Don’t I have the right to not be around guns?

[RogueAgent]

I thought private businesses could refuse weapons in their establishments? Or does state rule override that?

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Depends on the state. In reality though, the only "protection" those laws provides is a sign. Violating that law has varying penalties if caught but if a person is intent on shooting someone illegally they aren't going to care so it's more of a feel good measure than actual protection. Places like government buildings/courthouses/concerts etc have laws in place like that too but the difference is they have screening for weapons at the door and armed security/police present to put teeth and enforcement to it

 

[Ogodei]

The thing is if you consider gun ownership to be a right, then this argument reads like "don't I have a right to not be around gay people?"

The logic of gun rights is that ultimately gun ownership is statistically not harmless, even for "law-abiding" gun owners. The chances of shooting someone accidentally or shooting someone on purpose (including yourself) are noticeably higher. It should not be framed as a right because it's shown to make you a danger to yourself or others.

You seem brainwashed; why should the government have a monopoly on violence

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The alternative to the state monopoly on violence is lawlessness. Citizen militias in the context of anarcho-syndicalism is an interesting idea in theory, but in reality if we are all empowered to enforce the law then the groups most willing to use violence will get their way. You just end up with endless gang warfare in that environment.

 

[Jedi2016]

This rolls into that category of things where your right to do one thing "infringes" on someone else's right to do another thing. It's like the "religious freedom" argument against the existence of gay people. Apparently their right to believe in bigotry overrides your right to live. Ditto for guns.

 

[RogueAgent]

The thing is if you consider gun ownership to be a right, then this argument reads like "don't I have a right to not be around gay people?"

The logic of gun rights is that ultimately gun ownership is statistically not harmless, even for "law-abiding" gun owners. The chances of shooting someone accidentally or shooting someone on purpose (including yourself) are noticeably higher. It should not be framed as a right because it's shown to make you a danger to yourself or others.

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It is framed as a right because it IS a right. Self Defense is a fundamental human right

 

[Everybody Lies]

I'm still curious why the right to keep and bear arms supersedes my right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. When anyone can get shot going to school, movies, concerts, the mall, a mosque, etc. it becomes pretty clear that the 2nd is now in direct conflict with the preamble and it's inalienable rights.

 

[Ogodei]

It is framed as a right because it IS a right. Self Defense is a fundamental human right

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Bodily autonomy is a human right. So you have a limited right to self defense in regards to preserving your bodily autonomy. You do *not* have the right to take law enforcement into your own hands, which is the province of ownership of deadly weapons. With self-defense defined in a way that allows for the ownership of deadly weapons, it is easy for your right to impugn on the rights of others (namely bodily autonomy, violated by someone who, say, gets shot by a misfired weapon).

 

[Z-Beat]

I'm still curious why the right to keep and bear arms superceeds my right to the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness. When anyone can get shot going to school, movies, concerts, the mall, a mosque, etc. it becomes pretty clear that this the 2nd is now in direct conflict with the preamble and it's inalienable rights.

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Legally it doesn't since the mere existence of guns doesn't guarantee that you can never be happy or alive. But the real answer is because money and crazy.

 

[Everybody Lies]

Legally it doesn't since the mere existence of guns doesn't guarantee that you can never be happy or alive. But the real answer is because money and crazy.

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I'd argue that the guns are the source of many Americans no longer being able to pursue life, liberty and happiness. For example: the parents of those poor Sandy Hook kids whose children were torn to pieces literally.

 

[TaterTots]

No. You have free will though. You see someone carrying a firearm, you have the right to turn around and leave if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[Z-Beat]

I'd argue that the guns are the source of many Americans no longer being able to pursue life, liberty and happiness. For example: the parents of those poor Sandy Hook kids whose children were torn to pieces literally.

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Unfortunately you could also make that argument for anyone whose been killed by anything that people are legally allowed to own.

 

[Torpedo Vegas]

Move to Australia

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Nice try spider, but you'll have to get your food off of someone else.

