Bad guys are bad guys, gotcha. The house is burning down and instead of doing anything it's far smarter to just yell at the guy who started the fire once the fire is out than during.
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Fired-up Biden shows gloves are off in January 6 anniversary speech
- Thread starter ThisThingIsUseful
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Describing supporting and enabling genocide as "taking the bad with the good" is the part folks have a problem with. It should be understandable why folks are, at the moment, refusing to vote for someone doing that.
Folks are arguing that folks doing nothing during a fire is the exact same as an arsonist starting the fire. I don't agree. The arsonist deserves the blame.
I'm also not arguing for folks to withhold their vote, by the way.
Minorities are trapped in a perpetual cycle of waiting for things to get better. We vote for the people who promise us progress, but at the same time our warranted criticism of that same party when they come up short is dampened by the perpetual threat of things getting so much worse should the other side win.
I'm disillusioned as fuck but it's not because others are complaining about having to do this fucking song and dance again. I'm disillusioned because we have no fucking choice but to vote for people who only benefit from half-fulfilling their promises and enabling genocide while keeping the literal fascists who would kill us if given the chance at arms length. They do not have my respect. They have my obedience.
Either way the house burns down no matter who's getting the blame. I'm not attacking you btw, and I'm glad you aren't arguing for not voting. I'm just pointing out I believe 100% is a thinking error that too many people fall into, which keeps making circumstances worse for everybody.
Edit: defending inaction by blaming the actions of others is 100% a logical fallacy.
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Is it hypernegativity or Biden's dehumanizing language when talking about the Palestinians just sounds painfully familiar to any person of color? I guess it's too much for us racial minority to ask to be seen as human by the candidate we are supposed to vote for.
I can understand people struggling with the morality of voting for Joe Biden, but I don't understand how folks only see a vote for him as a tacit endorsement of the man or what he has done. It's a practical vote, plain and simple. I do not like Joe Biden nor do I want him to be president but it's either that or something much worse. I can sit home and yeah it's not a vote for Trump, but it's not a vote against him either. I hate so very much that these are our candidates but one of these dudes has to win.
You can vote for Joe Biden while also lambasting him and doing what you can to pressure change within his administration. It's not one or the other.
You can vote for Joe Biden while also lambasting him and doing what you can to pressure change within his administration. It's not one or the other.
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It's possible to despise Biden's policy toward the Israeli government and still vote for him because of his other policies. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Edit: fracas said it better while I was typing.
In a match up of Trump vs Biden I'll be voting for Biden and doing everything I can to make sure everyone else I know is doing so.
That being said Biden had better keep bringing lots of fire between now and November because his reprehensible and disgusting support of the massacre in Gaza is harming his already tepid support and enthusiasm among key middle eastern minority groups and young people more than I think he or the rest of his yes man advisors appreciate. Bypassing Congress to send weapons that Israel will use to slaughter another 30,000 Palestinians is not only morally indefensible but a catastrophe self-own in both domestic politics and geopolitics.
I hate Joe Biden. I'm deep into the red of "strongly disapprove." And I hate that our stupid fucking electoral system is giving us a trolley problem between supporting one genocide and supporting three or more.
But here we are. Hating it doesn't make it go away. I know that. Yet I'm terrified Biden will lose because he's so rapidly burning through whatever goodwill he had with fickle young people who already hate him for being too old. And if Trump wins we're fucked.
That being said Biden had better keep bringing lots of fire between now and November because his reprehensible and disgusting support of the massacre in Gaza is harming his already tepid support and enthusiasm among key middle eastern minority groups and young people more than I think he or the rest of his yes man advisors appreciate. Bypassing Congress to send weapons that Israel will use to slaughter another 30,000 Palestinians is not only morally indefensible but a catastrophe self-own in both domestic politics and geopolitics.
I hate Joe Biden. I'm deep into the red of "strongly disapprove." And I hate that our stupid fucking electoral system is giving us a trolley problem between supporting one genocide and supporting three or more.
But here we are. Hating it doesn't make it go away. I know that. Yet I'm terrified Biden will lose because he's so rapidly burning through whatever goodwill he had with fickle young people who already hate him for being too old. And if Trump wins we're fucked.
It's just the latest permutation of dumb Twitter-tier online discourse like "Drumpf" or "Obummer" or "Killary" or "AmeriKKKa" or, hell, "Micro$oft" (if you wanna go back to pre-Twitter). I hate that shit even though I agree that Biden is enabling a genocide.
