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Lynx_7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
I gave Conquest an honorable mention fully aware that it didn't have a chance. These days people act as if the entire game was an unsalvageable mess.

EDIT: Though it's not like people haven't soured on Awakening either. Funny to think how this was once a thing:
pgYHnOK.png

(From the 2015 edition)
 
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Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
the Top RPG list is always weird to me. There's nothing wrong with doing it and it's a lot of fun, but it's really just kind of a memory/recency/popularity thing than the quality indicator some people seem to think it is.

Also, is Fates considered three different games for the poll? If so, that would likely hurt it's chances far more than people not liking the story.
 
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NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,336
the Top RPG list is always weird to me. There's nothing wrong with doing it and it's a lot of fun, but it's really just kind of a memory/recency/popularity thing than the quality indicator some people seem to think it is.

Also, is Fates considered three different games for the poll? If so, that would likely hurt it's chances far more than people not liking the story.
Yeah, it is more like a recommendations' list
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Yeah the most popular game is going to win. I doubt many people played the pre-7 games even on here so there weren't going to get many votes. And Fates is different enough that it should have been separated. If you liked Conquest it wasn't going to necessarily to mean you were going to like the other two games.
 

Lynx_7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,335
These lists are interesting to gauge popular opinion/word of mouth on certain titles throughout the years in a more concise and objective manner than going by "feeling". You have Awakening debuting in the top 10 and then rapidly falling out of the top 50 in the following years, P4 debuting at #9, eventually making it all the way up to #2 and being a strong top 3 contender ever since, Xenoblade always performing strongly but also slowly slipping away from the top 10 (5-7-9-?), some older games seeing a resurgence in popularity (FF IX, Nier, possibly FF VIII), and so on. I don't think many people look at it as an actual "quality ranking" (some certainly take it way more seriously than they should, but that is the case with anything ever on the internet) but moreso as a way to read different opinions on a variety of titles and seeing which games are most often recommended by the community.
 

Thuddert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,298
Netherlands
Path of Radiance difficulty "moderate" in the top RPGs writeup lol

The hard mode is moderate, but it should have been user defined I think.

It is sad that people care so much about story so Conquest will never have a chance

X made the list so. But yeah I care a lot about story even when tell me FE is not for the story.

FE games just got vote splitted badly. Well not as bad as Ys games.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Found this on reddit

Fire Emblem: Awakening's take on Alm via the DLC:

jkOyXpl.png


Interesting how a DLC has a better grasp on duality than Echoes by having Alm actually contrast with Celica. I know it's yet another "fuck Echoes" post, but it's a legitimate point. It really lends credence to the idea that Alm is basically a modern nice guy light novel anime protagonist, who starts out compassionate, virtuous and patient.... and ends that way.
 
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Sterok

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,085
I remember being disappointed that Alm was less... aggressive than Awakening made him out to be. Ended up being a less interesting character and a weaker contrast to Celica than I was hoping for.
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Kyle McFarley + English localization (which gives Alm more personality and makes him more endearing) carry him their fucking backs. Without those things, he's an easy contender for the second worst FE lord.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,548
Found this on reddit

Fire Emblem: Awakening's take on Alm via the DLC:

jkOyXpl.png


Interesting how a DLC has a better grasp on duality than Echoes by having Alm actually contrast with Celica. I know it's yet another "fuck Echoes" post, but it's a legitimate point. It really lends credence to the idea that Alm is basically a modern nice guy light novel anime protagonist, who starts out compassionate, virtuous and patient.... and ends that way.

Huh, haven't we talked about that before? I've specifically cited the Awakening DLC as a better approach to Alm. Wish they'd gone with that duality between him and Celica, because the approach they took actively took away from her characterization as a pacifistic adherent of Mila, since Alm... was basically the same. He's still eminently likable, because of the stellar localization and voice acting, but the narrative is worse off.

Can enjoy Echoes while admitting its flaws and how it could better itself. It's the reason to criticize any game, so the series as a whole may yet improve. :P
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
Huh, haven't we talked about that before? I've specifically cited the Awakening DLC as a better approach to Alm. Wish they'd gone with that duality between him and Celica, because the approach they took actively took away from her characterization as a pacifistic adherent of Mila, since Alm... was basically the same. He's still eminently likable, because of the stellar localization and voice acting, but the narrative is worse off.

