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Dragon Ball Super |OT2| Hooray for being born a Saiyan!
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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But what if they took out U7's team leader that'd be pretty crazy
Saying Caulifla is Piccolo, or that she's only there to prop up Kale makes no sense. Unlike Piccolo, she at least has actually had moments to fight on her own, unlike Piccolo who has been pretty much completely joined to the hip with Gohan. Not to mention she had a defined goal in wanting to beat Goku/learn how to access SSJ3/SSB. Piccolo on the other hand, again, just follow Gohan's lead, take any blows for him when necessary.
Dude hasnt had enough fights to go and rank them, gotta give it some time
Namek was the peak of DB imo. Everything surrounding the Freeza fight including the fight itself and the payoff was excellent (primarily in the manga version as the anime dragged things on a bit too much). The anime's take on Goku going SSJ for the first time though is awesome as hell.
This is one my favorite scenes in Dragon Ball history. The buildup, music, atmosphere, everything was great as Goku arrived to the battlefield. Still get goosebumps when rewatching it. We need more serious Goku
I thought we were just talking about fights in general?
I like Serious Goku, because he's all about business, and he doesn't talk much. That's what I loved most about UI Goku, he had Cell Saga Gohan vibes. He didn't have a fucking thing to say to Jiren in that form lol.
2nd favorite Goku would probably be Disadvantaged Goku, because I enjoy seeing Goku revel in a struggle. Goku loves a challenge, and it's always fun to see him try and get over a hurdle. Goku vs Vegeta back in the Saiyan Saga would be a good example of this.
2nd favorite Goku would probably be Disadvantaged Goku, because I enjoy seeing Goku revel in a struggle. Goku loves a challenge, and it's always fun to see him try and get over a hurdle. Goku vs Vegeta back in the Saiyan Saga would be a good example of this.
Seriousku is cool. I love Seriousku, Savageku, Smugku, and Dadku the most. But in general it's always fun to see our protagonists go through genuine struggles. Which is why Goku and Roshi's moments are among the best moments in this tournament. They're the only U7 fighters so far to go through any true meaningful struggle so far in the ToP.
confident Gohan is the best one, sure he can't bring the trash talk like smughan can, but he wins the fights, can't wait to see him again in 118
You mean the fight he lost and then tied?
yeah, wins fights
well yeah, but it was talking about his W-L compared to smughan
It's not like Gohan's been an integral part of the plot since the tournament started. Taking him out changes literally nothing.
The arc has been so focused on Goku that short of taking him out, there's nothing they could do that would change the dynamic of the tournament going forward. Removing him would have a tangible effect on where we go from there, you can't say that about anyone else. Remove anyone else and nothing changes.
Pretty much. I've always been of the opinion that I wouldn't at all have minded if Goku was gone after 110. I have no problem with him still here as he kicked ass in 113-116, but it would have been quite interesting to see how U7 would fair without their Ace being there for the rest of this over 20 episode long tournament.
that tie was bullshit, and he was dominating SS2 Goku and traded blows with SSB, him losing against KK was to be expected, smughan loses fights he was expected to win easily
I don't think he needed to be taken out. I'm saying I wouldn't have minded it.
What fights did he lose that he was expected to win?
Goku is the best character. And is the one who moves things forward.
If he weren't in the TOP for whatever reason, we'd have Vegeta being arrogant and jobbing, Gohan being unsure, Piccolo with good analysis but little significant action. But no driving force. His personality lends itself to making interesting interactions with other characters that otherwise wouldn't be (during fights)
He kind of has bits from everyone without being annoying: a touch of vegeta arrogance, Gohan docileness, piccolo battle sense, etc with his own personal traits.
Goku during peace times is pretty eh though. At times Annoying in fact (in Super).
If he weren't in the TOP for whatever reason, we'd have Vegeta being arrogant and jobbing, Gohan being unsure, Piccolo with good analysis but little significant action. But no driving force. His personality lends itself to making interesting interactions with other characters that otherwise wouldn't be (during fights)
He kind of has bits from everyone without being annoying: a touch of vegeta arrogance, Gohan docileness, piccolo battle sense, etc with his own personal traits.
Goku during peace times is pretty eh though. At times Annoying in fact (in Super).
