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Xeonidus

“Fuck them kids.”
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,294
Searched but couldn't find. Edge did an interview with some of the people at Epic regarding the Unreal Engine 5, the PS5 Demo, and their collaboration with Sony.

Source

Some pretty interesting insights, I thought.

"Enter Unreal Engine 5 – via a tech demo that we're told is running on PS5, and that gives us a long look at easily the most detailed and dramatically well-lit environments we've ever seen grace the interactive format. After a rather surface-level Xbox Series X showcase from Microsoft that left many scratching their heads about what next-gen really meant for games, here it finally was: our first proper look at what games coming to both PS5 and Xbox Series X could look like. Emphasis on the "could"."

"Sony, you see, had listened. PS5 was going to make Nanite possible. "It was three or four years ago at least when we started to talk with Mark Cerny about possibilities for the next generation," Sweeney says. Their discussion wasn't just about graphics, but about the growing realisation that storage architecture in game hardware – having to load data from a hard drive, the huge amounts of latency between mass storage and a processor – was a limiting factor in Epic's and all developers' future plans for game-making. The team at Epic received very early hardware access to the next-gen console, and the Sony collaboration has been far longer-running than the Microsoft one, Sweeney says, something which naturally influenced Epic's decision to reveal Unreal Engine 5 using PS5 instead of Xbox Series X."
 
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purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
Newly posted online, but this is from the August 2020 issue, so there might have been a thread on the highlights already.
 

MercuryLS

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,578
It's a really interesting article, can't wait to see how games look using UE5. It really feels like Sony built PS5 to really run this engine well.
 
OP
OP
Xeonidus

Xeonidus

“Fuck them kids.”
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,294
It's a really interesting article, can't wait to see how games look using UE5. It really feels like Sony built PS5 to really run this engine well.
I agree. A fantastic read and has me excited for what we're going to get this gen. Sony did a fantastic job with the PS5 for sure.
 

MercuryLS

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,578
I agree. A fantastic read and has me excited for what we're going to get this gen. Sony did a fantastic job with the PS5 for sure.

What really gets me excited is that we're probably going to see a big leap part way through this gen as devs really take advantage of these technologies. New rendering tech like this always comes with big jumps in fidelity.
 
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OP
Xeonidus

Xeonidus

“Fuck them kids.”
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,294
What really gets me excited is that we're probably going to see a big leap part way through this gen as devs really take advantage of these technologies. New rendering tech like this always comes with big jumps in fidelity.
And also seems there was a huge focus on ease of development from both Sony and Epic. Let the artists be artists!
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
If people are worried about their total storage capacity now, have fun with UE5 games using nanite :)
To be able to actually utilize the streaming of huuuge assets over a big game world, the game would literary take up the entire PS5 harddrive.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,186
If people are worried about their total storage capacity now, have fun with UE5 games using nanite :)
To be able to actually utilize the streaming of huuuge assets over a big game world, the game would literary take up the entire PS5 harddrive.

Didn't we get the file size for this demo? It was huge iirc
 

Firmus_Anguis

AVALANCHE
Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,168
This was an interesting read. UE5 does indeed sound revolutionary. With basically any asset being able to be streamed on the fly, infinitely, it seems like the future bottleneck will be... Storage! 😂

Epic implying that future games might require an Internet connection to mitigate the storage problem isn't really something I'm excited about, eventhough I personally have a great Internet connection...

I'd rather have an innovative new, physical storage solution to go along with it.

Who knew? The next FF7 is really going old-school! 😂

nb3oglnq8kc41.jpg


Jokes aside, OW-games will benefit from this greatly. If you can simply import any asset into your engine, you could create any world you want. This makes me hopeful for the future of FF7 games.

I do wonder though, how storage might limit things...

Oh, and ironically, part of the reason why Square decided to go with the PlayStation instead of the N64 for the release of the original FF7 was because of Sony's storage solution. Sony's use of CD's instead of cartridges was pivotal.
 
