But they are still under the shadow of the remaining sector 6 plate which could then fall on them.
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Final Fantasy VII Remake Spoilers Thread, Part 2: Stay Kalm & Mosey Along (UPDATE: Ultimania’s list of four key story changes)
- Thread starter Quinton
- Start date
Yeah this is weird, lol. You are saying the plate on the right is sector 7, that should be gone? Hmm. i guess this is implying that Cloud and Zack (or maybe just Zack) stopped the pillar from falling.It's what i thought but some people told me otherwise.
So it's safe to assume Zack and Cloud helped defend the pillar at the end of Remake right? Hence Biggs is alive, maybe Jessie as well that's why you see the gloves at the end, if one of the white sparkles at the end is her Dad and she wakes up, she may quit Avalanche and go back to Gold saucer like everyone wants her to.
Crazy Theory time: Without ghosts to interfere, Cloud actually kills both Reno and Rude, making it easier to defend the pillar. When they set out to go after Sephiroth, Cloud's state of mind is even worse than our current timeline.
Of course something like this ain't happening.
Maybe:
(a) the pillar was saved in an alternate timeline, or
(b) the pillar was saved in the same-timeline, and history just changed. Now the party will return to Midgar and be confused, "Why is Sector 7 still there?"
This still doesn't answer why the sector 7 sign is broken, but I guess this could have broken in all the fighting.
Yeah, there were choppers crashing, stuff exploding, remember Aerith going to find Marlene? But yeah that's Sector 7 plate still standing there.
Look at the image below: Sector 6 is the only one damaged, same as the one Marle is under.
How sector 7 is supposed to look like after plate fall:
Edit: It's why Biggs, and probably Jessie and Wedge are alive at the end of the remake, but they are on the other timeline.
It's what i thought but some people told me otherwise.
So it's safe to assume Zack and Cloud helped defend the pillar at the end of Remake right? Hence Biggs is alive, maybe Jessie as well that's why you see the gloves at the end, if one of the white sparkles at the end is her Dad and she wakes up, she may quit Avalanche and go back to Gold saucer like everyone wants her to.
Crazy Theory time: Without ghosts to interfere, Cloud actually kills both Reno and Rude, making it easier to defend the pillar. When they set out to go after Sephiroth, Cloud's state of mind is even worse than our current timeline.
Of course something like this ain't happening.
Hmm so that's why I felt something is off there with the plate :P
Actually after the chase from the Shinra HQ, do we know which section of Midgar they end up at? Maybe someone can open the map in ch 18 and check the midgar map there lol
Maybe after beating Sephiroth their current timeline did change and they just never saw sector 7 when they left haha
This is the best i could come up with. If you look to the left of 7, it looks like there's no plate there. Impossible to know for sure.
Yeah I thought it looks like it, but I went and checked the ending again and when Zack carries Cloud into Midgar it seems like it's the same one. Maybe they forgot to swap the model lol
*oops you edited your post, let me know if I should edit out mine* anyway it's nice to speculate stuff xD
Actually....
So from the view we have of our party at the end it's impossible to tell. So that's probably why there's no change from the Zack scene.
I edit my message out, cause i went to check on something, it looks like the skybox ingame has a different look than pre-rendered cutscenes. If you go back to the Cutscene of the plate fall, The outer wall is still there and there's more stuff beyond it as well that doesn't suffer any damage from the event.Yeah I thought it looks like it, but I went and checked the ending again and when Zack carries Cloud into Midgar it seems like it's the same one. Maybe they forgot to swap the model lol
So from the view we have of our party at the end it's impossible to tell. So that's probably why there's no change from the Zack scene.
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I consider it key that when Barret hopes that Biggs and Jessie are alive, Cloud repeatedly says they were in pretty bad condition when last he saw them — rather than... dead. That struck me as a Chekov's Gun of sorts and it's why Biggs being alive in the ending sequence didn't surprise me.