We had a guy open carry into a best buy we were in and a man in a USMC shirt roasted him out of the building. He followed the open carry guy around and kept quick drawing his finger gun like it was the wild west. Till the guy left.

 

[Wackamole]

Move to a modern humane country. I don't see anything happening when it comes to guns in the USA.

 

[grmlin]

I can't even imagine how it is to live like this. Especially with kids.

No one should walk around with guns if it's not the police/military. It's the most ridiculous thing for me. I'm German

 

[Everybody Lies]

Unfortunately you could also make that argument for anyone whose been killed by anything that people are legally allowed to own.

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But only a gun is made for the express purpose of killing, maiming and injuring. All of the things you are talking about have a primary purpose. Weaponnizing said products are not what they are intended to be used for at all. A car is created as a means of transport and that is what the majority use it for. Can it be used as a weapon? Sure, but that isn't what it is made to do. A gun only has a primary purpose. It does not have a secondary purpose. Its an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[One Eyed Willy]

I think you need to google what a right is.

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This lol

 

[Z-Beat]

But only a gun is made for the express purpose of killing, maiming and injuring. All of the things you are talking about have a primary purpose. Weaponnizing said products are not what they are intended to be used for at all. A gun only has a primary purpose. It does not have a secondary purpose. Its an apples to oranges comparison.

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Some would argue that guns serve the purpose of being for self-defense with a secondary use of recreation and at that point you could get into the legality of stuff like learning martial arts, which are also just for hurting people/recreation but are supposed to be for self-defense.

Just to be clear I don't buy into the line of reasoning that I'm using to justify ownership of any gun you want, but this is the line of reasoning that other people will use against you so you have to learn to break it.

 

[Chamberlin]

What are you talking about? You are free to carry your own. That way you'll feel safe regardless of whether or not people around you are carrying.

You can also start teaching the younguns how to wield and mantain their own firearms in order to protect themselves if push ever comes to shove.

It's part of the American identity and you should as an American embrace it instead of trying to get rid of it.

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This is so stupid it made me laugh out loud! Thanks for the pick-me-up in this depressing thread.

Delete this post out of Fucking Dairy Queen if too dumb.

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OP, you're absolutely not being dumb, unreasonable, or cowardly at all. The right to live without the concern of being slaughtered on the whim of any madman you might happen across is definitely a right far more deserved than the right of some few delusional people to fantasize about being an action hero. The real cowards are those who are willing to ruin people's day wherever they go by broadcasting their eagerness for an excuse to kill to everyone around them. They are the ones who would rather overcompensate for their cowardice and other shortcomings with firearms than come to terms with the simple facts and statistics about gun violence and gun ownership, and I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't needlessly perpetuating the countless murders we're enduring every year as a result.

No, unfortunately the right to avoid such pairs of pointless tools is not yet legally guaranteed, but when people started dying in car accidents we came up with speed limits and driver's licenses because we weren't so insane as to consider a person's right to drive as fast as they want more important than the right of others to live without that risk. Normally that analogy might be a reductio ad absurdum but I think it really is that bad. It's as if the US was the only comparable country without driver's licenses and no matter how hard we tried we couldn't pass them into law because of a few lunatics shouting about how it's really the number of car doors that cause accidents and criminals would just drive anyway so there's no point in trying. Unfortunately these nutcases' insecurities tend to outgun their reasoning on these issues and there's never a good brain with a gun around to stop them.

Hang in there, though. We will definitely get there eventually.

 

[BakedTanooki]

All I want to say is that I'm sorry you had to experience that situation. No overthinking at all. I've would done / thought the same, especially in your country.

 

[Everybody Lies]

Some would argue that guns serve the purpose of being for self-defense with a secondary use of recreation and at that point you could get into the legality of stuff like learning martial arts, which are also just for hurting people/recreation but are supposed to be for self-defense.

Just to be clear I don't buy into the line of reasoning that I'm using to justify ownership of any gun you want, but this is the line of reasoning that other people will use against you so you have to learn to break it.

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It's a point I've considered, but the gun is still being used in the only way that it can: to shoot. And aside from target shooting in it various forms, most of the recreation attributed to guns still involves killing.