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Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
Didn't we get the file size for this demo? It was huge iirc
Yeah. I mean, they spoke about 33 million polygon assets. It's hard to know exactly how many verts it has but lets assume 33 million verts too. The cheapest possibie way to store that asset is as 3 floats per vert and 3 long per poly (need long since so many verts).
So thats 4 bytes * 3 * 33 million plus
8 bytes * 3 * 33 million
So that asset is roughly 1.2GB.
Add normals and UV and your prob at 2GB.
And thats without textures (and no tangents).
1 asset.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,286
man do I wish that FF7 Remake Part 2 uses this engine. The open world needs no compromises.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,951
So in five years, using your internet connection to stream assets might become the norm like in FS2020?

That's gonna be a pain. Pretty awesome, but still a pain. I wonder how far we can expect SSD prices to drop by then.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,074
Barcelona Spain
Yeah. I mean, they spoke about 33 million polygon assets. It's hard to know exactly how many verts it has but lets assume 33 million verts too. The cheapest possibie way to store that asset is as 3 floats per vert and 3 long per poly (need long since so many verts).
So thats 4 bytes * 3 * 33 million plus
8 bytes * 3 * 33 million
So that asset is roughly 1.2GB.
Add normals and UV and your prob at 2GB.
And thats without textures (and no tangents).
1 asset.

quixel.com

Building next-generation experiences with Megascans and Unreal Engine 5

We’re thrilled to reveal Lumen in the Land of Nanite, a new demo made in Unreal Engine 5 featuring assets from the Quixel Megascans library.

quixel.com

Quixel Limestone Quarry

Discover the building blocks of Epic's UE5 demo "Lumen in the Land of Nanite". This unique, highly-detailed collection contains a large set of jagged cliff faces, limestone rocks, quarry outcrops and giant slab formations.

Don't forget the 8k textures, 16k shadow maps, some of the textures used for the demo.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
quixel.com

Building next-generation experiences with Megascans and Unreal Engine 5

We’re thrilled to reveal Lumen in the Land of Nanite, a new demo made in Unreal Engine 5 featuring assets from the Quixel Megascans library.

quixel.com

Quixel Limestone Quarry

Discover the building blocks of Epic's UE5 demo "Lumen in the Land of Nanite". This unique, highly-detailed collection contains a large set of jagged cliff faces, limestone rocks, quarry outcrops and giant slab formations.

Don't forget the 8k textures, 16k shadow maps, some of the textures used for the demo.
I know :D rip 1 TB
 

KOHIPEET

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
I wonder if UE5 will change the industry, if it will it shift how developers build their engines into this direction.
 

Ryuhza

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
11,449
San Diego County
Instant streaming, the future, yes yes, exciting to be sure. I just hope that they make developers pay extra money to turn on chromatic aberration. Increase the price the more extreme they go.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,659
Everyone will get UE5 late this year, but we don't know when will devs start using Nanite and Lumen.
 

Randdalf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,187
My guess is that early games using UE5 + Nanite will use a hybrid of old and new. Perhaps character models and key pieces done with the new tech and the rest done traditionally. We'll probably not see games done fully in Nanite for a few years.
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,641
Can't wait until the gen really starts. 2023 onwards should hopefully be pretty sweet and I hope that FF7R part 2 is on UE5 though it seems like a stretch.

Imagine 2026!
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Nanite still seems like something that's more useful for non-gaming. The example they shown was so extreme for a game
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,052
When Epic first talked about their collaboration with Sony... I was too humble to bring up that I kind of predicted it back in April, months before. 😎

UE is seen as a multiplatform engine no?....but lately more and more MS/Sony published games on both sides have used the engine instead of an inhouse engine.

So will Epic take this into consideration when developing the next version? Have tools ready to take advantage of what differentiates these consoles from each other? To entice more first party studios?
www.resetera.com

Side-by-side official next gen flagship specs: Xbox Series X and PS5 spec sheets

Another reminder bump, that this thread still exists. I don't know much about software development or terminology. But still a question. Do yall think Unreal Engine 5 will take advantage of what these systems can offer? UE is seen as a multiplatform engine no?....but lately more and more...

Now just waiting to see what Sony does with MLB The Show...we should know either this month or next month.
 

Raide

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
16,596
The Coalition will dominate UE5. Best in class for engine use. Even Epic don't come close.
 

Snefer

Creative Director at Neon Giant
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
340
The Coalition will dominate UE5. Best in class for engine use. Even Epic don't come close.
This not even remotely true, haha. They are pushing it quite well, but fortnite doesnt get enough cred for what it does, its technical wizardry.
 