It's also why I don't personally subscribe to the belief that Biggs' survival (and potentially Jessie's as well) has anything to do with Zack/timeline shenanigans. Though I wouldn't be shocked if there's an element of convolution here wherein we eventually learn that part of the reason for that survival involves "echoes of the will of hope reverberating across different timelines" or something else equally vague, which frustrates fans further in the years to come. lol
It's also why I don't personally subscribe to the belief that Biggs' survival (and potentially Jessie's as well) has anything to do with Zack/timeline shenanigans. Though I wouldn't be shocked if there's an element of convolution here wherein we eventually learn that part of the reason for that survival involves "echoes of the will of hope reverberating across different timelines" or something else equally vague, which frustrates fans further in the years to come. lol
LOL.
I think Nojima has lost it a little but that would be going too far even for him.
This worked extremely well due to the entire thing. The build up from the first two segments is really important for when the OG segment drops. They had a really good variety of ways of remixing the tracks in this game.
There was discussion a while back about how Cloud supposedly read Tifa's mind (through the JENOVA cells in his body) when she found him at the sector 7 train station, right? Funny thing I just noticed... After completing the delta level lock right before the Airbuster fight, Tifa comments on how well coordinated they were, saying it was as if Cloud read her mind. Then she asked if he could do that, to which he joked that he couldn't yet. Hmm. 🤔
Just barging in here to ask if anyone has any theories of what the whole deal with that Aerith/Marlene scene was when Aerith comes to her rescue right before the plate falls. It looks to me like they both become aware of something as soon as they make physical contact. Could it be that Marlene is also Cetra or something to that effect?
Nah, it's more like what Aerith did to Red.
She showed Marlene something to calm her down.
Marlene is not a Cetra. Thing is Aerith can transfer memories or knowledge somehow to others, it's the same thing he does later with Red XIII, where he himself says he learned knowledge when Aerith touched him.
So I finished the game and now I finally understand that I understood nothing and why every other person goes "WTF?!". I will have to consume this thread and the previous one to assemble the fragments to what might be the most likely picture to come.
On top of my head, I found the most interesting part about the ending the one where Sephiroth actuallly starts talking to Cloud in the Edge of Creation. It appears Sephiroth has accessed the debug room of the original and is now restarting the OG FF7 as FF7Re. For some reason he wants to change the course of destiny, so he appears in places he shouldn't have in the original to influence Cloud and the others. He's basically causing ripples in the course of destiny, which forces the plot ghosts to appear and (try to) flaten things out, so that the will of destiny's normal course remain intact.
Looking at it in a really simplistic way, I'd say they didn't retcon FF7 but rather CC. The dramatic ending of CC didn't happen, but the quick and brutal finish in the original could still happen. Maybe there are no alternate timelines, and it's all just for show. I don't know, I have to read more and think about it. :)
Good game (spent 74h with it). My favourite part is the end of Ch.08. The swelling emotions in that parting scene was real.
On top of my head, I found the most interesting part about the ending the one where Sephiroth actuallly starts talking to Cloud in the Edge of Creation. It appears Sephiroth has accessed the debug room of the original and is now restarting the OG FF7 as FF7Re. For some reason he wants to change the course of destiny, so he appears in places he shouldn't have in the original to influence Cloud and the others. He's basically causing ripples in the course of destiny, which forces the plot ghosts to appear and (try to) flaten things out, so that the will of destiny's normal course remain intact.
Looking at it in a really simplistic way, I'd say they didn't retcon FF7 but rather CC. The dramatic ending of CC didn't happen, but the quick and brutal finish in the original could still happen. Maybe there are no alternate timelines, and it's all just for show. I don't know, I have to read more and think about it. :)
Good game (spent 74h with it). My favourite part is the end of Ch.08. The swelling emotions in that parting scene was real.
Wouldn't surprise me if the Cetra could transfer their "Cetra" status to a worthy normal person, so that they would become a Cetra.
