Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
like it's not taxpayer money but then the question is raised

why do goverments need to use taxpayer money at all if this is the case

they seem to control inflation while printing money just fine
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
like it's not taxpayer money but then the question is raised

why do goverments need to use taxpayer money at all if this is the case

they seem to control inflation while printing money just fine
This money is coming back. It's a temporary cash infusion that will be paid back within months.

Permanently adding trillions of dollars into circulation every year would cause hyperinflation.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
It's moving money around, not spending it

This money is coming back. It's a temporary cash infusion that will be paid back within months.

i know that

see my earlier posts on why this is an important example of the consequences of global fiance capital superseding political structures

the issue is that the barriers upon what ways you can and can't move money around without incurring the wrath of inflation are a constructed political definition and not a functional technocratic one. The "fed mandate" is a giant gong show designed to disguise how at the end of the day finance capitalism is all "moving money around" buoyed by american power underpinning global commerce.
 

Shadowstew

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
173
business-simulator-print-money.png
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
i know that

see my earlier posts on why this is an important example of the consequences of global fiance capital superseding political structures

the issue is that the barriers upon what ways you can and can't move money around without incurring the wrath of inflation are a constructed political definition and not a functional technocratic one. The "fed mandate" is a giant gong show designed to disguise how at the end of the day finance capitalism is all "moving money around" buoyed by american power underpinning global commerce.
If you think the government could control inflation whilst pumping additional trillions of new dollars into circulation every year, I don't know what to say. That's more than moving money around, that's permanently creating new money -- devaluing the dollar at an exponential rate, snowballing out of control.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
i know that

see my earlier posts on why this is an important example of the consequences of global fiance capital superseding political structures

the issue is that the barriers upon what ways you can and can't move money around without incurring the wrath of inflation are a constructed political definition and not a functional technocratic one. The "fed mandate" is a giant gong show designed to disguise how at the end of the day finance capitalism is all "moving money around" buoyed by american power underpinning global commerce.
The reason inflation has crashed through the floor isn't that inflation isn't real, it's that everyone is turning into Japan because crashing birthrates have radically altered inflationary pressures in the economy. Things that we once thought were hard and fast rules are turning out to not be hard and fast rules because unbeknownst to people at the time, they were based on specific circumstances that no longer hold true.

Capitalism is not "moving money around", the money is a medium that allows indirect trade of goods and services. When the velocity of money slows down, the effective amount of money moving in the system goes down as a result, and in situations where this happens, more money is inserted to make up for it by adjusting the other side of the multiplier. If you have $5 passing 5 times in a day, and it slows to passing 4 times, adding an extra dollar temporarily helps compensate for that missing exchange.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
The reason inflation has crashed through the floor isn't that inflation isn't real, it's that everyone is turning into Japan because crashing birthrates have radically altered inflationary pressures in the economy. Things that we once thought were hard and fast rules are turning out to not be hard and fast rules because unbeknownst to people at the time, they were based on specific circumstances that no longer hold true.

Capitalism is not "moving money around", the money is a medium that allows indirect trade of goods and services. When the velocity of money slows down, the effective amount of money moving in the system goes down as a result, and in situations where this happens, more money is inserted to make up for it by adjusting the other side of the multiplier. If you have $5 passing 5 times in a day, and it slows to passing 4 times, adding an extra dollar temporarily helps compensate for that missing exchange.

kirb you're going to have to come at me with more then undergrad heteodox macro if you want me to take you seriously on structural economic critiques
 

ftchrs

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
276
This can't be considered good news. If anything it shows the economy is even weaker than expected. Coronavirus isn't the only problem here. It's just the pin that burst the bubble.

