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Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,371
Another angle to Gaza genocide I'm surprised folks haven't mentioned: The cynical electoralism argument isn't even self consistent. Entirely possible the genocide is gonna create another generation of Palestinian Americans as folks are pushed from their home region. Wouldn't you rather those folks not have a older Cuban-American in Florida style grudge on your party should that happen strategically? Entirely possible this could eventually swing Michigan to the right in the worst case scenario version of that event where all these folks cluster in one place due to family connections and we see this demo understandably go GOP in several years due to this policy blunder. Feels like very short sighted thinking even if you think the youth don't care about foreign policy & the super pro-Israel folks are the currently larger voting bloc in the relevant swing regions.
TBH I don't really fear Palestineans running to the Republicans when the Republicans are using Palestinean as a slur and actively supporting their genocide as well, what I really worry about is a vicious cycle of social isolationism and anger, reversing trends of the last several decades of improvement toward addressing America's Islamaphobia and better inclusivity, including possibly risking pockets of radicalization.

Which in turn would lead to even more racism, isolationism, and internalized Islamaphobia toward Palestineans and Arab Americans(cause lets be real, to even the vast majority of Americans, MENA people are all just the same, that is if they even bother to notice them as people in all this and aren't already talking through them and caricaturing this movement as simply online leftists they already hate so as to justify erasure) which leads to more resentment and isolation and the cycle risks repeating.

which kinda like in the vietnam era, that's the catch-22 centrist Democrats will gladly lean into: what are you gonna do, vote for the other guy that wants to kill you harder! or what, not vote at all???? Well that now makes you the absolute worst POS imaginable because look at all these people I actually do care enough about to demand baseline rights and recognition for that you will harm!!!

When centrist Democrats decide your humanity and genocide is not a priority for them, they can simply use the broken system already failing to represent their interests to cynically bludgeon you with in the name of protecting those who's interests are still being concerned with inside the system. So guess what, now you're the bad guy!
 
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Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,037
Another angle to Gaza genocide I'm surprised folks haven't mentioned: The cynical electoralism argument isn't even self consistent. Entirely possible the genocide is gonna create another generation of Palestinian Americans as folks are pushed from their home region. Wouldn't you rather those folks not have a older Cuban-American in Florida style grudge on your party should that happen strategically? Entirely possible this could eventually swing Michigan to the right in the worst case scenario version of that event where all these folks cluster in one place due to family connections and we see this demo understandably go GOP in several years due to this policy blunder. Feels like very short sighted thinking even if you think the youth don't care about foreign policy & the super pro-Israel folks are the currently larger voting bloc in the relevant swing regions.

The Cubano-Latino shift to the right in Florida in particular is owed to the horrifying experiences immigrants and their families have had in failed communist and socialist states. Pro-Capitalism and anti-Socialist sentiment makes them very easy allies with Republicans, even in the face of Republican hostility to "illegals" and the racist implications of same.

The Palestinians may be disappointed and disaffected by the Kamala campaign, as they hope for a stronger position & a voice at the DNC and don't get it. But there's good reason they weren''t trying to get speech time at the RNC: They'd get laughed out of the building. There's a good reason that most of the sentiment that gets out of Palestine surrounding the 2024 US Election is anti-Trump first and foremost. The same reason that ineffectual white neoliberal democrats consistently pull black support: The other side is a nightmare for them.

With President Donald Trump, there will be no ceasefire. No cessation of arms. No negotiations, protests or reprimands of any kind. And there certainly won't be space for Palestinian refugees. They know this. The Democrats know this, which is why they are doing their best to avoid the issue with the large block of Pro-Israeli voters and pro-Israeli media. They will get the majority of progressive and Muslim votes by default, regardless of their silence on this issue. They need some of those other votes in key states to win the election at all, and they can nothing if they do not win.

Electoral pragmatism is essential in the electoral college with our flawed media. You can do two things about it: Protest vote to levels that make your viewpoint politically unviable to take for granted (not enough of us are going with you on that one, so you're working against yourself by doing it) or push this administration as hard as we can after we elect her.
 
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Jeb

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
2,239
When centrist Democrats decide your humanity and genocide is not a priority for them, they can simply use the broken system already failing to represent their interests to cynically bludgeon you with in the name of protecting those who's interests are still being concerned with inside the system. So guess what, now you're the bad guy!
Yep, they are weaponizing their opposition against us.

They're official position is "whatcha gonna do? Vote for Trump?"

push this administration as hard as we can after we elect her.
So after all we lose all leverage and power to pressure them?

When they have no reason to listen to us?

Fuck that.

