut at all?

Correct I think. If those two companies were to bring that cut down less than 30% I assume epic would play ball but then that opens the door for every other app developer and they don't want that.

unrealist · Aug 13, 2020

so in future, if everyone pays directly to Epic for any platform and gets to use every platform for free.. doesn't that mean it is essentially an "Epic Game Store"? And Epic gets to reap all benefits of the platform/infrastructure. It is like selling my things in a shop without paying rent.

ScubaSteve693 · Aug 13, 2020

Daniel Westlake said:
This logic don't track you're acting like this is a moral disagreement, it's not, its' Epic trying to make more money.

I never discounted Epic trying to make more money, but making Apple change up the way in which they payment services could benefit any developer who wants to put their app or game on Apple devices. Sure, it would net Epic more money, but it would also benefit indie developers, bigger developers, middle of the pack developers. Just because you don't want the big scary Epic to have more money, doesn't mean you should prevent the smaller once from getting the same benefit because "Fuck Epic."

LifeLine · Aug 13, 2020

wow they're taking a big loss on this legal bet

Puroresu_kid · Aug 13, 2020

Zen Hero said:
So is Fortnite going to be off the app stores for the entire extent of this lawsuit...? It could take years to resolve unless they are betting on someone backing down.

They do have the fans who especially on ios won't stop bugging apple to get it back on the platform.

Deleted member 50374 · Aug 13, 2020

unrealist said:
so in future, if everyone pays directly to Epic for any platform and gets to use every platform for free.. doesn't that mean it is essentially an "Epic Game Store"? And Epic gets to reap all benefits of the platform/infrastructure. It is like selling my things in a shop without paying rent.

No physical shop in the world is paid to host products from someone else. Shops resell stock they buy from producers

Eggiem · Aug 13, 2020

Wait, Fortnite made V bucks 20% cheaper? Not 30? So they make 10% more now when kids buy them?

Shelbyville Milhouse · Aug 13, 2020

Puroresu_kid said:
Correct I think. If those two companies were to bring that cut down less than 30% I assume epic would play ball but then that opens the door for every other app developer and they don't want that.

I'm not a lawyer but that seems insane to win in court. Apple and Google will fight this to the bitter end, they would loose an insane amount of money if this passes?

Lobster Roll · Aug 13, 2020

THRILLHO said:
If I had a public twitter account, I'd ask Sweeney if I could make dances and emotes and sell them in fortnite without giving Epic a cut.

Apple's App Store = Epic's Fornite market, in effect

They'll just rip your content, change it by 1%, give it a name that's unrelated to you, and sell it themselves.

Daniel Westlake · Aug 13, 2020

ScubaSteve693 said:
I never discounted Epic trying to make more money, but making Apple change up the way in which they payment services could benefit any developer who wants to put their app or game on Apple devices. Sure, it would net Epic more money, but it would also benefit indie developers, bigger developers, middle of the pack developers. Just because you don't want the big scary Epic to have more money, doesn't mean you should prevent the smaller once from getting the same benefit because "Fuck Epic."

Slow down there cowpoke you done gone riding off in a completely separate direction from what I said and what you stated in your earlier post.

Puroresu_kid · Aug 13, 2020

ScubaSteve693 said:
I may be quoting it wrong, but Apple is essentially acting as a payment processing service, kind of like PayPal, and their cut just happens to be 30% in comparison to PayPal's roughly 3% and credit cards 2ish%. Seems to be a pretty drastic difference, huh?

Huge. Put it like that and it sounds ridiculous.

dep9000 · Aug 13, 2020

Primethius said:
Google and Apple are not remotely close, at all.

You're right. Apple has a lot of catching up to do

GMM · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
So, for people who actually read the lawsuite, I have a question
I doubt Epic can sue Apple for taking a 30% cut, like that's not possible right?
What they are suing for is allowing Epic (and others by extent) to, more or less, create their own App store or payment system where they can sell stuff without giving a cut to Apple? Is that correct?

Haven't read the entire lawsuit, but it's probably more to do with Epic alleging that Apple is creating unfair terms for developers by limiting their means of selling their product even if they want to handle every single aspect of the distribution process.

The goal seems to be that Epic ideally wants to have options to pay a 0% share to both Apple and Google for every transaction made, so it's more about Epic challenging current market practices and seeing if they can earn more money by forcing a change in how monetization on mobile can work.

Whatever transactions that have been made at 30% is not in question, those have been made under the terms of service they agreed to with Apple.

Epic is overreaching for sure, but they have a point that Apple is stifling software innovation by enforcing anti competitive restrictions on their platform.

Shelbyville Milhouse · Aug 13, 2020

ScubaSteve693 said:
I may be quoting it wrong, but Apple is essentially acting as a payment processing service, kind of like PayPal, and their cut just happens to be 30% in comparison to PayPal's roughly 3% and credit cards 2ish%. Seems to be a pretty drastic difference, huh?

