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SpiralEngine

Member
Jul 6, 2023
758
I find all of F.D Signifier's videos on Rap/Hip Hop to be very fascinating, even though I don't listen to that kind of music very often, so I'd been looking forward to this video for a while now. Needless to say, it did not disappoint. It didn't even feel like it was an hour long. Other people in this thread summed it up better than I could, but his analysis on the effects of whiteness and capitalism on culture was on point, I think.

Also, I dunno why, but when he mentioned why his kids weren't into rap, I laughed. It must suck though, as a parent, to try to share something meaningful to you with your kids, only for them to bounce off of it.

never ceases to make me laugh
source:
1NDKLdv.png

Holy shit, I had no idea the person who said this was CliffyB. That's hilarious.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
28,457
You think the kids are leaving hip hop behind? I don't know about that

I mean granted, my access to children is limited (obviously), but from what I've seen and the kids I've talked to... yeah.

Or at the very least, hiphop isn't the cultural cornerstone that it was for me.
 
Oct 28, 2017
29,892
I liked this video but battle rap is such an niche (that I really don't like) It is hard to see the comparison he's making.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,072
I suggest that if you love hip-hop, you should be spending more time on the love of the art form than the parts of it that you hate, if you want the love of the art form to be the thing that's still here when the dust settles.

Real, and not just about hip-hop, but everything in art. The internet is far too good at doing exactly the opposite.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,060
given the summaries and reactions in this thread, I have the suspicion I'm going to disagree a lot with what he says. gonna at least consume the major points before responding

don't know if he covered 8 mile at all but I always laugh how the major purity testing of authenticity in the film, and how Eminem defeats the opposition, is pointing out how Clarence was raised middle class with both parents lmao

Anyway, white folks love a story where the white main is a minority or outcast within a culture, but still rises to the top through inherent meritocracy and determination. And a lot of Eminem fans who aren't really hip hop fans still hold on to him being one of the greats even though they have little knowledge of much of the culture beyond his music.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,114
Gentrified Brooklyn
Gonna dive in. There's fantastic MC's that cross race/gender/sexuality but there's been a run that while talented clearly don't take the artform seriously: BLP Kosher, Little Dicky (although his show has done much to redeem his career). Like you can't tell me Lil Mabu isn't racist as fuck.

On top of how there's a long history of artists who tend to use Black music in general as a way into a career and pivot and talk about their time in hip-hop or serious r&b as if it was a weird phase once they've made it.
 
Dec 17, 2022
1,928
37 minutes in and no mention of Action Bronson?

Looking forward to the section on Mac Miller (if there is one). I actually enjoy his albums.

Edit: I disagree with his "Why is he a goat?" assessment of Mac. Not everyone listens to hip-hop with the intent to build a deck of GOAT artists, to counter someone else's list in music-peen measuring… like so much Rap YugiOh. Sometimes you just like what you like… I enjoy Mac's "S.D.S." as much as I enjoy Mos' "Black on Both Sides" or JID's "Off the Zoinkys".
 
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IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,208
Vice City
oh man, the casual hip hop crowd here would have a bit to reckon with on this one, love dude
curious if the source/benzino shit comes up at all? not sure it'd tie in but listening soon

also the idea that em is/was the only decent white rapper is pretty funny given how many there's been since the beastie boys

37 minutes in and no mention of Action Bronson

as a fan of bronson in his time: after the dressing down ghostface gave him it's prolly best to move on

And a lot of Eminem fans who aren't really hip hop fans still hold on to him being one of the greats even though they have little knowledge of much of the culture beyond his music.

yeah no lies here
 
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Bengraven

Powered by Friendship™
Member
Oct 26, 2017
31,087
Florida
I've been reflecting on Eminem a lot since the last thread and the more I think of it, I had already come to the conclusion he became so successful and heavily awarded due to being white.

And I do think it's caused damage to hip-hop as a whole. The "Eminem is the only rapper allowed on rock stations" thing really hit the truth of predominantly white communities
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,784
Australia
I always enjoy FD's videos, they're very educational for a non-American while always being extremely engaging.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,638
I always enjoy FD's videos, they're very educational for a non-American while always being extremely engaging.

He really is so good. He did a video on Football and how a position is going away because of certain factors and I watched the whole damn thing lol. I don't even watch Football.
 
Dec 17, 2022
1,928
as a fan of bronson in his time: after the dressing down ghostface gave him it's prolly best to move on
I was hoping FD would bring that up 😂

As a longtime Starks fan, I admit to still listening to "Blue Chips 7000" every now and then… but I refuse to watch his food show.