Can enjoy Echoes while admitting its flaws and how it could better itself. It's the reason to criticize any game, so the series as a whole may yet improve. :P

Nah I don't recall us going over the Awakening DLC (but my memory is sketch, so maybe we did lmao)

And yeah. I think they deliberately went for a protagonist that was more... digestible? Because that's what popular at the moment. To the detriment of the entire game, as this post puts its best:

I would argue it's one and the same. Echoes is all about duality. There are two countries, two gods with two separate ideologies and we follow two different protagonists who separate due to two separate beliefs or at the very least priorities.

By making it so that Alm is overwhelmingly in the right and crushes the opposition effortlessly, it severely weakens the themes and Celica's role in the story. Alm is the one who kicks the Rigelians out, defeats Rudolf, restores the peace, and eventually saves Celica from what is effectively portrayed as her own stupidity, where she cries and asks for forgiveness.

In addition to ruining Celica's role in the story, Alm also straight up grabs some themes and break them over his knee. There is a strong running theme that your actions should decide how far you can go in life, something Alm explicitly preaches - equality is important and all that - but then towards the end they would have literally been stuck in an inescapable underground tunnel if Alm didn't have special blood.

I like him (he's my flair on the FE subreddit) but he's honestly a gross character.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,548
Looks like it was just me ranting. Twinsies.

Alm and Celica's dynamic had potential. If they were truly meant to symbolize Duma and Mila, Alm should have been a shade darker, more battle-thirsty, like in Awakening—a true representative of Rigelian royalty; instead, Alm didn't want to fight either, so Celica's pacifistic altruism had little contrast, and her character's purpose was undercut.

I enjoyed their confrontation at the end of Chapter 2. It did feel realistic. Not because of their genders—what a frustrating stereotype for him to evoke—but because Alm was high on his victory over the nobility, and off-handedly voiced his resentment, which was an unwitting slap in Celica's face due to her secret heritage. He didn't mean to hurt her, but that doesn't mean her feelings were irrational, since her childhood best friend had just voiced derision toward what she was, after reaffirming his military ambitions that she had envisioned leading to his demise (and that threaten her royal claim).

Then, of course, they threw her character's ability to reason off a cliff in the back-half. Her damseling for Conrad ex machina didn't help, either. She obviously should have retained her agency and mental faculties in a better imagining of Echoes' plot, and her and Alm's groups confronted Jedah and Duma as equals, rather than Alm as savior.
 

NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,336
Kyle McFarley + English localization (which gives Alm more personality and makes him more endearing) carry him their fucking backs. Without those things, he's an easy contender for the second worst FE lord.
I was going to ask who the worst lord is but I remembered Corrin
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
PK has a sweet spot for Corrin. Gotta be Roy then.

Nah I can make a measured observation and put bias aside.

Thinking it over, Corrin's easily the worst. Partly because of the writing (in Conquest, the narrative is terrified of making her do morally questionable things which leads to so many frustrating moments and plot contrivances) and partly because her personality is really archetypical and she doesn't really grow in any of the routes. She doesn't experience meaningful hardship either (barring Conquest, kinda).

Roy is bland and mostly an empty shell of a person in FE6, but he isn't anywhere near as frustrating as Corrin. The nuggets of traits he has (intelligence, tactical skill, etc) are pretty good as well.

Bottom 5 lords imo are:

1) Corrin

2) Roy

3) Alm

4) Celica

5) Lyn or Marth. FE12 Marth is incredibly bad, apparently.
 
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NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,336
I can give Corrin a pass because Azura makes him/her look like a good character by comparison
 

Normal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,296
Worst lords for me
1.Corrin
2.Celica
3.Marth

Corrin and Celica are just dumb, and the decision they make through out the game man. It really annoyed me haha. Marth is there since I just found him to be boring, honestly don't remember anything about him from Shadow Dragon.
 

Thuddert

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,298
Netherlands
Most of the lords are not shown governing, but rather taking back what belonged to them or their families.

So I think the better question is who are the good lords?
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
Nah I can make a measured observation and put bias aside.

Thinking it over, Corrin's easily the worst. Partly because of the writing (in Conquest, the narrative is terrified of making her do morally questionable things which leads to so many frustrating moments and plot contrivances) and partly because her personality is really archetypical and she doesn't really grow in any of the routes. She doesn't experience meaningful hardship either (barring Conquest, kinda).