Deleted member 48991

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2018
753

Ionic

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,735
So, is anybody else a little worried about the part where they discuss asset size and utilizing the cloud? Like, half the article is about how these new consoles have miniscule latency and massive bandwidth which allows for all kinds of cool new things but then we get to the fact that these assets will be stupid massive and the conversation switches to using the cloud which compared to SSD's has massive latency and miniscule bandwidth. Tim cites the popularity of Fortnite for how games reliant on internet can succeed, but an online shooter that sends game state packets is a bit different than streaming in 100GB of movie quality desert rock assets each time you load a new level. Really that entire section sounds like it's buttering us up for another Sim City-esque stab at locking more games to online services.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
So, is anybody else a little worried about the part where they discuss asset size and utilizing the cloud? Like, half the article is about how these new consoles have miniscule latency and massive bandwidth which allows for all kinds of cool new things but then we get to the fact that these assets will be stupid massive and the conversation switches to using the cloud which compared to SSD's has massive latency and miniscule bandwidth. Tim cites the popularity of Fortnite for how games reliant on internet can succeed, but an online shooter that sends game state packets is a bit different than streaming in 100GB of movie quality desert rock assets each time you load a new level. Really that entire section sounds like it's buttering us up for another Sim City-esque stab at locking more games to online services.
I read it as Sony and Microsoft will make a lot of money selling SSDs this gen. Maybe those Seagate expansions from MS will I'm the end act as cartridges, one per game lol
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,983
"Their discussion wasn't just about graphics, but about the growing realisation that storage architecture in game hardware – having to load data from a hard drive, the huge amounts of latency between mass storage and a processor – was a limiting factor in Epic's and all developers' future plans for game-making."

I have to wonder why MS went with more TFLOPS instead of a faster storage architecture if this was the sentiment developers were sharing 3+ years ago.
 

modiz

Member
Oct 8, 2018
17,891
I am very excited to see how an open world game (like maybe Days Gone 2) with UE5's Nanite and Lumen could look on consoles.

The new Hellblade is IIRC.
it does, but the teaser trailer was running on an early version of Unreal 4.25 so it hasnt showcase the usage of any UE5 feature.

I have to wonder why MS went with more TFLOPS instead of a faster storage architecture if this was the sentiment developers were sharing 3+ years ago.
Wasnt it said that MS hadn't discussed their plans with developers (aside from maybe a few key partners) until closer to release? Sony just had Cerny go on a world wide trip in 2015 between various game developer studios to ask what issues they are having with the PS4 and what new features do they want for the next generation and built their base system around that. MS probably just had their own internal goals which were roughly speaking: double the GPU power, have an SSD in it, have a far more advanced CPU in it"
 

gozu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
So, is anybody else a little worried about the part where they discuss asset size and utilizing the cloud?

If you're worried about games like Flight Simulator 2020, which needs to stream data from the net for max detail, I wouldn't be.

Running virtual servers in the cloud costs money to the dev. Running things on your console is free. Other than a few special cases, I would expect the status quo to remain for the next decade at a minimum.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
This was an interesting read. UE5 does indeed sound revolutionary. With basically any asset being able to be streamed on the fly, infinitely, it seems like the future bottleneck will be... Storage! 😂

Epic implying that future games might require an Internet connection to mitigate the storage problem isn't really something I'm excited about, eventhough I personally have a great Internet connection...

I'd rather have an innovative new, physical storage solution to go along with it.

Who knew? The next FF7 is really going old-school! 😂

nb3oglnq8kc41.jpg


Jokes aside, OW-games will benefit from this greatly. If you can simply import any asset into your engine, you could create any world you want. This makes me hopeful for the future of FF7 games.

I do wonder though, how storage might limit things...

Oh, and ironically, part of the reason why Square decided to go with the PlayStation instead of the N64 for the release of the original FF7 was because of Sony's storage solution. Sony's use of CD's instead of cartridges was pivotal.
We already have the "innovative storage solution". Its SSDs. But thee are early days yet. Eventually, we would get to a point where these consoles or nextgen console comes with around 4TB of storage. And games can take up as much as 300GB per game.

By the time next-gen consoles come along (2027?), 4TB SSDs would probably cost them around what it cost them now to put in SSDs in a PS5/XSX.