Every time, they tell us to wait, "this election is too important" and "its not the right time".

I hear every time that it is not the right time.

Thousands die by the month but they tell me its not the right time.

When the party that is arming, financing and protecting the slaughter is needs the public's support, its not the right time.

When is the right time? When the entire population of Gaza is wiped off?

As an arab man, I've grown resentful of so many left leaning circles, our suffering, our slaughter is taken for granted, low on the priority list.

So many people drop their masks and reveal themselves as my enemies.

We are not human sacrifices to your political system.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,055
Yep, they are weaponizing their opposition against us.

They're official position is "whatcha gonna do? Vote for Trump?"


So after all we lose all leverage and power to pressure them?

When they have no reason to listen to us?

Fuck that.

Every time, they tell us to wait, "this election is too important" and "its not the right time".

I hear every time that it is not the right time.

Thousands die by the month but they tell me its not the right time.

When the party that is arming, financing and protecting the slaughter is needs the public's support, its not the right time.

When is the right time? When the entire population of Gaza is wiped off?

As an arab man, I've grown resentful of so many left leaning circles, our suffering, our slaughter is taken for granted, low on the priority list.

So many people drop their masks and reveal themselves as my enemies.

We are not human sacrifices to your political system.

Serious question... Do you think Trump and his administration will be the better option to address your domestic and international concerns or are you simply boycotting politics in general?
 

JinnAxel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
501
Serious question... Do you think Trump and his administration will be the better option to address your domestic and international concerns or are you simply boycotting politics in general?
This counterpoint is always so disingenuous. Obviously, Trump would be worse. But if the party that's normally more amenable to listen to reason isn't listening to reason, what do you even do. This is how people lose faith in the political process to begin with.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
This counterpoint is always so disingenuous. Obviously, Trump would be worse. But if the party that's normally more amenable to listen to reason isn't listening to reason, what do you even do. This is how people lose faith in the political process to begin with.

What do you do if the fallout of taking an action that could possibly halt Isreal but can't guarantee it would also cost you the election and then condemn Palestinians to total annihilation under Trump.
 

coffeelvr

Member
Nov 8, 2022
766
After Kamala is elected, she can move more to the left. Given her unique nomination process, I think she's more receptive to the party base's public opinion. The first sign of that is her selecting Walz. If she were to ignore the base, she knows someone from the base can challenge her in 28. That's why I think she will be better on Gaza, but she has to be very careful about communicating it because of the election, and since she's a woman, she has to appear stronger to voters. I do believe she will be a lot better on this issue.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,622
What do you do if the fallout of taking an action that could possibly halt Isreal but can't guarantee it would also cost you the election and then condemn Palestinians to total annihilation under Trump.

Hypotheticals are worthless. For all we know staying the course with BIden's policy on this could help Trump and cost her the election. We would never know unless she loses certain places do to uncommitted.
 

RainsJitt

Member
May 14, 2024
2,279
What do you do if the fallout of taking an action that could possibly halt Isreal but can't guarantee it would also cost you the election and then condemn Palestinians to total annihilation under Trump.
This is clearly the election Calculus that both the DNC and the Harris campaign did. It both explains the DNC not allowing the speaker and also explains the content of Harris' speech in regards to Israel. I was actually surprised to see the democrats doing the smart thing instead of the righteous thing this time. Winning this election should always be the priority.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Hypotheticals are worthless. For all we know staying the course with BIden's policy on this could help Trump and cost her the election. We would never know unless she loses certain places do to uncommitted.

Thats fair, I dont mean to suggest the right actions are being taken either. Theres a very real concern that the demo of likely voters are higher in number of those who have strong support of Isreal because of generations of Zionist national politics

I just am personally frozen by whats been happening and do worry that beyond calling for the war to end and suggesting a two state solution taking actionable measures like withdrawing aide to Isreal could lose enough voters to lose the election.

I dont think I know what the right answer is because the reality is if Harris loses its going to mean far worse things for Palestine, Ukraine, Taiwan and US. Id love to avoid genocide here if we can

Doing the right thing should be easy but we arent and I hate that theres the possibility that it could somehow make things worse.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,622
Thats fair, I dont mean to suggest the right actions are being taken either. Theres a very real concern that the demo of likely voters are higher in number of those who have strong support of Isreal because of generations of Zionist national politics

I just am personally frozen by whats been happening and do worry that beyond calling for the war to end and suggesting a two state solution taking actionable measures like withdrawing aide to Isreal could lose enough voters to lose the election.

