We need to talk about the whole self-cest thing.
We as viewers know that he who remains was telling the truth because we know Kang is coming in a future project. Sylvie doesn't have that headline. He reveals 3 major lies in that conversation alone. Utterly untrustworthy.
Her choice was purely motivated by revenge. But there are consequences.... not just for her.
infinite multiverses, infinite Kangs, even if they're not called Kang. You remove all of him you'll still have someone come along and do the same thing
Humanely? The dude sent his monster to eat all the other timelines. He continues to use said monster to prune his current timeline. That means he's killed countless people. Honestly, Kang would probably blush at that death count.Even with the added potential that he may be lying she still made the wrong choice. Plunge every multiverse into chaos and watch them all destroy each other or humanely prune a few branches here and there.
I thought that was exactly what this Kang was doing.I understand why she did it but I wish she and Loki had mulled it over a little more. If the main issue is that another Kang will come and destroy things, the third option seems to be ruling over the TVA and 'only' resetting timelines that get evil Kangs in them. Like, if he's born on Earth, any timeline without Earth is fine.
Not exactly. As I understand it, he has erased absolutely every timeline that will ever get any Nathaniel Richards at all. Which seems to be pretty much all of them?
Humanely? The dude sent his monster to eat all the other timelines. He continues to use said monster to prune his current timeline. That means he's killed countless people. Honestly, Kang would probably blush at that death count.
Like, it's amazing how people just believe this literal mass murdering dictator that has made himself God is making the best choices for everybody and only has one motive. Of course we know that's not completely true because of the missing statue.
He's a mass murderer only keeping things "secure" for a select group of people that were lucky enough to be "born" in the right timeline. He's also dictating and controlling the lives and actions of absolutely everybody. Nobody can do anything that this man doesn't agree with.
Sounds kind of familiar to me. Somebody else said it in this thread, it's like the end game of Conservatism.
Ultimate Conservatism.
I look forward to the hot takes later on when Kang is killing Avengers that "they were right and Slyvie was wrong" while conveniently ignoring that kazillions of people are now alive thanks to the multiverse being reborn.
I have to imagine that on some level HWR knew this was how things would play out. He probably knows Sylphie better than Sylphie knows Sylphie. He's been dictating and directing her whole life.Also thinking about it, He who remains gave Slyvie kind of a shit choice. There was just no way she would become the very thing that destroyed her life.
That's not what HWR said as far as I recall. He said that a lot of people were dying, more or less. His solution was to just end all lives except the lives in his own universe. He's a selfish prick.This is a WILD stretch.
And there's no reason not to take Kang at his word, either the TVA exists or you risk ending all life everywhere, forever.
I think of it kind of like this:
Imagine if there was a World War 3, or hell, let's just say it's World War 2. All of these countries are fighting amongst each other. Countless amounts of people are dying, it's millions or more. One country comes to a conclusion. It's best that their country survives, even if it means all other countries no longer exist. They have the ability to make that happen, and they do. So now, only that one country exists on Earth and the people in this one country are safe. Every other country and all the people that lived in them are now gone and dead.
But, that's not all! To ensure that the other countries never come back, one person gets to completely decide the fate of every single soul that lives in that country. If any of them step out of line, they are instantly murdered.
Some of y'all are really voting for that shit?
That's not what HWR said as far as I recall. He said that a lot of people were dying, more or less. His solution was to just end all lives except the lives in his own universe. He's a selfish prick.
actually I think my analogy is spot on. I'm sure the people in my hypothetical country could come to the same conclusion. It's better that they live rather than a nuclear war that annihilates the entire human species. So, they decided that them, and only them will live, and it's for the best of the human species.No because this is a disingenuous comparison.
Kang didn't setup the TVA to save a few million lives. He didn't even set it up to save a few billion lives. He set it up to prevent the annihilations of ALL LIFE in the entire multi-verse. Those are the stakes. Either prune timelines or let EVERYONE in the entire mutiverse, in every dimension, ever, to most likely die with no hope of life ever coming back again.