Roy is bland and mostly an empty shell of a person in FE6, but he isn't anywhere near as frustrating as Corrin. The nuggets of traits he has (intelligence, tactical skill, etc) are pretty good as well.

Bottom 5 lords imo are:

1) Corrin

2) Roy

3) Alm

4) Celica

5) Lyn or Marth. FE12 Marth is incredibly bad, apparently.
Is this list purely character-wise?
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,380
Corrin and Celica are just dumb, and the decision they make through out the game man. It really annoyed me haha. Marth is there since I just found him to be boring, honestly don't remember anything about him from Shadow Dragon.

He was just generically heroic in the original games. Shadow Dragon pushes the idea that Marth puts on a tough and charismatic front for the people but opens up to Nina and Jeigan, showing his weakness. The issue is that due to him basically only interacting with Nina throughout the story, outside of about two scenes and recruitment conversations, it really doesn't seem like he keeps anything to himself and he's often lamenting about the tragedy of war to Nina. The game really needed a larger cast with actual story roles to make that work. There's also that one scene where he talks about how he hates the enemies that attacked his homeland, but he has to put it behind him since they're just people too, although it's basically just one scene, rather than an actual running plotline.

Then New Mystery has him as this idealistic lord that gathers people around him due to his purity and ideal image, and can get far due to the support of everyone around him, rather than personal strength and strong rule (the game compares him with Anri who was more based on personal strength). This characterization also seems to have been pushed from then on, which is why his upgrade in Heroes was support based. I'm not sure it was a good choice, especially when other lords are pushed as both incomparably strong and great leaders too.
 

GeekyDad

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,689
USA
Replaying Shadow Dragon (DS) for about the third (or fourth, I can't remember) time, and I have to say, it's still one of, if not the my very favorite FE game still. As brief and lean as the story and dialogue are, neither are dreadful, which is hard to say about many FE games. Plus, it's just such good, straightforward yet fairly polished FE gameplay. It's also beautiful to look at. The colors can be a tad drab, but the animations and sprites are delightful.
 

KushalaDaora

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,838
Just finished Sacred Stone (Eirika route).

- The main story is worse than FE7. I don't like the game throws you directly into the middle of conflict right from the beginning.

- Definitely have a much weaker world-building compared to FE7.

- The villain is so bad, literally Evil God that want to destroy the world for the evulz. Nergal from FE7 at least the game actually explore his past and the reason why he became evil. And the secondary villains (Grado Empire) is not as interesting as the Black Fang, the evil generals is so comically evil it reminds me of Iago and Zola from Fates.

- Eirika and Ephraim is alright (Eirika is really sweet). They really lack any notable character development.

- I think the non-important playable side characters are more interesting than the one in FE7. I like their design better too. L'arachel ftw.

- The game is really easyyyyy, I don't even use the world map for grinding. I feel like the enemies are just overall weaker, missions are more straightforward and there aren't really any dangerous bosses (like Lloyd in FE7). Plus Ephraim is broken as fk with Siegmund. The final mission doesn't even have any gimmick (compare to FE7 where you fight all previous major bosses, and the final boss summons Units that can bombard you with long range spells).

In a way, Sacred Stones reminds me a lot of Awakening.
 

NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,336
A character doesn't need character development to be good, tho I agree that is a lot of case it is bad
 

GeekyDad

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,689
USA
Yeah, Awakening and SS are pretty similar in a lot of ways. I don't remember the story and dialogue all that well as it's been quite a few years since I've played it, but I can't imagine it being worse than FE7 in that regard. And that is really one of the main reasons Shadow Dragon on the DS is still one of my favorite FEs. In spite of it not having a lot of dialogue, or story for that matter, it's not terrible, which is saying a lot for Fire Emblem. In 7, for instance, the "Hi, nice to meet you, let me instantly without any prior development worship at your feet and join your cause" is pretty much at its worst. And Awakening, just revels in silliness and bad dialogue.