I dont think I know what the right answer is because the reality is if Harris loses its going to mean far worse things for Palestine, Ukraine, Taiwan and US. Id love to avoid genocide here if we can

Doing the right thing should be easy but we arent and I hate that theres the possibility that it could somehow make things worse.

Among progressives, young people and arab americans it's very unpopular among center right and right wingers it's popular. Among centrists it's probably a toss up. It depends on who she is more interested in courting. Based on the last day of the DNC she seems to be focussed on right winger never Trumper types.

She can't have it all though. If you espouse things that speak to right wingers then you disenfranchise others. For so long Dems have run to the center out of fear and it's paid off. I just wonder if and when that play hurts more than it helps. We'll see.

For me the genocide in Gaza is a watershed moment. A crime against humanity furnished by the Biden Administration. It has so many negative cascading effects throughout the world and if Harris wins and she STILL doesn't do anything then I hope they don't just move on to "we need to support her regardless or unamed GoP candidate might win and be worse!" Trump is supposed to be a unique danger and that is why Dems are being given so much rope on the genocide. If it just moves indefinitely to whomever the next GoP candidate is then that's bullshit.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
Among progressives, young people and arab americans it's very unpopular among center right and right wingers it's popular. Among centrists it's probably a toss up. It depends on who she is more interested in courting. Based on the last day of the DNC she seems to be focussed on right winger never Trumper types.

She can't have it all though. If you espouse things that speak to right wingers then you disenfranchise others. For so long Dems have run to the center out of fear and it's paid off. I just wonder if and when that play hurts more than it helps. We'll see.

For me the genocide in Gaza is a watershed moment. A crime against humanity furnished by the Biden Administration. It has so many negative cascading effects throughout the world and if Harris wins and she STILL doesn't do anything then I hope they don't just move on to "we need to support her regardless or unamed GoP candidate might win and be worse!" Trump is supposed to be a unique danger and that is why Dems are being given so much rope on the genocide. If it just moves indefinitely to whomever the next GoP candidate is then that's bullshit.

I mostly agree with you here except outside of Gaza her platform is one of the most progressive we have ever had just as Biden's was. I do not agree with this whole courting the right that the left which I consider myself as seems to have.

The DNC made a play for the soul of America this was a brief once in a generation shot at taking back parts of the country that we had lost since Reagan, along with the manyle of patriotism. All while having the most progressive platform a Presidential candidate has had in modern history.

As for how we need to respond on day one I just sincerely hope everyone saying we have to wait for the election doesnt suddenly forget the election is over. If she wins we need to push harder than ever and must hold their feet to the fire, and I do understand why it feels prudent to say we can really only do that now when we have power with our vote.

It really feels like an impossible situation at times.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
5,325
What do you do if the fallout of taking an action that could possibly halt Isreal but can't guarantee it would also cost you the election and then condemn Palestinians to total annihilation under Trump.
At this point it means going from 9.5 on annihilation scale to 10. I don't think anybody has fever dreams about Trump being better on the issue, but just a passing look at the news in the last 10 months would show things that BIden's admin allowed and supported, such as:
1) Complete and utter destruction of the Gaza Strip, even then the war ends it would take years to rebuild it.
2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's now considered one of the deadliest if not the deadliest conflict for children in modern history, back in November an average of 136 children were killed per day.
3) BIden's admin didn't do anything to stop the biggest landgrab in decades that happened in the West Bank. And there's still no consequences for illegal settlers or organizations that participate in building those illegal settlements.
4) A threat of conflict growing into a full blown regional war.

Even with all that Dems could've easily win a lot of uncommited votes by simply allowing a Palestinian speaker on stage, and if you've read that speech it's the most kumbaya piece of text possible given the situation. Didn't happen. It's hard for the people to have a hope that something better is going to happen when the party that claims to represent them also makes them invisible.

Hopefully Harris will do something that will show these people that they're seen and heard before elections.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
At this point it means going from 9.5 on annihilation scale to 10. I don't think anybody has fever dreams about Trump being better on the issue, but just a passing look at the news in the last 10 months would show things that BIden's admin allowed and supported, such as:
1) Complete and utter destruction of the Gaza Strip, even then the war ends it would take years to rebuild it.
2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's now considered one of the deadliest if not the deadliest conflict for children in modern history, back in November an average of 136 children were killed per day.
3) BIden's admin didn't do anything to stop the biggest landgrab in decades that happened in the West Bank. And there's still no consequences for illegal settlers or organizations that participate in building those illegal settlements.
4) A threat of conflict growing into a full blown regional war.

Even with all that Dems could've easily win a lot of uncommited votes by simply allowing a Palestinian speaker on stage, and if you've read that speech it's the most kumbaya piece of text possible given the situation. Didn't happen. It's hard for the people to have a hope that something better is going to happen when the party that claims to represent them also makes them invisible.