Just to add to the discussion—the US real economy has been in rude health in recent years (in aggregate terms—the distribution of wealth and income has been awful and detrimental to growth, but that's a separate issue). The trouble is that the economy hasn't quite been the same since the financial crisis. Economists aren't sure whether this is due to lingering effects of the financial crisis or longer-term changes to the structure of the economy (population ageing, economic globalization and, ironically, perhaps too much success in policies that have kept inflation low). Whatever the case, this had led to a new, uncomfortable situation where the economy has been doing well, but the Fed hasn't been able to replenish its traditional ammunition for fighting off recessions. This is why they're going all-in right from the start here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
my point wasn't about demography. It was your characterization of the role of money circulation in the creation of economic value, while true in the "real economy" does not cross-apply irt value creation though finance capitalism.


yes japan is an important canary in the coal mine for demographic crises under capitalism but that's totally besides the point
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
not demography, your characterization of the role of money circulation in the creation of economic value, it's true in the "real economy" but not irt value creation though finance capitalism/


yes japan is an important canary in the coal mine for democratic crises under capitalism but that's totally besides the point
Money circulating doesn't create economic value on its own, money being able to circulate allows for the trades to occur that create economic value. If there's not enough money to facilitate the trades, things lock up. This is basic stuff.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
Money circulating doesn't create economic value on its own, money being able to circulate allows for the trades to occur that create economic value. If there's not enough money to facilitate the trades, things lock up. This is basic stuff.
yes it is basic stuff

that's my point

it's a inaccurate generalization that gets made in undergrad heterodox macroeconomics

the financialization of domestic economies has fundamentally shifted how the value creation of finance functionally operates in the context of the global political economy

money is not just an inert medium
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
yes it is basic stuff

that's my point

it's a inaccurate generalization that gets made in undergrad heterodox macroeconomics

the financialization of domestic economies has fundamentally shifted how the value creation of finance functionally operates in the context of the global political economy

money is not just an inert medium
...do you mean orthodox?
 

Chrome Hyena

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,780
Lol wow hilarious. This is why "how will we pay for it" is a dumb ass argument. And look at that it did Jack shit.
 

BreakyBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,039
get hung up on the jargon if you want my point still stands

this isn't an exam

I wanted to pop in at least to say that I appreciate the attempt to actually engage with the thread topic, even if it is in the abstract. At least there's something to be learned from the discussion here.

I will also say that I was confused by your use of "heterodox" as well since it made what you were arguing for unclear. Specifically, it seemed that you were arguing against orthodox/widely-held views about the financial system, while saying that Kirblar was espousing the non-standard/heterodox opinion. Which was confusing, as someone that isn't an econ major.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
I wanted to pop in at least to say that I appreciate the attempt to actually engage with the thread topic, even if it is in the abstract. At least there's something to be learned from the discussion here.

I will also say that I was confused by your use of "heterodox" as well since it made what you were arguing for unclear. Specifically, it seemed that you were arguing against orthodox/widely-held views about the financial system, while saying that Kirblar was espousing the non-standard/heterodox opinion. Which was confusing, as someone that isn't an econ major.
that's true but as an economist i would expect him to recognize that it was a slip in an overall cohesive argument

i'll admit that coming from a marxist perspective i use heteodox to dismissively refer to neo-keyensian economics .

now i guess i have been reminded that it is not technically correct since apparently the terms are set up to encompass all of the different fields, making political economy considered heterodox economics
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,055
Do you think this is a good counterpoint to their point of "we need to use this money to treat and test for this disease?"

I didn't even want to touch on the point about testing as if that's the fed's job.

The fed is doing its job by injecting liquidity, which you can argue the Trump admin isn't vis a vis testing

The side tangent about not using the money to do something else instead is irrelevant as that money is going to go back into the federal reserve. It's just sloshing money around.

And that really isn't why I responded to the post. The cheerleading for loss of billions is why I responded. It's not just Americans that took a hit, and they are really immature to be even in that headspace.
 

ftchrs

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
276
get hung up on the jargon if you want my point still stands

this isn't an exam

I will also say that I was confused by your use of "heterodox" as well since it made what you were arguing for unclear. Specifically, it seemed that you were arguing against orthodox/widely-held views about the financial system, while saying that Kirblar was espousing the non-standard/heterodox opinion. Which was confusing, as someone that isn't an econ major.

I too have appreciated the back and forth in this thread and was confused by this.