This is an unhinged post. Even the most basic reading of the past 100 years of history would show you that cutting to the "chase and fight scene" of authoritarianism is generally followed by decades of oppression, death, disaster. I'm sure the left wing opposition and vulnerable minority groups in the Weimar Republic or 1979 Iran sure were glad they cut to the chase and fight scene. What the fuck.
Well said and everyone needs to relax because Biden is winning 2024z
i didn't say cut to the chase to authoritarianism, i said lets fight. stop paging me pls?
This is an amazingly privileged take. How deluded do you have to be to just wish for the worst just to get over with?
As a Jew, Biden not enabling the genocide in Gaza by the IDF would make me happier to vote for him. I don't think it's a safe assumption that simply being Jewish equals being anti-Palestine. Now if he was pro Hamas, or ever made a statement that made it sound like Hamas was justified in committing terrorism, he'd quickly lose all the Jewish vote.
It's the side effect of how criticizing Israel has become synonymous with being anti-Semitic with a great deal of folks.
I love how the left is always the punching bag that causes all the problems. The problem isn't the left fighting amongst themselves it's Liberals fighting the left. The "moderate" PACs will primary the Progressive candidates and push em all out while the media joyfully helps. There are already so few and no more prominent lefties in the Democratic party is just as scary as Trump imo. Liberals get that bag and progressives can't compete. So all those complaining about the left don't have to worry much longer.
Additionally the Republicans do fight amongst themselves all the time. They just don't have as much of a gulf between them that Libs and lefties do. That gulf of course is that juicy stock portfolio.
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If I may pick your brains for a second: many of my Jewish friends are hugely pro-Israel in this conflict, and none of them are conservative Jews. Paraphrasing, but 'I now realize half the world wants me dead' and 'Why is no onus being put on Hamas to release hostages and end this?' are refrains I hear. One in particular was mortified at that picture that circulated of Hamas people parachuting into Israel in a show of solidarity IIRC.
But for the same reasons I don't like talking about it here and telling Muslim members anything, I don't feel comfortable talking to my Jewish friends about things I disagree with because it's so heated and so emotional (for good reason, of course). I also think Netanyahu deserves a ton of blame for focusing so much on removing the rights of citizens through weakening the judiciary and not paying attention to external forces.
How old are y'all? My Jewish friends in this case are in their early 30s.
I'm in my early 30s. American Jews are propagandized from a young age to support Israel uncritically, and many of us have family in Israel. Our families, our services, our Sunday school all push Zionist propaganda on us and encourage us to engage in activities like Birthright. Jews are no less susceptible to propaganda and misinformation than any other group. But with the advent of social media and other journailsm, the reality of Israel's genocide is getting harder and harder to ignore. I can speak from personal experience that the younger members in my family are currently at odds with the older gens on this subject.
A poll a couple of years ago shows the generational gap on the issue.
Again, this isn't calculus. Biden is uniquely evil in this being extreme is his support of this genocidal campaign with the aim of the eradication of Gaza as a habitable place for Palestinians.
How Joe Biden became America's top Israel hawk
The president once said “Israel could get into a fistfight with this country and we’d still defend" it. That is now clearer than ever.
www.motherjones.com
View: https://x.com/MotherJones/status/1738250718577111452?s=20
That is just the very tip of iceberg in the article. Biden isn't going through any informed policy but simple conviction that Israel has the right to eradicate Palestinians.
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I'm in my early 30s. American Jews are propagandized from a young age to support Israel uncritically, and many of us have family in Israel. Our families, our services, our Sunday school all push Zionist propaganda on us and encourage us to engage in activities like Birthright. Jews are no less susceptible to propaganda and misinformation than any other group. But with the advent of social media and other journailsm, the reality of Israel's genocide is getting harder and harder to ignore. I can speak from personal experience that the younger members in my family are currently at odds with the older gens on this subject.
A poll a couple of years ago shows the generational gap on the issue.
This info is hugely appreciated, thanks!
This is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about, Jesus dude.
Late 20s. I'm pro Israel, anti IDF. And very much anti Hamas.
I will never again mock some conservatives for being single issue voters. Not after some of the posts here. Fucking hell...
You're not. You're more obsessed with gatekeeping than anything else!
I don't understand what this even means in this context. It's just a fact. Liberals or "moderates" are the ones attacking the left. Sure both are left of Maga but that is a very low bar to clear. Special interests were caught off guard by the rise of progressives but they are organizing.
I hope voices like the Squad grow but I don't see that happening when they are attacked by "moderates" and the Maga cult. They get it from all sides. Liberals can change though and get their heads out of their asses but I think for the most part they are out to lunch.