Also, first time I heard Em was on an underground mixtape with B.I.G. in the late 90's. Em always got a pass from me since it feels like he's always been there. Although currently, I avoid his modern music like the plague.
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,784
Australia
He really is so good. He did a video on Football and how a position is going away because of certain factors and I watched the whole damn thing lol. I don't even watch Football.

Same deal for me. As an Australian who is as white as you can get (both physically and culturally), anything hip-hop related is well outside my wheelhouse. He just knows how to make you see why this stuff is interesting and why it matters in a larger cultural sense.
 

badatorigami

Member
Dec 5, 2019
499
Does he talk about that dude tom macdonald?
Pops up on my feed every once in a while with the most blatantly right-wing-targeted clickbait music videos.
Edit: nevermind, just noticed that he's in the thumbnail lmao
 
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Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
22,605
Some of these early 80s and 90s rappers that FD managed to just drudge up again are fucking wild. Post-racial rap.... Sure Jan. 🤣
 

Stuntman

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,257
Good video as usual with FD, liked the parallels to Rock and Roll he made throughout the video because i can totally picture in 40 or 50 years from now a white grandpa catching his grandchildren listening to some rap from the future and he going all about "hey kids, let me tell you about how rap started, he was called Eminem..."
 
Oct 28, 2017
29,892
The battle rap part was about what Mook said to Solomon, which kinda establishes the main thesis behind the video.


I get it but I tend to think battle rappers kinda suck as emcees. Mook actually can rhyme but these dudes spitting acapella sound more like slam poetry rather than emcees who flow. His point that it's good for a white guy is lost on me because I come from a place where most of these dudes couldn't hang in a cypher off the top or spit when the beat switch up.


I'm not even sure I agree with the overall premise of the video but I respect what he said and how he said it.
 
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SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,560
I get it but I tend to think battle rappers kinda suck as emcees. Mook actually can rhyme but these dudes spitting acapella sound more like slam poetry rather than emcees who flow. His point that it's good for a white guy is lost on me because I come from a place where most of these dudes couldn't hang in a cypher off the top or spit when the beat switch up.


I'm not even sure I agree with the overall premise of the video but I respect what he said and how he said it.

Ehhhhhh. Lux can rap with anyone. So can Illmaculate, for that matter.

given the summaries and reactions in this thread, I have the suspicion I'm going to disagree a lot with what he says. gonna at least consume the major points before responding

don't know if he covered 8 mile at all but I always laugh how the major purity testing of authenticity in the film, and how Eminem defeats the opposition, is pointing out how Clarence was raised middle class with both parents lmao

In actual BR that would also be used as an angle to destroy the opponent, if that was something he'd been hiding. In fact, that exact angle was used in one of the most famous battle rap rounds of the modern era.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,208
Vice City
chi-ali and killarmy...just go google them 🤣

As a longtime Starks fan, I admit to still listening to "Blue Chips 7000" every now and then… but I refuse to watch his food show.

that's rare chandeliers for me, but i get it!
still puzzling why he went that route. i feel like mr wonderful was doing good, and he'd already had a run in with starks, so why run off at the mouth like that, much less delete an apology tweet?

if years of reading issues of the source as a teen taught me anything, it's not to expect good decisions from a lotta MCs though
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,047
I've been reflecting on Eminem a lot since the last thread and the more I think of it, I had already come to the conclusion he became so successful and heavily awarded due to being white.

And I do think it's caused damage to hip-hop as a whole. The "Eminem is the only rapper allowed on rock stations" thing really hit the truth of predominantly white communities
Eminem is just a amazing artist. I really hate rap but I love a lot of Eminem songs.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,208
Vice City
almost an hour in - f d always connects dots in a way that's refreshing, while reminding me of acts from the day i'd also totally forgotten about (though that post racial white group one i legit never heard back then? feels like something that would've shown up late night on the box at least)

like, i'm paraphrasing but dude sets up the work & intentions of both vanilla ice and slim, and then talks about their whiteness going to work & what that causes. i pictured it being about the way white supremacy hyper focuses on intention vs effect, but he goes beyond even that. i liked the analogy of em's presence behaving like the president's car widening lanes - clear line from that to the fuckery of lil dicky & them (and the 69 shot had me dying, that was spot on)

oh shit mac miller, here we go

Eminem is just a amazing artist. I really hate rap but I love a lot of Eminem songs.