I'm only arguing that comparing a gun to a thing like a car isn't a one to one comparison and it is disingenuous.

 

[Bakercat]

I went to a local vendor in my town the other day to buy a gallon of strawberries with my fiancé when an older man walked up with a revolver on his hip. I wanted to drop everything so bad and leave, but didn't want to be rude to the vendor i was talking too.

I don't know who you are dude with gun. I don't know if you're about to rob the vendor or you're a self described bad ass vigilante. All I know is when that shit is around any little thing can become a fatal problem. If you need that shit in a small rural college town for protection, then you need to make better acquaintances.

 

[Cilidra]

I don't blame you, I wouldn't want my children exposed to that crazy stuff either.
I went to work in the US for a few year (had a good opportunity at the time), I NEVER wanted to raise children there. Once me and my wife were ready to have children we moved back to Canada. 6 years in the US was enough. I could have stayed, would have had a really good good career lined up.
Had to evacuate and loss clients during 911 and lived through the stress of the DC sniper. Americans as individuals are nice people, made good friends there. America as a country has really insane laws/policies. US stand alone in it's way for how guns are handled for a 1st world country.

 

[K' Dash]

What are you talking about? You are free to carry your own. That way you'll feel safe regardless of whether or not people around you are carrying.

You can also start teaching the younguns how to wield and mantain their own firearms in order to protect themselves if push ever comes to shove.

It's part of the American identity and you should as an American embrace it instead of trying to get rid of it.

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What in the fuck?

I hope you're joking.

 

[Gunny T Highway]

This is why to me America is slowly becoming a real unsafe place to be. I do not feel like visiting there for a very long time.

 

[Masoyama]

That is very valid concern. I live in Costa Rica which for most part is safe, and you would be surprised to see a gun in the wild unless you are at a bank of near a police officer, yet we are living a difficult time since violence is increasing as drug cartels are fighting to take control of some territories and routes to send drugs to the US. Again, for the most part this is a safe country, but the fear is there. The difference is that most people believe that as long as you are not associated to the wrong people, is very unlikely you will have that sort of problem, while in the US is normal people who are carring those killings.

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I was born and raised in Costa Rica and moved to the US about 6 years ago. I am surrounded by gun owners here and feel much safer than when I go back There is an inherent danger by always being around guns, but the "state" of the country is way more important. Costa Rica might not have many guns, but drug gangs do have guns and will use them indiscriminately. I have never felt even as remotely unsafe in any part of the United States as I felt this January when I visited Costa Rica and I drove through the same streets I used to drive every day to go to college.

 

[Bishop89]

Nice try spider, but you'll have to get your food off of someone else.

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[Syriel]

Nice try spider, but you'll have to get your food off of someone else.

We had a guy open carry into a best buy we were in and a man in a USMC shirt roasted him out of the building. He followed the open carry guy around and kept quick drawing his finger gun like it was the wild west. Till the guy left.

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This is how you do it.

Those who are truly worried about personal safety will get a concealed carry permit.

Those who open carry are only trying to scare/intimidate others. The best way to combat that is to use your 1st Amendment right to make fun of them.

 

[Rag]

There was a guy walking around Fred Meyer with a gun on his hip the other day while I was getting stuff to make dinner. I've never once feared for my life in a grocery store. I've never honestly ever left my house thinking, I need to be able to kill people anywhere I go, I better have a gun. I can't imagine the level of fear and insecurity that these open carry people have if they can't go out in public without being armed.

 

[Thebeast!]

Come to cailfornia i have never seen a gun here in person.

 

[Beef Supreme]

Yes, you can. In privately owned businesses as well as any government ran property (the irony of this one). Otherwise, you're kind of SOL because the second amendment says that you don't.

Come to cailfornia i have never seen a gun here in person.

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Unless things have REALLY changed in the last several years, this is false. I was born and raised in LA and saw guns constantly. That's just anecdotal though.

 

[lilpump]

Because they are the ones upholding the laws? That's not the job of ordinary citizens. Of course, that requires a functional, well trained, non-corrupt police force, which is another of America's problems.