Such a fantastic series. If only they could inject better writing. It doesn't even have to be completely serious and dramatic in the way FFT or Tactics Ogre were. Just better.
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
In 7, for instance, the "Hi, nice to meet you, let me instantly without any prior development worship at your feet and join your cause" is pretty much at its worst.
Yeah, that wasn't a thing in FE7, let alone "at its worst". Outside of Karel (which one can consider a sort of secret character a la Gogo in Final Fantasy VI), all of the characters had logical reasons for joining the main cast, usually due to a pre-existing relationship with the character recruiting them (Matthew saving Guy, Priscilla reuniting with her brother Raven, Lyn bringing Rath back to the army, Nino being in a bad spot and...well she knows what the Black Fang will do if they find her so sticking with someone who's fighting against them is a good idea until she can find Jaffar, etc.) and didn't just praise the three main leads (Raven in particular comes to mind). Hell, the three main leads weren't altogether happy about letting former Black Fang members into their ranks, namely the assassin who killed Eliwood's father.

That's one of the problems I have with the "the main character recruits everyone" in the new games: It makes the world feel smaller and its characters less involved in the world when it's all done by the main lead (moreso in Fates since they try to criticize the series tendencies of having random people recruited into your army in the middle of the battlefield but don't do anything about it) instead of attempting to flesh out their relationships outside of the support conversations.
 

GeekyDad

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,689
USA
Yeah, that wasn't a thing in FE7, let alone "at its worst". Outside of Karel (which one can consider a sort of secret character a la Gogo in Final Fantasy VI), all of the characters had logical reasons for joining the main cast, usually due to a pre-existing relationship with the character recruiting them (Matthew saving Guy, Priscilla reuniting with her brother Raven, Lyn bringing Rath back to the army, Nino being in a bad spot and...well she knows what the Black Fang will do if they find her so sticking with someone who's fighting against them is a good idea until she can find Jaffar, etc.) and didn't just praise the three main leads (Raven in particular comes to mind). Hell, the three main leads weren't altogether happy about letting former Black Fang members into their ranks, namely the assassin who killed Eliwood's father.

We're talking about the same game, right? Blazing Blade? 'Cause the game I played (again here recently for the second time just this year alone) had plenty of it, and again, I think it's probably the worst of the many FEs I've played.
 

Sterok

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,085
Sacred Stones did a pretty good job of justifying everyone joining the main group. Helps to have a small cast I suppose.
 

Jadow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,969
So with all the love Hector and Lyn (RIP Eliwood) have been getting in Fire Emblem Heroes, do you guys think IS will remake FE7? I know there are still some games that never made it to the west, but I wonder if IS may prioritize them over FE7
 

NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,336
So with all the love Hector and Lyn (RIP Eliwood) have been getting in Fire Emblem Heroes, do you guys think IS will remake FE7? I know there are still some games that never made it to the west, but I wonder if IS may prioritize them over FE7
If they skip FE4 it will probably be FE6 instead since that was the game they mentione they wanted to remade in a recent interview
 

TwinBahamut

Member
Jun 8, 2018
1,360
He was just generically heroic in the original games. Shadow Dragon pushes the idea that Marth puts on a tough and charismatic front for the people but opens up to Nina and Jeigan, showing his weakness. The issue is that due to him basically only interacting with Nina throughout the story, outside of about two scenes and recruitment conversations, it really doesn't seem like he keeps anything to himself and he's often lamenting about the tragedy of war to Nina. The game really needed a larger cast with actual story roles to make that work. There's also that one scene where he talks about how he hates the enemies that attacked his homeland, but he has to put it behind him since they're just people too, although it's basically just one scene, rather than an actual running plotline.

Then New Mystery has him as this idealistic lord that gathers people around him due to his purity and ideal image, and can get far due to the support of everyone around him, rather than personal strength and strong rule (the game compares him with Anri who was more based on personal strength). This characterization also seems to have been pushed from then on, which is why his upgrade in Heroes was support based. I'm not sure it was a good choice, especially when other lords are pushed as both incomparably strong and great leaders too.
I honestly really like Marth's portrayal in Shadow Dragon, because it comes across so well in gameplay. He's not a strong frontline fighter, but he is always busy. He's constantly recruiting people, managing the convoy, organizing the defense of villages, and opening chests, and the army is so reliant on him doing these things that him taking a minute to fight himself can slow everything down. He is a prince adept at logistics and diplomacy who has been caught up in a battle out of his depth due to his heritage. If it wasn't for Anri and the Falchion, he would've fit in better in a supporting role while Hardin rose as the famous war hero, but instead he had to take the hero role.