i kinda wanna print this post and frame it
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,060
Eminem is just a amazing artist. I really hate rap but I love a lot of Eminem songs.

lmaoooo

anyway I watched it and I had the exact disconnect with several pillars of his argument that I figured I would. Having vanilla ice and Mac Miller be the before and after comparables for Eminem is tenuous at best, especially since neither ever came anywhere close to his visibility or popularity, and in Miller's case was certainly not influenced by Eminem's style of rap (his lineage is much more in a Kanye West > Kid Cudi emotional/melancholy tree).

the battle rap segment at the end to highlight the punchline that no one would be talking about Mac Miller if he wasn't white is disrespectful as hell, even for some clunky black essentialist comparison to basketball where the current best player in the NBA is a white European. It's fine to have personal opinions, and FD admits Mac Miller's music isn't really for him, but there is no direct bridge built from Eminem's footprint in rap to claiming Mac Miller would just be another dude if he was black. It's a sensationalist claim whose only connective tissue to the main topic is his personal opinion of Mac Miller's raps, and the fact that they're both white. Plenty of white dudes died on the vine in the 10s while Miller made music that reached a very specific and passionate demographic.

Jack Harlow is a much meatier target to throw underneath that bus, but because he's clearly a prodigy of Drake with almost zero DNA of Eminem's style of music and artistry, suppose it's harder to draw that parallel.

Point being Eminem is a unique megastar in hip hop canon. I thought FD would tie a complete knot around the heart of the matter as he kept bringing up the parallels between hardcore rap and metal/punk, inexorably linked by their iconoclastic energy (which he identifies by naming beastie boys and ratm). But he always tails off just enough so that the fact that Eminem was white remains the principal (or only) reason he had crossover appeal. like buddy I quoted up above and FD mentioned as the "I don't like rap but I love Eminem" gang, Eminem's antics and lyrics cut to the heart of turn of the century white angst. He could be the voice for both urban and suburban kids, motherfucking their parents who just didn't understand, and by proxy "the man" as well. He appealed to this wide range of ears, yes because he was white of course, but also because no one at the mainstream level was delivering his discordant energy with such technical ability. He practically existed outside of hip hop, even as a rapper. Perhaps the first huge pop or punk rapper if we want to label it.

It's why it's so easy to see how hip hop culture moved on with little to no stylistic remnants of Eminem's empire. He left an indelible mark in music but certainly not within hip hop itself, which is still a genre for and of the people. It's that fact more than anything that really anybody with a story to tell, even white folks, can try to write a 16. And while Eminem is widely lauded as a living legend and something of a made man in rap, it's curious to me that probably the biggest contemporary artist to carry forth Eminem's legacy is Kendrick Lamar, but he's not even mentioned in the video

But I guess kdot writing black Israelite raps makes that connection tricky to land

Best part of the video was the brief history of rap and naming a bunch of dudes I wasn't aware of, or hadn't heard in a long long time. That was fun
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,047

I'm confused. I'm definitely not the only one that doesn't like rap but loves Eminem. He has a lot of pop songs that are well loved.

He's one of the very few that transcend his genre. That's probably also one of the more conflicting things about Eminem. Someone who loves" Loved the way you lie, Monster, Headlights, Not afraid or his other pop songs might not like his more pure rap songs. And vice versa.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,060
I'm confused. I'm definitely not the only one that doesn't like rap but loves Eminem. He has a lot of pop songs that are well loved.

He's one of the very few that transcend his genre. That's probably also one of the more conflicting things about Eminem. Someone who loves" Loved the way you lie, Monster, Headlights, Not afraid or his other pop songs might not like his more pure rap songs. And vice versa.

the video this thread is about had an entire segment about folks that share your point of view. just funny to see the classics while talking about the classics
 

Kelsdesu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,671
the video this thread is about had an entire segment about folks that share your point of view. just funny to see the classics while talking about the classics
Lmao the literal definition of " Tell me you haven't done the thing(watched the video in OP) without telling me you haven't done the thing (watched the video in the OP)".
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,208
Vice City
welp, guess it's time to check out this marlon craft dude

also man, he named so many pieces that when he was on about failed horrorcore pre em and skipped right past gravediggaz i had made an audible CMON MAN but then i've never looked at how 6 feet deep sold (and never intend to) so, yeah okay point made

Having vanilla ice and Mac Miller be the before and after comparables for Eminem is tenuous at best, especially since neither ever came anywhere close to his visibility or popularity, and in Miller's case was certainly not influenced by Eminem's style of rap (his lineage is much more in a Kanye West > Kid Cudi emotional/melancholy tree).