I have to wonder why MS went with more TFLOPS instead of a faster storage architecture if this was the sentiment developers were sharing 3+ years ago.
differences in strategy.

One is a scalpel, the other is a broadsword.

They can both cut.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,659
It is wild to imagine that game devs will now have the ability to take film quality assets and put them on screen. The bottleneck is moved to storage now, with game being limited to how much the environment can take on SSD. There is a chance that the biggest Nanite games will have chapter-based installations, with old chapters being automatically deleted from console storage while new ones are streamed it.

ILM has created 20 blocks of New York for Avengers 1. That kind of city quality will be possible in games.


Far from Home had even more detailed [but brief] look at the city.
 
Dec 31, 2017
1,430
We already have the "innovative storage solution". Its SSDs. But thee are early days yet. Eventually, we would get to a point where these consoles or nextgen console comes with around 4TB of storage. And games can take up as much as 300GB per game.

By the time next-gen consoles come along (2027?), 4TB SSDs would probably cost them around what it cost them now to put in SSDs in a PS5/XSX.


differences in strategy.

One is a scalpel, the other is a broadsword.

They can both cut.
No way you get a 4TB SSD in a console in 2027, prices don't go down that fast lol
 

Sems4arsenal

Member
Apr 7, 2019
3,628
It is wild to imagine that game devs will now have the ability to take film quality assets and put them on screen. The bottleneck is moved to storage now, with game being limited to how much the environment can take on SSD. There is a chance that the biggest Nanite games will have chapter-based installations, with old chapters being automatically deleted from console storage while new ones are streamed it.

ILM has created 20 blocks of New York for Avengers 1. That kind of city quality will be possible in games.


Far from Home had even more detailed [but brief] look at the city.


The issue still will be storage. Cloud streaming will mitigate this -- but we're still a few ways off that.
 

Pheonix

Banned
Dec 14, 2018
5,990
St Kitts
Yeah. I mean, they spoke about 33 million polygon assets. It's hard to know exactly how many verts it has but lets assume 33 million verts too. The cheapest possibie way to store that asset is as 3 floats per vert and 3 long per poly (need long since so many verts).
So thats 4 bytes * 3 * 33 million plus
8 bytes * 3 * 33 million
So that asset is roughly 1.2GB.
Add normals and UV and your prob at 2GB.
And thats without textures (and no tangents).
1 asset.
That's an oversimplification of the technology.

Nanites don't mean have to have an asset that is 30M polygons in size. But that you "can" have a scene whose assets all sum up to 30M+ worth of polygon assets, but that (and this is the impressive part) those assets would take up very little space in system RAM.

So is something like this instead, for a 4k image, nanites would instead be measured by the number of pixels on the screen. Asit breaks down and maps polygons to pixels. Theoretically, that means that any game using nanites would have a near-identical asset/model RAM footprint that is tied to its resolution. Regardless of how many assets makeup that scene. But the data of the asset is streamed in and out based on player interaction with the scene.

Yes, the actual game size would vary based on how many assets and how many polygons are used to build them, but their footprint in RAM, and the fact that streaming asset data/quality in and out is what really makes nanites special.

So basically, they could make a game like FF7R using the tech. The only difference is that the game would only ship with the highest quality assets/models. There would be no need to have lower-quality versions of any of those models for the different LODs that we typically see in games today.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,881
My guess is that early games using UE5 + Nanite will use a hybrid of old and new. Perhaps character models and key pieces done with the new tech and the rest done traditionally. We'll probably not see games done fully in Nanite for a few years.

My understanding is that Nanite can't even be used for character models.
 

pg2g

Member
Dec 18, 2018
4,881
Wasnt it said that MS hadn't discussed their plans with developers (aside from maybe a few key partners) until closer to release? Sony just had Cerny go on a world wide trip in 2015 between various game developer studios to ask what issues they are having with the PS4 and what new features do they want for the next generation and built their base system around that. MS probably just had their own internal goals which were roughly speaking: double the GPU power, have an SSD in it, have a far more advanced CPU in it"

I am sure Microsoft did not develop their solution in a vacuum. They probably think what they have is good enough to meet the need. They also intend to support PC so an extremely custom solution isn't something that was going to be taken advantage of anyway.