Goku's at his best when he's in legit struggling fights, is being hilariously smug, or being there or showing his care for his family. It's why the Pan SoL episode with Goku babysitting her was great. But yeah, generally Goku's pretty meh in SoL episodes. He has his moments though. Like his tractor joke with Mr. Satan, him wearing the turtle suit against Kuririn, and him wearing his slicked out greased hair in the Arale episode. He was also pretty funny in the Baseball episode. He, Beerus, Champa, Vegeta, and especially Yamcha made that episode. Goku's slow ball was hilarious. But Yamcha's joke about leaving Tenshinhan and Chaouzu behind is still the funniest shit of that episode.
The thing is, this set up doesn't require a character like Goku to drive it forward. It's a tournament where everyone is in the ring at the same time, under a strict time limit, and is incentivized to fight and knock others out of said ring since not doing so results in the death of themselves and everyone they love. The driving force of the arc is the set up itself, no part of it requires Goku to force it forward, it's the sort of story that has an internal inertia pushing it towards completion. All the fights Goku took part in could just as easily have been taken by someone else in the tournament.
It's why him going early in this tournament was never going to happen.
yeah, pretty much agree. Struggling and being smug bring out good moments too. I think it's cause he acknowledges that he's struggling, but you feel he still has something up his sleeve.
Yeah, SoL has nice moments that are pretty funny, but he can also be irking lol....
Even in that one, they still brought him back to fight Hit. Short of treading the same ground there's no way they could ditch him early only to bring him back again without it feeling rote.
Agreed about it all. In SoL episodes he's usually just meh. Like unless under specific conditions, I don't think he can carry a SoL episode. Him babysitting Pan was specific and tailored to him actually learning to be a grandpa. Threw in some Piccolo in there too for extra measure and it made for a fun episode. But it really doesn't work for Goku normally. Like for example Copy Vegeta stuff. I didn't hate it like most did, but Goku's moments aren't really all that interesting to watch. Hell those episode alone would have been far more entertaining if they were just about Goten and Trunks.
I know. But that's how it is. They're never going to bench the main character early on without him doing something fairly significant later on near the end of the saga.
super Buu, he completely outclassed him and he didn't use a single ki blast in the fight
I thought it was cool, just not Goku VS Cell level. I don't love it like most. Though even then, that's a lot more mild to how a feel about Goku VS Majin Vegeta (even in the anime). That fight was boring as fuck to me.
But did beat Super Boo. He just lost to Bootenks. A dude who absorbed a fused character and his mentor.
he's definitely not required to move things forward. I just think he's the best agent to do so at the moment.
I agree he is overused in those 2 second meaningless fights we've seen this tournament. But....
His unique personality among the heroes make for the most interesting interactions.
For instance, his half "Playful/I'm Going to Whoop You/I Want you to get Stronger" personality made him the best candidate for the Kelfa fight. A potential Vegeta or Gohan fight against Kefla is way less interesting. This is just my opinion though. Maybe someone thinks Gohan or whoever would have a really interesting dynamic with Her.
Same with Hit and so on.
Vegeta can be interesting too, but with how he's been acting lately, It feels like a retread of Andriod 18 or Cell breaking his pride is coming....The UI twist could be compelling though.
yea, goku made that episode worse.
just seeing gotenks would've been better.
Outside of Freeza, Goku was the best person to fight Kefla imo. But I would have enjoyed seeing Freeza fight her over Goku... Of course, you'd have to make her weaker than she ended up being.
GOATKU:
Genius Gokuu:
Goofku:
Trollku:
Smugku:
Savageku:
I mean, it's not like they couldn't have come up with something else for him to do like with Cell.
I just feel like everyone else needs some room to do stuff at this point. It looks like we might be getting a little of that, but I'm still annoyed they off-screened the one challenging fight Vegeta had so far.
My point is this arc doesn't require anyone to move it forward. It doesn't need an agent to move it forward, the time limit already does that. A character isn't always required to move things forward, the setting itself can serve that same role and does so here.
Savage Goku >>>>> all the others? Black is only as savage as he is because he took Goatku's body.>>>>>> all of the above
Real talk, I love Black. Love him over every version of Goku that isn't Kid Goku and Current Goku. Dude easily carried the last saga for me for the most part.