If that was the case Aerith wouldn't be the last of the Cetra.
I'm pretty much convinced this is what they did. Either that or:
- The final cutscenes show the "Zack didn't die in the struggle" timeline and the plate-fall aftermath of that scenario.
- Biggs & maybe Jessie were retroactively revived in the same timeline as us, because removing the ghosts across 'all points in time' retroactively nullified certain developments we saw happening in the plot. Go back the furthest you can to ask yourself "so what if the Ghosts did not stop this" and think about just how many parts of the story could change, not completely, but slightly, but without affecting Cloud/Co. because they were stuck in the singularity as the ghosts were being killed in 'reality'.
Last trick I think they might be doing is, if you consider what happened when we entered the singularity, remember how at first Cloud and Co. went through only to arrive at the same road in Midgar? I think they just stepped into the "Remake" timeline, and that's what we will follow from here on out. Then, the visage of Zack surviving and other things, maybe also BIggs surviving is everything that we left in another timeline. Then at the end of the final part of remake, the reward for saving the world in the new timeline is that we can go back to the timeline when everything was basically saved earlier on. Idk, just ideas.
We don't know why Cetra stopped existing. We know they can mate with regular humans and produce offspring who share their connection to the planet. Did regular humans exist during the time of Cetra? If not, where did they come from? Did Cetra powers fade and they just became regular humans? What was the cause of their fading powers?. All these questions are unanswered in any of the lore released across the compilation. Until then, whether or not Aerith is the last of the Cetra, or can she imbue someone with the powers of the Cetra, is left up to speculation and leave the writers plenty of room to do what they want.
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I actually agree with a great deal of this. Especially the bits about how defeating the ghosts may have removed them from the equation retroactively in all the key scenes from beforehand, and how if Jessie's alive we will encounter her at the Gold Saucer!
Your scenario 2 is interesting but that could therefore mean rude and Reno are dead, either cuz of stopping the plate from falling or Cloud laid his buster sword in him at the church (but maybe Aerith stooped him...)
It's what i thought but some people told me otherwise.
So it's safe to assume Zack and Cloud helped defend the pillar at the end of Remake right? Hence Biggs is alive, maybe Jessie as well that's why you see the gloves at the end, if one of the white sparkles at the end is her Dad and she wakes up, she may quit Avalanche and go back to Gold saucer like everyone wants her to.
I'm honestly a bit lost here. Why would Zack and Cloud be there to defend the pillar if Cloud is at the end of the Midgar highway? It's impossible to know how Biggs survived. SE just wants to confuse people lol. As for Zack... he hasn't even reached Midgar yet when he survives in the other timeline..... right?
IIRC she even yells to stop as is, and maybe he would've reacted.
But considering that he wouldn't even have met Aerith in the opening, consider that the whole scene would play out differently. They might've spent more time getting to know each other and talked about different things.
This is the "Unknown Journey". A lot of things simply changed off screen though the overall scenario is the same. It doesn't take away what we saw, so long as they make sure to point out, if this is the case, that things changed from how we remembered it in Part 2.
Questions like this are why I hope the Zack stuff is in a different timeline. It gets way to convoluted when you start to dig into the causality behind what the whispers did and didn't stop.
Zack living is a single point of divergence you can expound on, makes for much cleaner storytelling, IMO.
Feasibly they cannot do that without beginning to contradict themselves at some point, or beg the question of "Okay but WHY did them not being here cause this to NOT happen as it did in OG FFVII?" beyond just "Sephiroth changed one thing".
They better just say "Okay these general things changed, Cloud points it out (like Jessie not being at Midgar)" and then the narrative explains how that thing is changed, in a way that both informs Part 1 players of the continuity and informs Part 2 new players who those character are, and it refocuses them on the Part 2 part of their story.
And then hopefully Part 2 stays away from pulling another twist that repositions everything at the end.
