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J_ToSaveTheDay

"This guy are sick" and Corrupted by Vengeance
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
18,918
USA
Martin's an incredibly smart and talented guy, but what he's saying here is justifiable for him only because he's top of the food chain on the Doom games. Excuse my mixing metaphors, but it's a very different thing for people lower on the totem pole. That's who these anti-crunch movements are trying to protect - the little guy whose passion is exploited for the personal and financial gain of those at the top.

Yeah, I kinda get it from being the director, producer, or executive on any given media production but I maintain concern for the various task-focused positions below them. They're generally not the ones that get to think up a vision and see it come to light, they're typically just laboring toward the instructed goals from above. And yes, in some studios, ideas do present from every level and get debated as production moves forward and I hear about it in video games all the time, but what Hugo is describing is a position where he can basically naturally live out his desired lifestyle (being a pop culture nerd) and allowing that to essentially pass as work. He's literally describing himself as someone who gets to play games and watch movies as work and that being something he would do anyway, a privilege that in most studio would be seen as counterproductive behavior below the high levels.
 

Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
This is like when my General Foreman or Superintendent(Inside Wireman Electrician) wants us to work 12 hour shifts 6/7 days a week. Rather convenient when chilling inside an office in a chair.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
_103392798_39a75c55-64ec-4f74-988b-6adc067ab562.jpg

I'd crunch every day like that too if it only meant 3 hours of actual work.

Artists crunch. Every artist I work with sacrifices some amount of their life for their work. That's on them. What they don't do is mandate a hundred people working for them do the same. That's the difference between artists working themselves too hard and crunch culture.
This is why the takeaway I got from this thread is, "Hey look, I found another who doesn't mind working endless hours. See, it's not so bad so why go after my favorite developer?"
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,248
Tokyo, Japan
yikes at his lifestyle. sounds like his kids dont get much of his time.
Yikes right back at ya. Do you feel smug judging the way other people choose to live? You shouldn't paint people like that when you have no idea.

That said, as creative director, Hugo should still address the crunch culture issue in general. I'm sure he's fine, but does his attitude reflect the company's stance, and does it affect the way employees perceive one another at work? Those are things you need to work into your answer if you're going to tackle this in an interview.
 
May 17, 2018
3,454
Unpopular sentiment, I guess, but, I'm glad there are people like Hugo out there, busting their ass to make some of the best games ever made.

Lifestyle's not for everyone, but, we need people like that to push things beyond the limit.
 

Deleted member 3294

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,973
Unpopular sentiment, I guess, but, I'm glad there are people like Hugo out there, busting their ass to make some of the best games ever made.

Lifestyle's not for everyone, but, we need people like that to push things beyond the limit.
The thing is though: Doom Eternal's team doesn't just consist of Hugo Martin. Video games are team efforts. He's not the only one at the office staying late. He's the creative director, that's not a job he can do solo.

And maybe Hugo loves to crunch, but can we say the same about the workers under him who don't have a choice in if they have to do overtime?
 

TheWorthyEdge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,818
It's one thing to say it's a lifestyle, but another to enforce that lifestyle upon everyone. Which is why there are people pushing for laws because some people don't see it as a lifestyle, but rather a job that pays the bills.

I don't get that Hugo is forcing employees to overwork themselves from this interview.
 

halcali

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
6,317
Hong Kong SAR
ugh.. OF COURSE a director approves of crunch... he instituted it!

Hugo loves to crunch because he loves his job, but not EVERYONE feels the way he does about working soul-destroyingly long hours away from their family (for MONTHS!).

My eyes are blurring
 

Young Liar

Member
Nov 30, 2017
3,431
i swear to god game journalists who care about crunch interviewing directors/leads/higher-ups about crunch and getting this type of "i'm passionate but i don't force anyone in the company to crunch" should be hammering home the fact that the entire issue doesn't revolve around the heads of a company who get paid way more and have way bigger safety nets, that they set an example for the rest of the workforce, that even if they don't "force anyone to crunch" they implicitly do so anyway, that their actions set a precedent that influences who gets looked upon favorably and who doesn't based on their decision to make their whole lives focused on work, and that this has been an INDUSTRY-WIDE PROBLEM FOR YEARS.

i think doom 2016 is a fantastic game, i look forward to eternal, but also this is such a myopic and frankly selfish way of martin to approach the issue that has been RUINING PEOPLE'S LIVES and has made the entire game dev industry infamous with how it exploits its workers.