Goku is great, but like everything it gets old if its overused, and man does it feel like he has a hand in everything
This arc is a cookie jar, and Goku symbolizes the kid that always has his grubby little hands in it.
The whole point of Gohan being in the story right now is him losing his tendency to get smug.
Smug Gohan is basically smug Vegeta.
Smug Gohan is basically smug Vegeta.
Yeah Frieza too. Especially if they played up his sayain hatred and made U7 reluctant to root for him or something.
I enjoyed the goku dialogue a lot pre fusion though. But Frieza might be better overall.
Vegeta's lack of focus is the thing that really confuses me, because he's gotten so much attention in previous arcs.
You're not alone with this as I and many others agree. Goku catches flak for his character this saga, but I feel his character the way its written is fine for the most part. The real glaring issue is his overuse. Shrink his time down, and offer up some of his opponents to other characters at times, and it's a lot better. As I said above, they could have had Goku gas out and drop to Kefla, and had Freeza take over and find some other way to get UI out of Goku again later on. Or if they were going to use Goku going UI for Kefla, that shouldn't have taken place so close after Goku just finished fighting Jiren. Shrink his appearances in some episodes (102, 103, 106, 117) down to the screen time he had in episode 99 or just not appear at all.
Off-screening Vegeta VS Toppo was incredibly lame I agree. I hope they plan to have Toppo and Vegeta be in a big match at some point. At the same time, now that Vegeta and Toppo aren't fighting anymore, I really would prefer to see Freeza fight Toppo instead.
I honestly don't at all mind the lack of major Vegeta focus. He's been a very uninteresting character to me post-Namek outside of the FT Saga. He was fine in the recruitment arc but he's just been a bore in the actual tournament. I'll still never understand him not giving energy to the Genki Dama. Another reason I don't really care is because I know he'll just get more focus in future sagas while this legit could be the last time many of these characters get some focus.
Which is funny cause that's what they did in dbz. Hes either injured, dying from a virus or dead already which gave other characters time to shine
hey Smughan at leas has a reason to be smug, Vegeta most of the time talks like a crazy man, he saw UI Goku and still claims to be top saiyan with a straight face
Smug Gohan wants those who hurt people he likes to suffer.
Vegeta wants to see your full power and kill you quick. He never wastes times with his kills once he's gotten what he wants.
But he came back and did something fairly significant for all of them...
I mean sort of but not really? They never benched him only for Goku to do nothing of note later on. The closest to that was with Cell and even then, he not only gave Cell one enjoyable fight, he also saved the earth there, and gave Gohan the final push he needed to end Cell. The times where Goku wasn't around on Namek with just Gohan + Kuririn VS Vegeta VS Freeza and his men were probably some of my favorite moments in the series though.
I think he's talking more about benching Goku so everyone else had breathing room. The issue with characters like Goku is that, while they can drive things forward, they can also trample other characters and even the story's plot and become a singular focus to the detriment of literally everything else if they aren't managed correctly. Toriyama was generally good about striking that balance, and recognizing the issues with Goku as a character, while the Super writers haven't figured it out yet (or in the case of GT just don't care).
Which is really one of the big issues in this saga. Like the way this tournament is structured, you'd think they'd take the chance to put more focus on these other characters, but for Toei it's more so a chance to show off Goku kicking ass some more. Goku alone of his team has had around 50% of the focus of this tournament.
I mean, I'm just thinking about what Namek would have looked like if Toriyama took the same sort of line the Super writers have. Goku would have been on that first ship to Namek and would have gotten himself, and everyone else, killed pretty quickly. Like, that first encounter with Freeza would have been game over. He would have pushed the plot forward before it was ready and ended the series right then and there. As a character he was incapable of surviving that arc without the power boost he got from the training he did on the way to Namek.
Toriyama recognized that and used it as a way to give the rest of the cast room to do things. We got a bunch of good Vegeta fights as well as some fun Gohan/Krillin combo stuff. In addition he had time to set up a plot and move it along enough that by the time Goku got there everything was all set up for him to do his thing. He managed Goku's character really well, I just wish the Super writers could do so.
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