Sure, but Apple and Google are also making the entire OS tho?
Not saying they deserve that high of a cut but a direct comparison between what they do and what Paypal does seems unreasonable.

GMM said:
Haven't read the entire lawsuit, but it's probably more to do with Epic alleging that Apple is creating unfair terms for developers by limiting their means of selling their product even if they want to handle every single aspect of the distribution process.

The goal seems to be that Epic ideally wants to have options to pay a 0% share to both Apple and Google for every transaction made, so it's more about Epic challenging current market practices and seeing if they can earn more money by forcing a change in how monetization on mobile can work.

Whatever transactions that have been made at 30% is not in question, those have been made under the terms of service they agreed to with Apple.

Epic is overreaching for sure, but they have a point that Apple is stifling software innovation by enforcing anti competitive restrictions on their platform.

Interesting, thanks.

I'm curious how this plays out, I find it hard to envision Epic "winning" this but they probably wouldn't do all of this if they didn't have a chance.

pg2g · Aug 13, 2020

unrealist said:
this is exactly what it appears to me. Sorry for being a layman and i am definitely not a supporter of either side. But isn't this trying to place your products in someone's backyard to sell yet keep profits entirely for yourself?

if a company place goods at walmart or even a booth at a supermarket selling stuff.. and expect the supermarket to earn nothing (yet making use of their infrastructure) and doesn't pay rent.. doesn't that seem weird?

In your scenario, Walmart is providing a physical presence as well as staff to sell said products.

You can say Apple provides the same, but that's only because they have a walled garden and they mandate it to be that way. Is it okay to have a walled garden of 1.5 billion devices and actively engage in anti-competitive behavior? I think that's the question that needs to be asked.

TylerDurden4321 · Aug 13, 2020

unrealist said:
so in future, if everyone pays directly to Epic for any platform and gets to use every platform for free.. doesn't that mean it is essentially an "Epic Game Store"? And Epic gets to reap all benefits of the platform/infrastructure. It is like selling my things in a shop without paying rent.

Or like Windows... where Epic can have their own store.

ThatMeanScene · Aug 13, 2020

I just saw this on my timeline. I don't know if Slasher is the first to report this.

BREAKING: Epic has filed suit against Google as well

enzo_gt · Aug 13, 2020

Can't help but feel that this is really well calculated on Epic's part. Timed with a media campaign, prepared lawsuits, discounts for consumers, all amidst massive legislative scrutiny for the exact things that Epic is complaining about. I wonder if Sweeney is or will be in contact with the House Antitrust Subcommittee.

Deleted member 50374 · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
Sure, but Apple and Google are also making the entire OS tho?
Not saying they deserve that high of a cut but a direct comparison between what they do and what Paypal does seems unreasonable.

Microsoft has a lot more work to do to support more hardware than iOS can ever dream of running on, and yet, they don't monetize on developers as hard as Apple does

You have to buy a Mac to sell on iOS. And also you pay for a tiny, worthless spot on a huge junkyard where you have to do the marketing on your own just for the privilege of letting Apple spend less than a percent of their cut on hosting it.

Cyclonesweep · Aug 13, 2020

Puroresu_kid said:
Huge. Put it like that and it sounds ridiculous.

30% cut for say downloadable content or the app itself makes sense to me as Apple etc host the data. But for stuff like iap where the app already has the data and you are paying for an unlock, 30% makes absolutely no sense. The IAP take needs to be drastically lower

Uzupedro · Aug 13, 2020

Welp, at least they are going to fight everyone lol

ScubaSteve693 · Aug 13, 2020

Fantastapotamus said:
Sure, but Apple and Google are also making the entire OS tho?
Not saying they deserve that high of a cut but a direct comparison between what they do and what Paypal does seems unreasonable.

Yes, they made the entire OS, but then had no part in actually developing the app/game that is being put onto that OS? 30% for just hosting an app on their service is a bit extreme to say the least. I am not saying to get rid of it entirely, and neither is Epic from their own statements on it, but people shouldn't be pigeonholed into one payment processing service just because of the OS.

Abylim · Aug 13, 2020

ThatMeanScene said:
I just saw this on my timeline. I don't know if Slasher is the first to report this.

I figured they pretty much had too, otherwise it looks like they are targeting apple, which they probably are, but still.

Even if you can side load apps and stuff, google store still banned them, and according Tims reasoning, consoles dont count, so he should go after google too

Azaan60 · Aug 13, 2020

Holy shit, this is getting good lmao

Fortnite has been removed from Apple & Google app stores after breaking rules on both platforms [Update: Epic filing Lawsuit against Apple & Google]

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