However, Kirblar went out of his way to look for a BIS paper to refute the claim that his position about inflation dynamics was heterodox. Given the confusion, I expected an honest—and not a snide—response to the inevitable question:

...do you mean orthodox?
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I didn't even want to touch on your point about testing as if that's the fed's job.

The fed is doing its job by injecting liquidity, which you can argue the Trump admin isn't vis a vis testing

Yours and others side tangent about not using the money to do something else instead is irrelevant as that money is going to go back into the federal reserve. It's just sloshing money around.

And that really isn't why I responded to your post. Your cheerleading for loss of billions is why I responded. It's not just Americans that took a hit, and you are really immature to be even in that headspace. Grow up

The problem is about priorities. The fact there is immediate money to inject into the market and not to help people suffering from this disease is telling.

As far as your point about Canadians suffering, I don't see what has that to do with anything. I'm sorry you think that it's immature to be more concerned about the health crisis than the economic crisis. Especially considering the latter is almost completely stemming from the former.

Telling me to grow up while accusing me of doing something I didn't do. Maybe you should read.

No the US is a joke. That's completely true.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,055
The problem is about priorities. The fact there is immediate money to inject into the market and not to help people suffering from this disease is telling.

As far as your point about Canadians suffering, I don't see what has that to do with anything. I'm sorry you think that it's immature to be more concerned about the health crisis than the economic crisis. Especially considering the latter is almost completely stemming from the former.

Telling me to grow up while accusing me of doing something I didn't do. Maybe you should read.

I went back and edited my post because it doesn't look like you were the person I originally quoted but that's fine if you want to own their mindset.

I'll say it again to you now, Grow up. Also everyone invests in the US markets. Not just Canadians.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,535
It's odd how Republicans are fine with socialism for corporations, but not people.
 
Oct 28, 2018
573
Not surprised by this whatsoever. This isn't the government "spending" this money btw, it's more akin to a temporary loan to encourage banks to take and give short-term loans to keep the economy and financial markets working. It's just to assuage panic, nothing more. In the end it'll all be paid back, not a fan of all the people equating this to money that would be spent on healthcare or forgiving student loan debt.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I went back and edited my post because it doesn't look like you were the person I originally quoted but that's fine if you want to own their mindset.

I'll say it again to you now, Grow up. Also everyone invests in the US markets. Not just Canadians.

If you tell me to grow up one more time for no goddamn reason I swear to god I'm going to fucking shout so loudly you'll hear it from the fucking Yukon. Take your shaming attitude and realize that most people in the goddamn world do not invest in the stock market and I'm trying to urge the use of money to help people suffering from this damn disease. You may not agree with it, you may say "that's not what this money is for". I DO NOT CARE.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
[/QUOTE]
I too have appreciated the back and forth in this thread and was confused by this.

However, Kirblar went out of his way to look for a BIS paper to refute the claim that his position about inflation dynamics was heterodox. Given the confusion, I expected an honest—and not a snide—response to the inevitable question:

...do you mean orthodox?
i was never talking about the paper because i was never talking about the relationship between demographic trends and inflation.

my comment about undergrad heterodox econ would also cross apply to orthodox economic theory in so far as some (post-keynesian) fields considered heterodox economics have a limited definition of how the transactions of modern finance capital functionally create economic value. I understand the confusion though, i cleared it up in an above post

the operative part of the label was "undergrad" because it was in reference to the simplicity of the explanation of how money functions, ignoring how the development of a mature global finance economy has challenged the rather limited explanation kirb gave. there was probably a better way to make that point

my only real point, which we are now very far from, is that the fed's liquidity bumps are differentiated from other forms of state intervention only in so far as people in power continue to not acknowledge that these definitions are politically (and thus socially) constructed and are not technocratic realities that we have to operate under

there is a very reasonable case to be made that the united states is not anywhere near the ceiling on the extent to which it can create real value through debt. This is (allegedly) because its expansion is already one of the core operating dynamics on which value creation the current global political economy is predicated (i.e. acting as a first mover in increasing the circulation of captial between the us, china, japan, and the euromarkets)
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,636
I said it before I like Bernie's policies. I dislike the man.
He is a stubborn old coot and the epitome of perfection being the enemy of good.

lol. The Left itself isn't going to be anymore "likable" for you with Bernie gone. Bernie's what happens when someone firmly left spends decades actually making the occasional concession. The rest of them are younger and less willing to do so, and going to be WAY more in your face about it, so I'm not sure this gets better for you.