You seem to be advocating anarchy, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't work very well.

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No I'm advocating for the right of citizens to bear arms; a government should fear the working class; arming the populace assists this.
To quote Geore Orwell "The rifle on the wall of the labourers cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy"

 

[Contrite]

This is why America is super crazy to me and I probably couldn't live there.

I saw a gun in real life for the first time a few months ago. I was going home from work and waiting at London kings cross station and suddenly I was a few feet from a police officer with an assault rifle. I guess I'd been looking at my phone and not paying attention but there were loads of them wondering around.

I never found out why the armed met force were there that day but I know coming face to face with that gun terrified me. And that one was strapped to a specially trained police officer.

I don't know how you people aren't constantly having panic attacks with plain old civilians walking around with guns.

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Yeah, I seriously do not get how guns make people feel safe, whether it's in the hands of the supposed 'good guy', the police, or even yourself.

I had a similar experience myself: being a Norwegian, I don't think I've ever seen a gun in person (not even holstered on police irc), so seeing military armed with assault rifles when I got out of the airport in Cyprus was.. unexpected. It instantly made me really nauseous.

And it certainly cemented my belief that our police should continue not being armed by default.

No I'm advocating for the right of citizens to bear arms; a government should fear the working class; arming the populace assists this.
To quote Geore Orwell "The rifle on the wall of the labourers cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy"

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I mean.. You could achieve that same fear via an actually functioning democracy. But I guess needless death is the easier road.

 

[Deleted member 4247]

No I'm advocating for the right of citizens to bear arms; a government should fear the working class; arming the populace assists this.
To quote Geore Orwell "The rifle on the wall of the labourers cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy"

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That sounds insane.

 

[GaimeGuy]

No I'm advocating for the right of citizens to bear arms; a government should fear the working class; arming the populace assists this.
To quote Geore Orwell "The rifle on the wall of the labourers cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy"

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Neither the government nor the public should fear each other. They're supposed to be interconnected. If you're trying to make one fear the other, you've already lost

 

[Klyka]

No I'm advocating for the right of citizens to bear arms; a government should fear the working class; arming the populace assists this.
To quote Geore Orwell "The rifle on the wall of the labourers cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy"

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Do people in America really see their elected government as "the enemy" like this?
I can understand this in extreme situations like with Trump and his ilk but is this a constant state of thinking where US citizen actually believe that them having guns in any shape or form gives the government some kind of pause when inacting a new law or something? Like "oh man we really want to fuck them over on taxes but...damn they got all these guns, we better not..."? Cause it's obviously not happening, lol.
It's exceedingly funny to me how Americans believe that their "right to bear arms" has even the slightest bit of weight behind it. Like, it clearly doesn't. The entire country is getting fucked over continously for decades and at no time has the population gone "welp,time to bear those arms and fix this!".
It's like a running joke at this point. Like a pill to swallow before going to bed so you can sleep calmly. "I COULD do something about this at any time!!...I got my guns!!...I COULD do something...that makes me...happy and content....zzzZZZZ"

 

[entremet]

I thought private businesses could refuse weapons in their establishments? Or does state rule override that?

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They can. Some private businesses may not have a problem. Also DQ is franchise, so it's up the franchise owner.

 

[lilpump]

Do people in America really see their elected government as "the enemy" like this?
I can understand this in extreme situations like with Trump and his ilk but is this a constant state of thinking where US citizen actually believe that them having guns in any shape or form gives the government some kind of pause when inacting a new law or something? Like "oh man we really want to fuck them over on taxes but...damn they got all these guns, we better not..."? Cause it's obviously not happening, lol.
It's exceedingly funny to me how Americans believe that their "right to bear arms" has even the slightest bit of weight behind it. Like, it clearly doesn't. The entire country is getting fucked over continously for decades and at no time has the population gone "welp,time to bear those arms and fix this!".
It's like a running joke at this point. Like a pill to swallow before going to bed so you can sleep calmly. "I COULD do something about this at any time!!...I got my guns!!...I COULD do something...that makes me...happy and content....zzzZZZZ"

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Im not in america so your CrAzY AMeRIcAn shite doesnt apply

 

[King of FeatherCoin]

Being around guns isn't hurting you or infringing your rights. You have a choice to go somewhere else.