And his control of life within the timeline is unknowing to everyone involved. Everyone believes they have free will, they just don't know that they don't. And honestly the existence of free will cannot even be proven in our own world as a number of scientific studies have shown that are neurochemistry determines our decisions such that we actually do not have free will. Every decision is already determined in our brains and we are powerless to stop it. But, that's another topic.
The point is that your analogy is in no way equal to the dilemma. At its face, it's a choice between letting some life live or letting ALL LIFE die.
actually I think my analogy is spot on. I'm sure the people in my hypothetical country could come to the same conclusion. It's better that they live rather than a nuclear war that annihilates the entire human species. So, they decided that them, and only them will live, and it's for the best of the human species.
There is so much information we don't know, and you're just assuming HWR is some kind of protector, when in reality, maybe he just wanted to win. He said as much that he won. It could be as simple as that. I have no reason to believe he's completely being honest about that it would be the end of all life, and certainly these two characters wouldn't either.
Maybe HE just wanted to be the only dictator. And it worked.
He's apparently been doing this for time immemorial. He's basically gone crazy. And even he admits that in the end, if he dies it doesn't matter, he'll just be back anyway. There is very little at stake for him personally. He probably just got bored and decided to try something different.He wanted to be the only dictator yet we see at the end he neither cares if he lives, dies, or someone else takes over the dictatorship? It's not an apt analogy because even nuclear war that wipes out the human species doesn't wipe out all life on Earth and doesn't wipe out all life in the entire universe and all other universes. It's not just human life we're talking about, we're talking ALL LIFE EVERYHWERE. All life in the universe. In every other universe. In every other dimension. The end of everything, forever. This is what he explicitly states is the result of a multiversal war.
Remember, Oliath is born as a result of all this extradimensional war. So you can imagine that if the war continues unchecked a number of Oliaths are born which literally eat Space and Time leading to the end of all life in all universes. So yeah, there is zero reason to believe he's bullshitting. He even states that he's been through a million difference scenarios and this is the only option that works.
I think this whole debate is dumb for many reasons, but an additional wrench in this argument that I don't think anyone is considering is that life and death don't carry the same meaning in a temporal context.Kang didn't setup the TVA to save a few million lives. He didn't even set it up to save a few billion lives. He set it up to prevent the annihilations of ALL LIFE in the entire multi-verse. Those are the stakes. Either prune timelines or let EVERYONE in the entire mutiverse, in every dimension, ever, to most likely die with no hope of life ever coming back again.
This is what Peaceful Kang thought, but he never considered other options. With people like the Avengers, and especially Dr. Strange around, there has to be another way than what he was doing, which is genocide.This is a WILD stretch.
And there's no reason not to take Kang at his word, either the TVA exists or you risk ending all life everywhere, forever.
Good point, good point.This is what Peaceful Kang thought, but he never considered other options. With people like the Avengers, and especially Dr. Strange around, there has to be another way than what he was doing, which is genocide.
Thanos thought he was doing the right thing but was clearly insane and self righteous and had a savior complex. This Kang is a bit different because he comes off as desperate and truly does feel like he is taking the most peaceful solution, while also being extremely level-headed and rational. He just gave up on exploring other options, which you can sympathize with to an extent, but is also clearly his biggest flaw and mistake which Sylvie wasn't having any of.
I think this whole debate is dumb for many reasons, but an additional wrench in this argument that I don't think anyone is considering is that life and death don't carry the same meaning in a temporal context.
Okay, so if you assume that I normal, monogamous dude and I don't cheat on my wife, if she is the only person I have children with, then I am effectively eliminating all the various versions of reality where I have children with other women and thus make other children. Hell, even with regards to my only wife, if she and I decide to have children next year as opposed to this year, then I am eliminating the children I'd have that year from reality. And in some other timeline, I made different choices and those children exist.
The question is, if I eliminate a timeline, then are those kids being killed? Can they be killed if they were never actually born? Because in the sense of what HWR does, what we see of Loki's are remnants of destroyed realities, so they experience the loss of their universes in a traditional human sense of having had a familiarity with something and then it being gone, but that's because they are being who were in that timeline who had those things and lost them. In our world, if someone gets murdered, then the world around them, be it family or friends or even just the funeral director that has to take care of things deal with the loss.