By attacking, you mean with words and ideas. Because the right is attacking the left through threats of violence and acts of violence, and legislating existence. So we're clear.
It was a great speech and certainly would help combat the propaganda about Biden being low energy or lacking mental acuity if folks were aware of it which I guess is why I'm not surprised that attempts to highlight it or discuss it have been completely derailed.
The weaponization of wedge issues is something we have seen repeatedly in every single major election since 2016 because it works. You have folks in here who should be in a coalition doing everything in their power to hold fascism at bay instead at each others throats and advocating for outright abstention. Did we learn nothing from 2016? Or 2020? The stakes are even higher now and yet here we are. At some point we need to decide we aren't gonna allow ourselves to be arms of right wing propagandists.
The weaponization of wedge issues is something we have seen repeatedly in every single major election since 2016 because it works. You have folks in here who should be in a coalition doing everything in their power to hold fascism at bay instead at each others throats and advocating for outright abstention. Did we learn nothing from 2016? Or 2020? The stakes are even higher now and yet here we are. At some point we need to decide we aren't gonna allow ourselves to be arms of right wing propagandists.
Obviously... what a strange question. Look it's up to Dems at the end of the day to reject narratives that pin all failings on the left. Seeing people here get excited about Kamala Harris and Gavin Newsom as presidential candidates is concerning to say the least. I don't know what else to say. I fear for some of the Squad going forward because they are going to get challenged hard and if they are gone the Dems lose some very powerful voices.
this is such a funny article to use for this argument because the second paragraph namedrops the Leftist* PAC that was created specifically to target liberals, and then gets quotes from that same Leftist** PAC's leader whining about it.
*well, i mean, lmao
**lmao
I recommend people worried about the stakes to use their energy to push their reps and Biden to stop supporting a genocide, potentially getting us into another war in the Middle East or push a different candidate instead of tut tuting people who are rightly upset by the administrations decisions over the last 3 months.
If providing a blank check, political cover and no restrictions on blowing children into literal chunks of flesh means "taking the good with the bad", then Im good.
If providing a blank check, political cover and no restrictions on blowing children into literal chunks of flesh means "taking the good with the bad", then Im good.
Of course, blaming anyone for everything is folly. Surely, people wouldn't do that... As a fairly center-left, if the options were to present themselves, I'd much rather have a progressive-as-all-hell candidate any day over a fascist authoritarian. But we take the reality we are given and fight for a better future.
Just because the moderate PAC says they are "only doing this because progressives are doing it first" doesn't hold much water. They would be there anyway they are just trying to quell criticism. Especially considering the strength of Liberal PACs. How many times have we read about a progressives winning despite their opponent out spending by crazy amounts.
Summer Lee vs Steve Irwin was a prime example of the power of SuperPACs and what progressive have to contend with.
AIPAC is going to go hard at progressives. Damn if the Squad gets ousted oof.
The Squad Is About to Fight for Its Political Life
One of the biggest Israel lobbies is waging a bitter battle to defeat progressives in 2024.
I will add: it's also going to be hard to mock right-wingers for thinking that complex issues can be boiled down to a 3-word chant. Even the dumbest Trump supporters probably never thought Jared Kushner was going to solve Middle East peace.
I know a dozen people already responded to you but I want to add: when has politics NOT been to vote for the lesser of evils? It's been that way since before you or I were born and it's going to be that way long after we're distant memories. That goes for me in Canada too.
It was a decent speech. Biden is nonetheless supporting and endorsing genocide in Palestine via IDF. If our entire way of life and domestic democracy wasn't literally, clearly, and obviously at grave risk in 2024, it would be easy to vote third-party. Biden can be a horrible president and the candidate you vote for because the alternative is the end of America as we know it. It's horrible that it's come to this, but sitting out the 2024 general election or voting for someone else is a vote for fascism. And a vote to endanger every American who isn't Christian, white, and/or a cis dude. If Trump gets back into office, we will have even less hope to end the genocide in Palestine.
Should people feel bad voting for Biden due to the fact that if Trump wins, their lives will be over?
Coalition building requires at a bare minimum being on the same page about basic foundational political tenets, and liberals and far-leftists have never actually been in agreement on these things despite sharing some ideological overlap. It also requires an open commitment to criticism and pushback when people wanna fuck around with the principles that were previously agreed upon. Incumbent Democrats are largely protected from criticism by liberals under the assumption that criticism is an automatic point for conservatives.
It's not just the past 8 years that this has been an ideological issue. This is a centuries' old battle.