So, he relies on trusted allies like Merric and Linde to defeat major foes like Gharnef, and really he even needs the support of Tiki to have a good chance at defeating his own nemesis. If he were to draw too close to Camus on his own it would probably be the end of him. He has clear strengths in which he excels, which makes it clear why everyone depends on him, yet he can't do everything alone and allows other characters to shine. It is a great balance.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
We're talking about the same game, right? Blazing Blade? 'Cause the game I played (again here recently for the second time just this year alone) had plenty of it, and again, I think it's probably the worst of the many FEs I've played.
I really can't understand how you would say that. Pretty much every character I can think of in FE7 has a good reason for joining the party, usually with those reasons getting further development in supports.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Blazing Blade's cast was very good. I'm really fond of this game, and I feel it was, by far, the best FE title on GBA. There was an attention to details that I didn't find in other titles, quite a lot of paralogues (including alternatives missions altogether!), very likeable cast, in some cases very interesting support conversations that really developed the characters and background of the universe, and I really loved the cutscene artworks they added, helping to convey the mood perfectly (spoilers; also, damn, Eliwood at it rough):
CG09.png


69ba168e9287023204f1265da695de12--fire-emblem-lyn.jpg


CG21.png


CG26.png


CG41.png


CG55.png
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
The only character who one could make an argument for them having no reason to join is Renault i.e. him seeking penance/redemption for his actions, and even that one is tenuous given that he has a history with Nergal.
 

GeekyDad

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,689
USA
I really can't understand how you would say that. Pretty much every character I can think of in FE7 has a good reason for joining the party, usually with those reasons getting further development in supports.

It's not so much the lack of reason as it is how it just instantly happens through a couple of lines of really silly, poorly written dialogue. You don't think the interaction with Dorcus is, like, really abbreviated? Or Serra and Erk? "Let's team up!" :D

Look, I love these games. Absolutely love them. Hooked on them. But the writing is shite. Thankfully, it's not all bad, and in the case of most games -- though the exposition is rushed and awkward -- the stories and characters typically end up growing on you, becoming interesting enough to draw you in.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
It's not so much the lack of reason as it is how it just instantly happens through a couple of lines of really silly, poorly written dialogue. You don't think the interaction with Dorcus is, like, really abbreviated? Or Serra and Erk? "Let's team up!" :D

Look, I love these games. Absolutely love them. Hooked on them. But the writing is shite. Thankfully, it's not all bad, and in the case of most games -- though the exposition is rushed and awkward -- the stories and characters typically end up growing on you, becoming interesting enough to draw you in.
The writing is good though. FE7 does a lot with very limited dialogue. Just because it is simple doesnt mean it isnt effective. I mean Erk and Serra's join scenario is silly...because it's supposed to be silly. Serra is a comic relief character, and her interactions with Erk are supposed to be humorous. It's still logical for them to join up with Lyn's party for survival.

As for Dorcas...no I dont think it's abbreviated. First of all, Dorcas is a man of few words. He says exactly what he needs to and little more. His recruitment involves him attacking or moving in to attack the group, Lyn recognizing him based on Natalie's description, then letting him know that Natalie is inside the fort and they are protecting her. That's all Dorcas needs to know to switch sides, as the only reason he was even fighting with the bandits was for money to take care of her. It is a simple but effective motivation and it is conveyed perfectly clearly by the dialogue. Sometimes less is more.

That's not even getting into the support conversations, which contain most of the best writing in the game. Characters like Geitz, Matthew, Canas, Renault, Bartre, Raven and Lucius, Pent and Louise, all three lords, Farina, Isadora, Heath, Vaida, Legault...they all shine in their supports.
 

Marz

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,796
My special edition of Fates with both conquest and birthright on the cartridge got stolen out of my car:(
 

PK Gaming

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,331
FE7's writing is pretty good despite the dumb plot contrivances and weak worldbuilding (it really shines when it comes to characters). The script on the other hand, is pretty mediocre by modern standards. Like I know it was their first outing at translating an FE game, but you can tell the localizers really struggled here. The large amount of logical and grammar errors on top of the generally the stiff dialogue is really noticeable.

Wil x Raven's support kind of stands out. You can tell they had no idea how to translate suffixes, lmao
 
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Drax

Oregon tag
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,083
Tbh, reason I hate Fe7 translation is that sword fighters to myrmidons makes zero sense.