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Varjet

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,154
Meh, most people didn't experience the effects of the 2015 crisis personally, they only heard about it in the news. So even though the numbers have drastically gone back since then, as long as the topic stays in the focus, it makes no difference to them. And obviously some people are interested in keeping it that way.
 

PaddingtonDidntDoIt

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 8, 2018
698
Must be fun shitting on other countries. In reality Austria is playing a leading role in steering towards an EU-wide consensus on border control and immigration and thus strenghtening the EU in both the short- and long term. You just don't happen to like that consensus (no tolerance for illegal immigration, asylum claims in centers in Northern Africa, helping in the regions themselves), so pathetically have to resort to these kinds of ignorant remarks.

It is also ironic how you cite "enacted by people voted by their populations" as an argument, but seem to ignore it when it comes to people voting for anti illegal-immigration parties/governments. Then it just doesn't count eh?
This has to be a joke.

You fail to outline what economic burden refugees create that has resulted in these countries having high unemployment and poverty.

You refer to illegal immigrantion several times. Are you able to articulate what is illegal immigration and how this is, again, leading to unemployment and poverty in these countries?

Your proposition that Austria is leading the way for European border control and thus strengthening the EU as a result is a farce, you are failing to elaborate on how Austria pushing for stronger borders and pushinf the EU more right, solves the problem of unemployment and poverty in these countries.

Just because you agree with baseless and unsubstantiated claims and viewpoints, doesn't make you right. Just makes you informed.
 
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Oilvomer

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
Meh, most people didn't experience the effects of the 2015 crisis personally, they only heard about it in the news. So even though the numbers have drastically gone back since then, as long as the topic stays in the focus, it makes no difference to them. And obviously some people are interested in keeping it that way.

Is that not how you prevent the same mistakes happening, by keep remembering and not forgetting
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Migration numbers are down massively this year. The only thing going upwards is the scapegoating.

Yep, but it's incredibly effective and it's a fantastic way to win elections. Why wouldn't you campaign on it? It's polarising, there's plenty of pictures from 2015 to use, there's headlines to scare you and recent arrivals can't vote.
 
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Oilvomer

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
This has to be a joke.

You fail to outline what economic burden refugees create that has resulted in these countries having high unemployment and poverty.

You refer to illegal immigrantion several times. Are you able to articulate what is illegal immigration and how this is, again, leading to unemployment and poverty in these countries?

Your proposition that Austria is leading the way for European border control and thus strengthening the EU as a result is a farce, you are failing to elaborate on how Austria pushing for stronger borders and pushinf the EU more right, solves the problem of unemployment and poverty in these countries.

Just because you agree with baseless and unsubstantiated claims and viewpoints, doesn't make you right. Just makes you informed.


You come across as pro Eu as one could be, can I ask do you think Merkel was right? And the lurching rightwards has nothing to do with immigration?
 

Deleted member 11926

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,545
This article and sentiment looks more like a UK thing to me. Yes, the EU needs reforms but it's certainly not in such a bad shape as the BBC describes it. That's like saying "The US is going to collapse any moment now!", which is a hyperbole of similar nature.
 

Deleted member 1759

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,582
Europe
You come across as pro Eu as one could be, can I ask do you think Merkel was right? And the lurching rightwards has nothing to do with immigration?
That has nothing to do with being pro-EU. They're just calling the poster out on the bullshit he's echoing from the right wing government we currently have in Austria. All talk and no actual plans.
 
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Oilvomer

Banned for use of an alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
That has nothing to do with being pro-EU. They're just calling the poster out on the bullshit he's echoing from the right wing government we currently have in Austria. All talk and no actual plans.

Then as a Brit I welcome you, we know exactly what that feels like to have a Goverment who is full of hot air
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
Obligatory reminder:



YeRgoYv.jpg


We call this scape-goating. People want easily identifiable solutions to complex problems, and scary brown foreigners are an easy target.
 

Pilgore

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
370
The migration "crisis" is largely being used by right wing populists for political gain. The mass migration happening these past few years is a lot less of a "crisis" than a lot of Europeans realize.

But fear mongering about "others" coming to destroy your culture and way of life is the perfect ammunition for populist extreme right-wing politics. I think it was Austria, Serbia or Hungary that has recently created a new "border police response force" called Puma for "sudden masses of migrants storming the border."

The video of a training exercise looked absolutely ridiculous with migrants (actors in this case) storming the border like zombie hordes pushing and pulling the fences like a pack of wild animals.

The EU will survive this "crisis" just fine. It's the rise of the anti-EU extreme-right that will be much more of a threat to the EU.
 

PaddingtonDidntDoIt

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 8, 2018
698
Mandatory quotas please. So we can call actual bullshit on Poland and other governments complaining about not getting a fair share of immigrants.
 