Hopefully Harris will do something that will show these people that they're seen and heard before elections.

I did read it and wished they had allowed the speaker as well. I dont disagree with anything youre saying I guess its just the fear of the unknown here that I find impossible.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,371
What do you do if the fallout of taking an action that could possibly halt Isreal but can't guarantee it would also cost you the election and then condemn Palestinians to total annihilation under Trump.
I could if I wanted to make the pretty easy counterpoint that despite Bibi's shortsightedness, Israel's genocide has a much smoother path to completion under an establishment Democratic administration than a Republican one. And Israel's influence in US politics are much better served with Harris winning.

Like Vietnam, a centrist Democrat engaging in the slaughter of innocents abroad is not going to be challenged from the left by the Republicans, at least not in any meaningful capacity. In fact, they will triangulate a Democratic hawk from the right by being MORE hawkish.

Meanwhile, party loyalist Democrats will buy into the baseline narratives because they will place greater trust in a Democratic president leading foreign policy than a Republican. They will be willing to go after their left flank to force capitulation to the Democratic status quo in the name of harm reduction. Contrast that with if it was a Republican, the whole of the Democratic Party would be much quicker to skepticism, criticism, and calls for course correction.

Like I guarantee you had Trump been in office during this period, the VAST majority of Democrats would be refusing to support sending offensive weapons to Bibi through back channels, would be losing their shit over Trump burying State Department reports that show clear evidence of Leahy Violations and war crimes that should trigger an arms embargo and targetted sanctions over humanitarian violations, demanding an immediate ceasefire, you'd have AOC at Columbia encampments decrying the authoritarian language of Trump trying to justify state violence to repress them, and the majority of Democrats refusing to authorize bills that go beyond arming Israel beyond basic defensive weaponry, and that would be the platform of the Democratic challenger going into November. Standing against AIPAC likely becomes a mainstream position.

But instead you have Biden that has done all that and core Democrats and party loyal supporters largely went along with it. And by going along with it it has done to Harris what happened to Hubert Humphrey. You have a bloodthirsty incumbent refusing to correct bad foreign policy and end suffering out of some toxically misguided and out-of-touch notions and a core set of party supporters comprising the majority of Democrats refusing to really stand in strong opposition to that policy. So it leaves the VP that is attempting to win election stuck in no man's land. Where had enough centrists broke away and supported the protestors, it would force the candidate to come over to their side faster and more holistically, but absent that they are just carrying forward a genocidal status quo and looking to inherit that dynamic.

And what of Harris? Is she going to suddenly want to burn her political capital on defending Palestineans? Will those core Democrats refusing to vote uncommitted and rather finger wag Palestineans to fall in line suddenly feel now is the time to tear down the first black female president in the name of demanding an end to a genocide they have ignored successfully so far?

Call me crazy, but my guess is that they wont. And my guess is that Harris, feeling that she needs to get other things done with what will be at best a slim majority wont want to burn capital on going to war with AIPAC, Republicans, and the narratives the party has fed itself for nearly a year. So Harris will continue the same status quo dynamic and Democrats will fall in line and tell anti-genociders that Harris has a mandate and that detractors are serving far-right conservatives still.
 
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Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,622
I could if I wanted to make the pretty easy counterpoint that despite Bibi's shortsightedness, Israel's genocide has a much smoother path to completion under an establishment Democratic administration than a Republican one. And Israel's influence in US politics are much better served with Harris winning.

Like Vietnam, a centrist Democrat engaging in the slaughter of innocents abroad is not going to be challenged from the left by the Republicans, at least not in any meaningful capacity. In fact, they will triangulate a Democratic hawk from the right by being MORE hawkish.

Meanwhile, party loyalist Democrats will buy into the baseline narratives because they will place greater trust in a Democratic president leading foreign policy than a Republican. They will be willing to go after their left flank to force capitulation to the Democratic status quo in the name of harm reduction. Contrast that with if it was a Republican, the whole of the Democratic Party would be much quicker to skepticism, criticism, and calls for course correction.

Like I guarantee you had Trump been in office during this period, the VAST majority of Democrats would be refusing to support sending offensive weapons to Bibi through back channels, would be losing their shit over Trump burying State Department reports that show clear evidence of Leahy Violations and war crimes that should trigger an arms embargo and targetted sanctions over humanitarian violations, demanding an immediate ceasefire, you'd have AOC at Columbia encampments decrying the authoritarian language of Trump trying to justify state violence to repress them, and the majority of Democrats refusing to authorize bills that go beyond arming Israel beyond basic defensive weaponry, and that would be the platform of the Democratic challenger going into November. Standing against AIPAC likely becomes a mainstream position.