his words (and all the other studio leads words) carry weight, and there are plenty of people who are already valorizing them now "in the name of great art" at the expense of your unknown programmer, artist, qa tester, and their loved ones who get none of the public's adoration and all of the stress and struggles that come with crunch and leave a real, lasting toll.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Ah so you dont get it then, check.
And no, it wasn't shitty at all.
No, it seems like you don't get it. The point of focusing on this guy is to show how this culture of crunch starts at the top. He sees no problem with it (mainly because, as creative director, he stands to benefit immensely from the game's success) and fails to see how his desire to crunch negatively impacts those below him. That's why these kind of interviews are useful, they expose the mindset of those at the top.

Your 'ironic' post was dumb because it was acting as if people were saying "poor Hugo Martin" or saying he has it harder than minimum wage workers...which is the exact opposite of the discussion here.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
No, it seems like you don't get it. The point of focusing on this guy is to show how this culture of crunch starts at the top. He sees no problem with it (mainly because, as creative director, he stands to benefit immensely from the game's success) and fails to see how his desire to crunch negatively impacts those below him. That's why these kind of interviews are useful, they expose the mindset of those at the top.

Your 'ironic' post was dumb because it was acting as if people were saying "poor Hugo Martin" or saying he has it harder than minimum wage workers...which is the exact opposite of the discussion here.
No, it's you who don't get it.
I worked in the games industry for many years, maybe you did the same, or? I still work close to the industry, but with third party tech.
You know what the games industry has lots of? Exits. Game devs are very attractive on the jobs market, especially outside of the games sphere. There are tons of dev jobs out there, often with nice hours, nice bonuses and often better pay.
People stay in the games business because the choose to do so.

On the OTHER hand, there are many, many people out there working even more outrageous hours and for far less pay, and with little to no mobility in their careers. Sure, this is a video games form so it makes sense that people talk about the video games business, but come ON there are bigger issues out there. Don't like the crunch at Id? Check your LinkedIn - you have those 10 unanswered offers from last month. This was the case for pretty much everyone I knew and still know in the games business. But lots of people stay, and many of them because they feel like Hugo - it's a lifestyle. They LOVE it.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
No, it's you who don't get it.
I worked in the games industry for many years, maybe you did the same, or? I still work close to the industry, but with third party tech.
You know what the games industry has lots of? Exits. Game devs are very attractive on the jobs market, especially outside of the games sphere. There are tons of dev jobs out there, often with nice hours, nice bonuses and often better pay.
People stay in the games business because the choose to do so.

On the OTHER hand, there are many, many people out there working even more outrageous hours and for far less pay, and with little to no mobility in their careers. Sure, this is a video games form so it makes sense that people talk about the video games business, but come ON there are bigger issues out there. Don't like the crunch at Id? Check your LinkedIn - you have those 10 unanswered offers from last month. This was the case for pretty much everyone I knew and still know in the games business. But lots of people stay, and many of them because they feel like Hugo - it's a lifestyle. They LOVE it.
Right, so you are downplaying crunch and worker exploitation in the games industry. That's exactly what I thought you were doing, and why I said it was shitty.
 

balohna

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,210
So who prepares his meals, cleans his house, feeds his kids, etc

Hired help, or a wife he leaves alone to do it all?

I'm not even a workaholic creative director and I don't have 2 hours a day to just play games and read comics.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
Right, so you are downplaying crunch and worker exploitation in the games industry. That's exactly what I thought you were doing, and why I said it was shitty.
Yeah, and you still don't get it.
I even explained why this is such a tiny problem compared to other problems for less privileged people in less favourable industries; but I guess you care more about well payed developers than people working themselves to death for nickles at Walmart or Amazon delivery centers. Nice.
Especially in these times of Corona; with devs across the globe literally have better chances of surviving due to their industry having people working from home. Just another priviledge, add it to the pile.

But rise up! Save the poor devs! Including me. I crunched too. Still do, at times (but much less).
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Yeah, and you still don't get it.
I even explained why this is such a tiny problem compared to other problems for less privileged people in less favourable industries; but I guess you care more about well payed developers than people working themselves to death for nickles at Walmart or Amazon delivery centers. Nice.
Especially in these times of Corona; with devs across the globe literally have better chances of surviving due to their industry having people working from home. Just another priviledge, add it to the pile.