 

[Chamberlin]

Being around guns isn't hurting you or infringing your rights. You have a choice to go somewhere else.

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Do you suppose people should be able to walk around in public with explosives strapped to their chest then? Holding a big butcher's knife? A dirty syringe?

 

[UF_C]

Being around guns isn't hurting you or infringing your rights. You have a choice to go somewhere else.

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That's just my point. Why doesn't my right to not feel fear of bodily harm or death outweigh another's right to carry a gun? I shouldn't have to move states to feel my family isn't going to get shot up at an ice cream store for fucks sake.

 

[Bloodbathnbyond]

I thought about this every time I saw someone open carrying while I lived in Arizona. The general public in close proximity to these dudes (and it was always white dudes) are just supposed to hope that he's one of the "responsible ones". What if he isn't?

 

[King of FeatherCoin]

Do you suppose people should be able to walk around in public with explosives strapped to their chest then? Holding a big butcher's knife? A dirty syringe?

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It depends on the laws of your state, but don't strawman with silly arguments.

In any case, you have a right to bear arms as well.

 

[lilpump]

I thought about this every time I saw someone open carrying while I lived in Arizona. The general public in close proximity to these dudes (and it was always white dudes) are just supposed to hope that he's one of the "responsible ones". What if he isn't?

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What if you're a maniac who will strangle someone to death? Should we chop off your hands?

 

[Bloodbathnbyond]

What if you're a maniac who will strangle someone to death? Should we chop off your hands?

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You would be more inclined to think I am a strangler, if I walked around with a noose, I suppose.

 

[GaimeGuy]

It depends on the laws of your state, but don't strawman with silly arguments.

In any case, you have a right to bear arms as well.

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He has no right to bear arms against anyone who isn't an imminent threat to his well-being.

Why do we leave it up to him to decide when it's appropriate to commit homicide?

 

[King of FeatherCoin]

He has no right to bear arms against anyone who isn't an imminent threat to his well-being.

Why do we leave it up to him to decide when it's appropriate to commit homicide?

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Don't mess with people and they won't perceive you as a threat, simple as that.

Open carry shouldn't be viewed as scary if you're minding your own business.

 

[Chamberlin]

It depends on the laws of your state, but don't strawman with silly arguments.

In any case, you have a right to bear arms as well.

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I'm making no strawman and I'm not asking if it's illegal. I'm asking if you think these things should be, and for extra credit, why or why not?

 

[Deleted member 39374]

they did this with cigarettes, can't smoke here, can't smoke there/

Same should be done about guns, can't carry gun here, can't carry gun there

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The problem here is that there isn't a constitutional amendment that entitles people to smoke cigarettes.

 

[kittens]

I don't want to be around guns in general, but I especially don't want to be around cops and white supremacists with guns. They are not welcome around me or my communities.

 

[Bloodbathnbyond]

I don't want to be around guns in general, but I especially don't want to be around cops and white supremacists with guns. They are not welcome around me or my communities.

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That's my biggest issue about open carry. How do I know that person isn't some crazy racist who fantasizes about shooting minorities. As a minority, it doesn't make me feel safe at all.

 

[Barn]

I completely agree with you, OP. Took my friends' kids out to lunch one day and walked into a restaurant just as a whole basket of open carry nutjobs were "exercising their rights." Just by walking in the door, a little girl immediately had an AR-15 in her face. I've rarely been so infuriated. Surrounded by complete strangers with a dozen killing machines on their hips just because we stepped out for a little lunch. I felt like I was living in an absurd hellscape, and still do.

It's incredible how the NRA has effectively spearheaded this popular reinterpretation of the Second Amendment as some sort of god-given right to wave around mass-murder weapons, regardless of the human consequences. A depressing amount of Americans prioritize their fetish over the lives of children.