Azraes

Member
Oct 28, 2017
997
London
Immigration is going to be a right-leaning talking point for votes for a long time. Use immigration as a 'true crisis incident' and inflate the divisions, once the divisions are set in use the positions of power to squeeze the existing lower and middle classes making policies that are beneficial for the wealthier classes and corporates just to hypernormalize the entire situation. Keep the situation going for as long as they can to make sure that rich richer until the point of collapse when they make their situation stable through different assets.

The situation of a handful of people (hyperbole on number but it's still a small percentage) being incredibly wealthy isn't long-term sustainable unless you switch labour out of human hands and entirely into artificial means. Immigration is the best scapegoat to keep people divided and the fact that the colour of your skin, your culture and other things are easy visible divisions makes it easier. Human society has often had sociopolitical divides based on visual differences and this is just an easy one.

The whole thing going on right now is classic Divide and Rule that's been propagated by empires for years. It's just right now it's brought in more economic clauses to it while still hiding behind a social mask. By the time a good number of people actually realise it, it'll be too late and more people will be uneducated or be paying a crazy price for their education (in some countries). We were never ready for a post-cold war world.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,591
This is not a possibility , but a certainty. The EU as we know It is done. Having the Number of people in Deep poverty quadruplicate in 6 years and government ignoring It and pushing civil rights and immigration as Central issues doomed those concepts for at least a decade if not Forever (in the case of immigration)
Why are you capitalizing random words like you're from the 1790s?
 

Deleted member 11517

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,260
Honestly, we did have a "European Union" before the EU which worked better yet more independent, and the way it's handled now, everything through Brussels - with people having no direct say in things and an unified currency was a huge mistake and everyone could see it coming around the 2000s.

No, I don't have a solution either, but this whole set up is just wrong, it's telling that one of its initiators, Great Britain, doesn't want to have to do anything with it anymore and never did regarding the insanity of having a unified currency while not having a unified economy.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
Honestly, we did have a "European Union" before the EU which worked better yet more independent, and the way it's handled now, everything through Brussels - with people having no direct say in things and an unified currency was a huge mistake and everyone could see it coming around the 2000s.

No, I don't have a solution either, but this whole set up is just wrong, telling that one of its imitators, Great Britain, doesn't want to have to do anything with it anymore and never did regarding the insanity of having a unified currency while not having a unified economy.

How you mean it worked better? And you mean the trade union?
 

GAMEPROFF

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,590
Germany
Honestly, we did have a "European Union" before the EU which worked better yet more independent, and the way it's handled now, everything through Brussels - with people having no direct say in things and an unified currency was a huge mistake and everyone could see it coming around the 2000s.

No, I don't have a solution either, but this whole set up is just wrong, it's telling that one of its initiators, Great Britain, doesn't want to have to do anything with it anymore and never did regarding the insanity of having a unified currency while not having a unified economy.
You can participate and the people have a say. They just have to vote for the Eurpean Parliament.
 

citrusred

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,967
No, I don't have a solution either, but this whole set up is just wrong, it's telling that one of its initiators, Great Britain, doesn't want to have to do anything with it anymore and never did regarding the insanity of having a unified currency while not having a unified economy.

The solution is for people to take European elections seriously instead of voting in loonies for the craic.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Honestly, we did have a "European Union" before the EU which worked better yet more independent, and the way it's handled now, everything through Brussels - with people having no direct say in things and an unified currency was a huge mistake and everyone could see it coming around the 2000s.

No, I don't have a solution either, but this whole set up is just wrong, it's telling that one of its initiators, Great Britain, doesn't want to have to do anything with it anymore and never did regarding the insanity of having a unified currency while not having a unified economy.

It's true, we have no say because nobody fucking turns out for the MEP elections.

Maybe people should actually give a shit and realise the elections matter.
 

Deleted member 11517

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,260
You can participate and the people have a say. They just have to vote for the Eurpean Parliament.
Yeah, this would probably work if the European Parliament would be independent (which it isn't).
It's just a second layer on top of national elections, a "Well, you could have voted another Parliament if you aren't ok with your rights being taken away." kind of thing.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,931
Love the comments saying BBC is publishing stories like this to please the Brexit Overlords
Then on the flip side on other articles on BBC it's people commenting the BBC is anti-Brexit

Sign of neutrality when that's happening....

BUT

I'd also say it's a sign of bad journalism.

Because this thread alone with the additional material provided by other users would have given a great balanced article.
 

Minilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,514
Tokyo
Love the comments saying BBC is publishing stories like this to please the Brexit Overlords
Then on the flip side on other articles on BBC it's people commenting the BBC is anti-Brexit

Sign of neutrality when that's happening....

BUT

I'd also say it's a sign of bad journalism.

Because this thread alone with the additional material provided by other users would have given a great balanced article.

BBC is a diagrceful news organisation . Look at it's "coverage" on Scottish independence.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,931
BBC is a diagrceful news organisation . Look at it's "coverage" on Scottish independence.