But if they are eliminating an entire alternate timeline, no one does. Those people aren't killed because they never lived. They never existed at all. And I think if this were a smarter show, it would tackle that part of it, that these pruned timelines aren't aren't beings who get murdered. If this were a smarter show, it would bring this up since it's an interesting aspect of viewing time from a nonlinear perspective.
He's apparently been doing this for time immemorial. He's basically gone crazy. And even he admits that in the end, if he dies it doesn't matter, he'll just be back anyway. There is very little at stake for him personally. He probably just got bored and decided to try something different.
Even with the reasoning you presented, it's still the exact same thing. Mass murder of everybody, so that a few can live. One man gets to decide that.I agree with you that this isn't just a human consequence, it's a consequence of absolute everything. But again, we don't know that what HWR has done is the best solution, or even the only solution. For all we know, HWR created the monster in some way by the shit he was up to.
See that's the problem when there is only one man that controls everything. He gets to set the narrative. He gets to decide what information to bring to the table. We have to assume he is telling the truth because, what else choice is there?
But in reality, maybe he's the bad guy all along. He even called himself a "conqueror". Maybe he wasn't referring to other variants, but to himself. He could very well be a Kang like figure, and, we just met what happens to a figure like that after eons of isolation due to spending eternity making sure that he and only he gets to be at the top.
I think this whole debate is dumb for many reasons, but an additional wrench in this argument that I don't think anyone is considering is that life and death don't carry the same meaning in a temporal context.
Okay, so if you assume that I normal, monogamous dude and I don't cheat on my wife, if she is the only person I have children with, then I am effectively eliminating all the various versions of reality where I have children with other women and thus make other children. Hell, even with regards to my only wife, if she and I decide to have children next year as opposed to this year, then I am eliminating the children I'd have that year from reality. And in some other timeline, I made different choices and those children exist.
The question is, if I eliminate a timeline, then are those kids being killed? Can they be killed if they were never actually born? Because in the sense of what HWR does, what we see of Loki's are remnants of destroyed realities, so they experience the loss of their universes in a traditional human sense of having had a familiarity with something and then it being gone, but that's because they are being who were in that timeline who had those things and lost them. In our world, if someone gets murdered, then the world around them, be it family or friends or even just the funeral director that has to take care of things deal with the loss.
But if they are eliminating an entire alternate timeline, no one does. Those people aren't killed because they never lived. They never existed at all. And I think if this were a smarter show, it would tackle that part of it, that these pruned timelines aren't aren't beings who get murdered. If this were a smarter show, it would bring this up since it's an interesting aspect of viewing time from a nonlinear perspective.
This is what Peaceful Kang thought, but he never considered other options. With people like the Avengers, and especially Dr. Strange around, there has to be another way than what he was doing, which is genocide.
Thanos thought he was doing the right thing but was clearly insane and self righteous and had a savior complex. This Kang is a bit different because he comes off as desperate and truly does feel like he is taking the most peaceful solution, while also being extremely level-headed and rational. He just gave up on exploring other options, which you can sympathize with to an extent, but is also clearly his biggest flaw and mistake which Sylvie wasn't having any of.
Kang is a god in a sense of the word. Free will is what he dictates and no one knows any different. It's layers and layers of debate on different topics, but at it's core it's basically: Kill me and you unleash mass chaos spread across time and space or take over and keep order.Humanely? The dude sent his monster to eat all the other timelines. He continues to use said monster to prune his current timeline. That means he's killed countless people. Honestly, Kang would probably blush at that death count.
Like, it's amazing how people just believe this literal mass murdering dictator that has made himself God is making the best choices for everybody and only has one motive. Of course we know that's not completely true because of the missing statue.
He's a mass murderer only keeping things "secure" for a select group of people that were lucky enough to be "born" in the right timeline. He's also dictating and controlling the lives and actions of absolutely everybody. Nobody can do anything that this man doesn't agree with.
Sounds kind of familiar to me. Somebody else said it in this thread, it's like the end game of Conservatism.
Ultimate Conservatism.
I look forward to the hot takes later on when Kang is killing Avengers that "they were right and Slyvie was wrong" while conveniently ignoring that kazillions of people are now alive thanks to the multiverse being reborn.