But rise up! Save the poor devs! Including me. I crunched too. Still do, at times (but much less).
No you fucking dumbass, I work in working class service jobs. I have to have two jobs just to get by. I can even work right now due to the virus, with no safety net. I know what it's like to work minimum wage jobs and struggle to get by with no chance for advancement. I have it worse than the majority of game devs, and you know what? I still care about them being mistreated. I care about the people are Naughty Dog who were hospitalized due to overwork. I care about the Netherrealm devs who developed PTSD because the project leads made them watch hundreds of hours of death and gore videos for reference without proper mental health treatments. ALL workers need to have solidarity in order for things to change.
 

Le Dude

Member
May 16, 2018
4,709
USA
It's a difficult thing to balance.

On one hand yes, there's plenty of people who are okay with working extra hours and just engrossing themselves in work. I work at a hospital and I've pulled 72 hour weeks before. Once you get past a certain point it just becomes your life.

For me it was always entirely optional. I wanted the extra money to buy things that I didn't need and so I worked my ass off over a short period to get them, rather than a month of 50 hour weeks. For me that's the way I would rather do it.

There should definitely be laws in place making it so that those extra hours can't be mandatory, but regardless of laws it will be incredibly difficult to get rid of a workplace culture that encourages working extra hours. If a studio needs the extra work and there's people pouring all of their time into the project working 60+ hours a week while someone is working 40, there's going to be people that look negatively at that person and if it comes times for cuts they're probably the person the company will look at first. As I said, of course there should be laws, but you can't police thought and studios are going to push to retain the more "dedicated" employees, so it's difficult to get rid of a workplace environment that encourages crunch.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
No you fucking dumbass, I work in working class service jobs. I have to have two jobs just to get by. I can even work right now due to the virus, with no safety net. I know what it's like to work minimum wage jobs and struggle to get by with no chance for advancement. I have it worse than the majority of game devs, and you know what? I still care about them being mistreated. I care about the people are Naughty Dog who were hospitalized due to overwork. I care about the Netherrealm devs who developed PTSD because the project leads made them watch hundreds of hours of death and gore videos for reference without proper mental health treatments. ALL workers need to have solidarity in order for things to change.
I feel bad for you. You are an actual victim of this capitalist economy, and your spend your time shedding tears for people who choose to do what they do.
Do you think Naughty Dog people can't change jobs? HUH? They are top of the god damn food chain. They can pick up another job in 10 seconds. Can you do that?? Just say "fuck it I'm out" to your boss and go somewhere where you make more money and have more chill hours? NO.
How about you care about your people instead of my people - sure there are some people here that overwork themselves. And van gogh cut his ear off.

Edit:
Also "fucking dumbass". Really? Grow the fuck up.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I feel bad for you. You are an actual victim of this capitalist economy, and your spend your time shedding tears for people who choose to do what they do.
Do you think Naughty Dog people can't change jobs? HUH? They are top of the god damn food chain. They can pick up another job in 10 seconds. Can you do that?? Just say "fuck it I'm out" to your boss and go somewhere where you make more money and have more chill hours? NO.
How about you care about your people instead of my people - sure there are some people here that overwork themselves. And van gogh cut his ear off.

Edit:
Also "fucking dumbass". Really? Grow the fuck up.
Yeah, you are being a dumbass. Do me a favor and quit pretending like you actually give a shit about people's labor being exploited. If you actually cared beyond using low wage workers as a whataboutism to deflect from poor labor practices in other industries, you wouldn't be saying what you've said in this thread. People should not be mistreated, period. Labor should not be exploited, period.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,715
Yeah, you are being a dumbass. Do me a favor and quit pretending like you actually give a shit about people's labor being exploited. If you actually cared beyond using low wage workers as a whataboutism to deflect from poor labor practices in other industries, you wouldn't be saying what you've said in this thread. People should not be mistreated, period. Labor should not be exploited, period.
Stop acting like you know anything about what I care about or not. At least learn how to discuss things online, instead of shouting insults and claiming you peer through the screen and into my brain - where you can somehow tell that I'm don't actually mean the stuff I'm saying over and over again.
Also, you haven't worked in this industry so you -don't- -know- -what- -you- -are- -talking- -about-. Less shouting, more listening, is my advice to you.