so yeah, the ye/cudi kinda just post backpacker era (never really sure what to call it, just that divide where we saw 50 lose the sales bet to a more vulnerable ye opening up that door a lot wider) definitely fit mac better, i absolutely get that

but as you said, if you're gonna make a narrative about white rappers & their effects - intended or not - it'd be hard to grab another name post em, no? like i like how much he talked about el-p and got into others (was absolutely not expecting the brother ali nod) but in terms of success/chances of folks knowing who you're talking about, mac felt like the obvious choice...even if the em connection beyond whiteness felt like stretching

the biggest contemporary artist to carry forth Eminem's legacy is Kendrick Lamar, but he's not even mentioned in the video

see that's kinda interesting cause even back on his black hippy days i'm not seeing that as much? the tyler the creator bits were super obvious to the point that he'd have been a bit remiss to skip over them

I'm definitely not the only one that doesn't like rap but loves Eminem. He has a lot of pop songs that are well loved.

He's one of the very few that transcend his genre.

you're definitely not the only one to feel that way, sadly
1) why not even casually engage with the video in the OP? could stand to learn from it
2) how confident are you in saying "one of the very few" from a genre you claim to hate and don't seem interested in engaging?
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
22,605
Eminem is just a amazing artist. I really hate rap but I love a lot of Eminem songs.
"I hate this entire decades' long catalogue of a genre fundamentally defined by Black people and Black culture, but man the one notable white guy? Now that's my shit."

Like...please stop.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,060
so yeah, the ye/cudi kinda just post backpacker era (never really sure what to call it, just that divide where we saw 50 lose the sales bet to a more vulnerable ye opening up that door a lot wider) definitely fit mac better, i absolutely get that

but as you said, if you're gonna make a narrative about white rappers & their effects - intended or not - it'd be hard to grab another name post em, no? like i like how much he talked about el-p and got into others (was absolutely not expecting the brother ali nod) but in terms of success/chances of folks knowing who you're talking about, mac felt like the obvious choice...even if the em connection beyond whiteness felt like stretching



see that's kinda interesting cause even back on his black hippy days i'm not seeing that as much? the tyler the creator bits were super obvious to the point that he'd have been a bit remiss to skip over them

TDE as a label was signed to Interscope, obvious connection through Dr. Dre to Eminem. But stylistically they're both lyrical miracle types with very stretchy similies, percussive delivery where they utilize their voice as its own instrument, create narratives within songs with bespoke character dualities (Kendrick = Marshall/Eminem, kdot = slim shady), storytelling songs where they portray characters outside themselves (sing about me, Stan)

not to say any or all of these things are exclusive to these two artists, but the parallels are there, as well as the personal relationships. So Logic is the next line to connect, but I suspect FD drew a line in the sand at mixed folks like him and Drake, which makes some sense given the black essentialist foundations within a lot of the argument logic.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,208
Vice City
TDE as a label was signed to Interscope, obvious connection through Dr. Dre to Eminem. But stylistically they're both lyrical miracle types with very stretchy similies, percussive delivery where they utilize their voice as its own instrument, create narratives within songs with bespoke character dualities (Kendrick = Marshall/Eminem, kdot = slim shady), storytelling songs where they portray characters outside themselves (sing about me, Stan)

ahhh when you lay it out like that...
my brain flattens/simplifies these things in ways that go "infinite =/= section 80" and the like, but yeah there's some similarities here i'd not taken note of before

i liked how he (fd) didn't back down to pointing out that despite the accolades, em has one classic and some other works with a lot of radio hits, but the peak of his offerings isn't something i think goes head-to-head with a lot of other common top 10 names. might be neither here nor there, but one thing that always holds him back for me is him coming at it often like a battle rapper (absolutely bodying benzino & others) but spending so much of his earliest career breakthrough period focusing on going at boy bands & pop stars.

like, some folks will have weird qualms with how many rappers make analogies to current athletes that date their music, but em's focus on pop figures that can't even respond, or as fd pointed at, so much on his mom & ex-wife...it's such boring content from a boring edgelord era. and kinda to the thesis statement of this video: if canibus or another black contemporary had spent time on stuff like that, i feel like it'd have been called corny, if noted at all

also not for nothing but i'm so glad logic didn't take up much space here, haha. in my mind dude belongs on a higher tier of a dumpster above like, hopsin (oh my god he showed hopsin here too 🤣)
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
6,047
"I hate this entire decades' long catalogue of a genre fundamentally defined by Black people and Black culture, but man the one notable white guy? Now that's my shit."