"A New Era"
Did he go out and make these coins to flip around at Cloud like right after his dad died?
Nah, he had a bunch done in advance, if the occasion ever came up. I mean, old man would've kicked the bucket up at some point.
Rufus has been actively attempting to depose his father, and was working with the Avalanche cell that tried to kill him.
Honestly, replaying the original FF7, everything concerning Jenova and Sephiroth is pretty convoluted in itself, so the timeline shenanigans is just par for the course for the IP.
It wouldn't surprise me that Aerith is capable of designating people as Aerith-clones like Sephiroth has Sephiroth-clones to do his (or Jenova's?) bidding in the original.
It wouldn't surprise me that Aerith is capable of designating people as Aerith-clones like Sephiroth has Sephiroth-clones to do his (or Jenova's?) bidding in the original.
Jenova is based on the Thing.
That's why it can copy knowledge, shapeshift and mimic things hence Sephiroth's cells turning others into Sephiroth-Clones. And Sephiroth was able to overpower Jenova's will so Jenova follows him now.
This is also one reason why Cloud has a fake persona for most of the game. The Jenova Cells in his body just imitated Zack and Tifa's memory of Cloud because Zack's death was the final straw that shattered his true personality and so Jenova just created a new personality for him.
The convoluted part is how the story presents that information to you so it comes off as quite confusing.
I am replying the remake for a third time and I realized that that the timeline between Zack's last stand and Cloud meeting Tifa is radical different from the OG. From the in game conversations she seems to only have met him like the day prior and immediately roped him into the mission with Avalanche. She knows he arrived in sector 7 slums with no luggage and would need a place to stay right after the mission. From in game text there doesn't seem to be any delay from Tifa meeting Cloud and him going on the 1st mission
More support for the theory that events have been pushed up.
Isn't this what happened in the OG?
There's a month or two between Zack's Last Stand and when Tifa meets Cloud wandering the Sector 7 Slums.
She offers him the Avalanche job so he wouldn't leave her yet and so she could watch over him.
I remember it felt like she nursed him back to health for a week or two then the bombing mission takes place.
I don't think that happened , Do you have any source for this?
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy_VII_timeline#0007
I used this link to confirm my memories but it could be incorrect. I guess I would have to play the OG again for true confirmation.
Do you think this will affect Remake in a big way? Or it's just another detail they change for convenience/flavour?
I honestly don't know why would they pushed-up the timeline. Like what's the end goal here.
I don't know, it's one of the many things that could just be flavor changes or what we think we know about the game is wrong and it will have a big effect in the future. I am noticing lots of stuff as I play through and I feel less confident about any particular interpretation then I did a few weeks ago after beating it the 1st time and reading all the theory crafting.
Speaking of the original.... I actually never did platinum it. That's a good excuse to replay it again in a few months. Right now I need a break though since I finished remake 100% + the playlog.... the excitement was too much. Next i'm going to play Persona 5 Royal and Xenoblade chronicles DE... more long JRPGS so i'm going to be quite busy! Can't wait to hear the first details about part 2... hopefully we wont have to wait until next year D:
I hope it's for flavour only.
I'm not ready if all these random changes (outside of changes caused by whispers) is to imply that this remake timeline is alternative timeline all along. Imagine if Sephiroth isn't traveling back in time, but jumping to another timeline to where he has hope to win. And Zack lives is actually the OG timeline. Nah, my small brain cells aren't ready for this.
Or that he has been affecting things for a while before the start of the game and the Whispers are now intervening because of the ripples in the timeline have become too large and the OG future is in jeopardy.
In September, Zack dies:
The timeline says this happened on Dec 5:
There is no indication here how long Tifa was with him, or if she nursed him to health.
Hmm the Tifa finding Cloud entry is the last bullet point in the October section when I view the website. Then the December entries start. It may just be the mobile version of the website is skewing the dates, lol.
Really? That's one of the most memorable moments in the whole game for me.