Your prerequisites for a coalition are different from many people. The coalition is against MAGA fascism. The coalition includes people like Liz Cheney who has been as strongly anti-MAGA as any politician has, yet whose political ideology consists of values nearly everyone else in the coalition would disagree with.
Incumbent Democrats such as Kathy Hochul, Eric Adams, even Gavin Newsom get plenty of criticism from the left here and elsewhere even from people you'd consider to be moderate liberals. The difference is that the potential consequence of that criticism isn't a backslide of people's rights toward what the right wants. Depressing turnout for Hochul isn't likely to put someone worse in office.
Look, here's the straight shot: I'm going to vote for Biden. But I don't like having to do it and everyone that tries to shame me with "I can't believe you think [X] is a bigger deal than fascism!" makes me more annoyed about it. Not annoyed enough to not vote for him, which is I think the only thing they want, but annoyed by it. I'm part Persian, watching this shit unfurl and Biden outright lying to sell the body count ("We've seen evidence that the command center is under this hospital," "I have seen pictures of beheaded babies,") makes me think that the moral leg up we have on Republicans holding pizza restaurants hostage because of trafficked kids is and always has been utterly imaginary.
The thing I keep asking myself is "Is there a group of people that, if Biden decided to aid in their ethnic and cultural elimination, he would lose my support regardless of the consequence?"
I understand some people, including a majority here, consider any bit better than Trump to be a victory. Even if Biden wins the election (which is ultimately going to be in the hands of economic swing voters), I will still feel like I gave up my only leverage against making him a better president because the alternative is worse.
Correct. And people should realize that, over time, we have been winning the battle for human rights, bit by bit. It hasn't been all wins, there have been backslides - and right now, we are in the middle of a global backslide. And not just a backslide of rights, but a backslide of democracy itself. That makes it more important than ever to hold the line. People wanting the world to be perfect tomorrow are being infantile, and only helping it become worse instead.
And it's also only been a decade since the internet has made it incredibly easy for disinformation and coordinated campaigns to be conducted to weaponize wedge issues to the point where focus is shifted entirely away from the common ground the coalition should have in preventing authoritarian Christo-fascism that would, in itself, lead to the deaths and persecution of countless people.
But even just ignoring the domestic concerns in play it's hard to ignore the fact the ongoing war in Ukraine and the massive casualties they have endured are somehow never brought up or mentioned in these objections. You have GOP congresspersons actively preventing life saving military aid to a country under siege by a despot. Aid that would absolutely vanish if the despotic stooge running for president is allowed to be re elected.
When a single wedge issue becomes the solitary focus and leads to rampant voter suppression advocacy it would be incredibly naive to not look at the interests being served. It's obvious. We can look at past election seasons and easily see attempts to use other wedge issues to do the exact same thing. The answer here isn't to allow yourself to play directly into the oppositions hands. That's exactly how we get suppressed turnout and horrific electoral consequences. Make no mistake the consequences at risk here are dire. This time it's not just about the next decade or even the next generation. We are dealing with a threat to very concept of democracy and the rise of authoritarianism. We are dealing with forces attempting to dismantle the entire concept of representative democracy. An event that would echo across the entire world and usher in the complete collapse of the modicum of checks we have against outright global conflict.
Edit: and before someone responds saying I'm tired of being told about the threats in play or the stakes. I get it. It's exhausting. But the answer isn't to absolve your self of the responsibility to push back against it. We have work to do. That work starts with the vote it doesn't end with it. The mistake is treating your vote as the statement instead of the first step.
And I think you would find that the overwhelming majority of people voting for Biden on Era would 100% agree with you. I don't see cheerleaders for Biden on here, do you? What I see is a bunch of democrats, progressives, and even some center left people basically saying: I cannot let Donald Trump Jr. sniff a chance at a win here because we know what that will mean.
That is what this thread was originally about, that is what that speech was originally about. No one is here excusing Biden for his immoral and wrong policy decisions, lest I have missed it.
This post is basically how I feel and I'm willing to bet is exactly how most ERA voters feel.
Advocacy does not end with your vote it starts there. Absolutely nobody is saying anyone should not advocate for the people of Gaza or any other cause that they feel passionately about. The mistake is thinking a vote (or a forum/social media post) is the culmination of the work or worse yet that refusal to engage entirely is somehow accomplishing something.
Then Dems need to build a coalition without Muslims and Arabs.
You cannot ask people to join a coalition and tell them the only path to victory includes sacrificing their kin to the genocide machine.