For a neutral news organisation it's very clickbaity and more focused on getting the view numbers. Which being publicly funded it shouldn't have to worry and I'd rather it didn't.

I'd rather they took there time with each article and create news stories exploring both sides of the story.

If reader/viewer numbers fall - fine. At least we have some really good neutral news reporting.

They rarely do

But for that rare moment I see one it's an enjoyable read
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Lol, desperate british journalists trying to throw shade on europe to feel better for their own Brexit fiasco. EU's gonna collapse any day now!
Except support for it is stronger than ever.

And the "migrant crisis" has been over for a year now. It didn't even create right-wing parties: Those already existed. All it did was give them another scapegoat to focus on, instead of the usual jew/gay/trans boogieman they were attacking before.
The real problem is the usual populists blaming "the other" (migrants, gays, lesbians, transpeople, jews, elites, etc) for all issues while trying to push for laws benefiting the super rich. This works just like it does in the US - the poor people this disenfranchises can then be whipped up into a frenzy against "the other", distracting them from who is actually harming them.

See the AfD in Germany attacking anything they feel is too GLBT-friendly as "Genderwahn". THAT is the main problem the EU is facing right now. You can see that by regressive people on the first page immediately screeching about "pushing civil rights and immigration as Central issues" as the problem - typical right-wing attempts to stir resentment against those of us not existing in a way their ideology can accept.

The very idea that "civil rights" was "pushed" is insane and in no way substantiated by reality. In reality, progress there was incredibly slow, constantly facing sabotage attempts. But I'm sure even the little we managed to achieve is too much, so we can be blamed, as usual.


You can participate and the people have a say. They just have to vote for the Eurpean Parliament.

Bingo.

The EU is something people have a say in. Either by the EU Parliament or by voting their own governments into power. The EU CONSISTS OF ALL INVOLVED GOVERNMENTS.

It's just that politicans love blaming every policy that is bad (but that they supported) on the EU, while taking credit for every policy that benefits their vots as something they "fought against the EU" to get, creating this silly image of some big grand all-powerful EU council pushing countries...

...blending out that this "EU Council" is just the governments of the EU countries deciding things together. That's literally what it is and always was.
 

Jasup

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Yurop
Just a heads up. The talks about migration are beginning now. There is Euronews live coverage here: http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/28/watch-live-eu-leaders-begin-migration-talks-at-summit

EU leaders are meeting in Brussels today to kick off two days of high-stakes talks over migration. German Chancellor Angela Merkel has described the summit as "make or break" for the European Union.

edit: I actually don't know the timetable for the summit I just got a notification about the live coverage just now.

edit2: AAAND the live coverage ended for today. But talks still continue
 
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Funky Papa

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694
So whose numbers do we choose to believe? Germany took in at least 500,000 Non-EU immigrants in 2016.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...#Migration_flows:_2_million_non-EU_immigrants
You are confusing migrants to a country with arrivals to Europe.

Migrants enter through countries like Spain, Italy and Greece (arrivals), then move somewhere else, usually places with less stringent requirements and better job markets. Those people probably reached Europe during the first wave.

See my previous post regarding Sweden.
 

Micael

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,371
Honestly, we did have a "European Union" before the EU which worked better yet more independent, and the way it's handled now, everything through Brussels - with people having no direct say in things and an unified currency was a huge mistake and everyone could see it coming around the 2000s.

No, I don't have a solution either, but this whole set up is just wrong, it's telling that one of its initiators, Great Britain, doesn't want to have to do anything with it anymore and never did regarding the insanity of having a unified currency while not having a unified economy.

Would argue that there are some questionable things with your conclusion, for starters not quite sure Great Britain doesn't want to have anything to do with it, the vote passed with an extremely slim margin and with parts of Great Britain against it, despite what seems now to be foreign assistance and straight up a whole lot of lies on the leave side, the party in charge at the time seemed for the most part to be against leaving as well, the consensus of experts was also against leaving, so I would argue the all Great Britain doesn't want to have anything to do with it anymore to be a bit unrepresentative of reality.
As for the unified currency, the £ is an example of a unified currency, so not quite sure them being against it speaks all that much about the Euro, especially given the absurdly disproportion that also exists within the UK, England has a gdp per capita that is more than 2 times that of scotland and northern ireland.
Also while I don't disagree that the euro brings certain issues, and that there is even a good chance the EU would be in a better economic state if the euro didn't exist, those arguments also tend to dismiss the economical advantages that a unified currency tends to bring.

As for people not having a direct say in things, that is kind of how democracies in general work, representative democracy is the norm, and is certainly the case on all (or at least close enough) of the countries that compose the EU, also truly kind of hard to have 500 and something million people with a direct say on every single subject, and using the UK as an example would argue we have seen some of the issues that arise from people having a say in subjects they truly aren't qualified to speak off.