Like...please stop.
My brother loves rap. Especially dutch rap from the label Top Notch or rappers like Dr Dre, Biggie, Tupac, snoop, ect, I have listened to so much rap because of him. I just never been a fan of it. My taste is more Pop/J-Pop and Vocaloid. That's why I like Eminem (more Pop).

Same goes for Johny cash. I don't like country but he's probably one of my favorite singers. Hurt is one of the best songs ever.

I did watch this video btw together with my brother and thought it was very well made. My brother loved it
 
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JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,879
I once catfished Paul Wall in the gamers.com forums back in the day around early 2000s. He posted there briefly.
 

JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,879
37 minutes in and no mention of Action Bronson?

Looking forward to the section on Mac Miller (if there is one). I actually enjoy his albums.

Edit: I disagree with his "Why is he a goat?" assessment of Mac. Not everyone listens to hip-hop with the intent to build a deck of GOAT artists, to counter someone else's list in music-peen measuring… like so much Rap YugiOh. Sometimes you just like what you like… I enjoy Mac's "S.D.S." as much as I enjoy Mos' "Black on Both Sides" or JID's "Off the Zoinkys".
Action Bronson isn't really white though.
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,798
don't have any idea of rap (other than political spanish rap,... which i also have very little idea about), so I can't really agree or disagree with what FD says, but I watched the whole thing and while I didn't understand some terms, he has a very nice cadence and a video style that I really like and I find engaging, so thumbs up for that.
 

Dr. Benton Quest

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,477
My brother loves rap. Especially dutch rap from the label Top Notch or rappers like Dr Dre, Biggie, Tupac, snoop, ect, I have listened to so much rap because of him. I just never been a fan of it. My taste is more Pop/J-Pop and Vocaloid. That's why I like Eminem (more Pop).

Same goes for Johny cash. I don't like country but he's probably one of my favorite singers. Hurt is one of the best songs ever.

I did watch this video btw together with my brother and thought it was very well made. My brother loved it
that-is-bait.gif
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
37,992
don't have any idea of rap (other than political spanish rap,... which i also have very little idea about), so I can't really agree or disagree with what FD says, but I watched the whole thing and while I didn't understand some terms, he has a very nice cadence and a video style that I really like and I find engaging, so thumbs up for that.

ngl i was watching this at 1am having the hardest time turning it off just because FD speaks so well, milky with a dash of bourbon like medicine for a runny nose
 

P-MAC

Member
Nov 15, 2017
4,867
37 minutes in and no mention of Action Bronson?

Looking forward to the section on Mac Miller (if there is one). I actually enjoy his albums.

Edit: I disagree with his "Why is he a goat?" assessment of Mac. Not everyone listens to hip-hop with the intent to build a deck of GOAT artists, to counter someone else's list in music-peen measuring… like so much Rap YugiOh. Sometimes you just like what you like… I enjoy Mac's "S.D.S." as much as I enjoy Mos' "Black on Both Sides" or JID's "Off the Zoinkys".

Yeah, I haven't gotten to that part yet but if the premise is white people succeeding despite being mediocre, Mac doesn't fit. He's one of the most talented and dedicated to the culture there has been regardless of race.

Absolutely the case for all of the others though lol. I would say Em and Mac are the only white rappers that have reached a legendary status that makes them a solidified part of the hip hop pantheon. The rest have good songs here and there but don't have impressive careers as a whole or major development as an artist.
 

Red Kong XIX

Member
Oct 11, 2020
10,578
Disagree with some of his takes, but very educational and great video as always. Very interesting perspective he offers on the subject.
 

fairwxfriend

Banned
Jan 31, 2021
715
Remember when Michael Jackson bought Eminem's entire back catalogue with his fuck-you money after Just Lose It lol
 

IrishNinja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,208
Vice City
it was cool seeing him toss aesop rock in the mix, was kinda surprised kno from cunninglyngyuist didn't get a shout

Absolutely the case for all of the others though lol. I would say Em and Mac are the only white rappers that have reached a legendary status that makes them a solidified part of the hip hop pantheon. The rest have good songs here and there but don't have impressive careers as a whole or major development as an artist

damn, fd really tried to highlight el-p's growth & contributions, and even with every 5th white person (myself included) riding for run the jewels a few years back, dude still can't get his flowers!

for real though, cancer 4 cure was so underrated