Yep. I always get annoyed by these "I'm an economist and you should shut up" analyses because people's gut reaction is actually correct: it demonstrates that the free market isn't real, and can only benefit people under the presumption that it will constantly improve, which doesn't fit nicely into the reality we experience. It also demonstrates that we could will into existence the solutions to a lot of our country's problems, because the only thing holding us back is the morality of the individuals deciding what we do and don't act on.

Yeah, but being WRONG about why we can fix things isn't going to help either.
 

meowdi gras

Banned
Feb 24, 2018
12,679
So is this like Monopoly, where the bank runs out of money, so you have to temporarily issue little slips of paper with the dollar amounts written on them, so that the players can continue with the game?
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,249
I don't understand the sentiment of spamming info about the fed mandate tirelessly. People screaming that the fed is duty bound to keep the economy alive is not going to really help calm people when the government which the fed is still technically a part of is not going to bat for its citizens, which are increasingly getting sicker by the day in addition to a bunch of socioeconomic problems y'all debate on here everyday. There's a conversation to be had here, and it's puzzling that people want to double down on the FED mandate being in a vacuum when the governments actions here don't belong in one.

Because it's pointing the gun at the wrong target. And is an off base response to the topic at hand. If people learned the system better, they would be better equipped to critique it, and hopefully arrive at better solutions.

I don't think any of the folks explaining the Fed, nor its mandate, are lost on any of the righteous anger that fuels many of these pithy responses.
 
Oct 28, 2018
573
So is this like Monopoly, where the bank runs out of money, so you have to temporarily issue little slips of paper with the dollar amounts written on them, so that the players can continue with the game?

The banks in this situation are not out of money. They just don't want to lend their money out. So the Fed gives them money to lend out.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,636
So is this like Monopoly, where the bank runs out of money, so you have to temporarily issue little slips of paper with the dollar amounts written on them, so that the players can continue with the game?

I could be misunderstanding all this, but I think this is more like...you went and got another Monopoly game in your house to add money to the game so it could finish.

...But when the game is finished, that money still has to go back to the other game.
 
Nov 21, 2017
1,787
Edit: Nvm. I watched this to remind myself how the fed works: https://youtu.be/1dq7mMort9o

————

Can someone shed some more light on how exactly this money is "injected" into the market? The article is paywalled, but the first few sentences say loans will be made available and Treasury securities will be purchased.

So to whom are loans being made to? Who chooses who qualifies for a loan? What are the interest rates on these loans? And the time scale at which they are paid back?

And what's the deal with the Treasury securities? Is the fed just printing money to buy government securities? Isn't that like your left hand trying to pay off your right hand with Monopoly money? How does that help?

Can some Econ major please ELI5
 
Last edited:

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Because it's pointing the gun at the wrong target. And is an off base response to the topic at hand. If people learned the system better, they would be better equipped to critique it, and hopefully arrive at better solutions.

I don't think any of the folks explaining the Fed, nor its mandate, are lost on any of the righteous anger that fuels many of these pithy responses.

Capitalism is a hell of a drug. Pithy responses indeed.

The banks in this situation are not out of money. They just don't want to lend their money out. So the Fed gives them money to lend out.

Oh those poor banks. They've always had our back!
 

Meatfist

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,303
This whole thread is making me miss AP Econ from high school - the Fed is so fascinating and misunderstood
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
They just dont get it. This isnt a normal stock market crash. It is due to a pandemic. What's needed is this kind of money provided to businesses to pay for sick leave.

Contain the virus and keep businesses afloat while the PMI craters temporarily. The goal is to make it temporary. We could have a vaccine and be back to normal in 8 month if we provided sick leave.