But instead you have Biden that has done all that and core Democrats and party loyal supporters largely went along with it. And by going along with it it has done to Harris what happened to Hubert Humphrey. You have a bloodthirsty incumbent refusing to correct bad foreign policy and end suffering out of some toxically misguided and out-of-touch notions and a core set of party supporters refusing to really stand in strong opposition to that policy. So it leaves the VP that is attempting to win election stuck in no man's land. Where had enough centrists broke away and supported the protestors, it would force the candidate to come over to their side faster and more holistically, but absent that they are just carrying forward a genocidal status quo and look to inherit that dynamic.

And what of Harris? Is she going to suddenly want to burn her political capital on defending Palestineans? Will those centrists suddenly feel now is the time to tear down the first black female president in the name of demanding an end to a genocide they have ignored successfully so far?

Call me crazy, but my guess is that they wont. And my guess is that Harris, feeling that she needs to get other things done wont want to budn capital on Palestineans and Democrats will fall in line and so we will get a continuation of the same dynamic currently in place.

Real and true!
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,145
I could if I wanted to make the pretty easy counterpoint that despite Bibi's shortsightedness, Israel's genocide has a much smoother path to completion under an establishment Democratic administration than a Republican one. And Israel's influence in US politics are much better served with Harris winning.

Like Vietnam, a centrist Democrat engaging in the slaughter of innocents abroad is not going to be challenged from the left by the Republicans, at least not in any meaningful capacity. In fact, they will triangulate a Democratic hawk from the right by being MORE hawkish.

Meanwhile, party loyalist Democrats will buy into the baseline narratives because they will place greater trust in a Democratic president leading foreign policy than a Republican. They will be willing to go after their left flank to force capitulation to the Democratic status quo in the name of harm reduction. Contrast that with if it was a Republican, the whole of the Democratic Party would be much quicker to skepticism, criticism, and calls for course correction.

Like I guarantee you had Trump been in office during this period, the VAST majority of Democrats would be refusing to support sending offensive weapons to Bibi through back channels, would be losing their shit over Trump burying State Department reports that show clear evidence of Leahy Violations and war crimes that should trigger an arms embargo and targetted sanctions over humanitarian violations, demanding an immediate ceasefire, you'd have AOC at Columbia encampments decrying the authoritarian language of Trump trying to justify state violence to repress them, and the majority of Democrats refusing to authorize bills that go beyond arming Israel beyond basic defensive weaponry, and that would be the platform of the Democratic challenger going into November. Standing against AIPAC likely becomes a mainstream position.

But instead you have Biden that has done all that and core Democrats and party loyal supporters largely went along with it. And by going along with it it has done to Harris what happened to Hebert Humphrey. You have a bloodthirsty incumbent refusing to correct bad foreign policy and end suffering out of some toxically misguided and out-of-touch notions and a core set of party supporters refusing to really stand in strong opposition to that policy. So it leaves the VP that is attempting to win election stuck in no man's land. Where had enough centrists broke away and supported the protestors, it would force the candidate to come over to their side faster and more holistically, but absent that they are just carrying forward a genocidal status quo and look to inherit that dynamic.

And what of Harris? Is she going to suddenly want to burn her political capital on defending Palestineans? Will those centrists suddenly feel now is the time to tear down the first black female president in the name of demanding an end to a genocide they have ignored successfully so far?

Call me crazy, but my guess is that they wont. And my guess is that Harris, feeling that she needs to get other things done wont want to budn capital on Palestineans and Democrats will fall in line and so we will get a continuation of the same dynamic currently in place.

Entirely agree with the bolded.

While I agree in general it totally ignores the reality of a future Trump term. We will have no political power as a people anymore. Trump will be turned autocrat and protesters will be killed. This is his plan and it will happen if he wins so we dont live in a reality where this situation is even a consideration.

There is no better situation for Gaza under Trump maybe a republican of the past without the current political landscape but not any longer.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,371
Entirely agree with the bolded.

While I agree in general it totally ignores the reality of a future Trump term. We will have no political power as a people anymore. Trump will be turned autocrat and protesters will be killed. This is his plan and it will happen if he wins so we dont live in a reality where this situation is even a consideration.

There is no better situation for Gaza under Trump maybe a republican of the past without the current political landscape but not any longer.

And unless party loyalist democrats do more right now to force a central change in the dynamics around this genocide, the domestic situation would be worse under Trump, but I dont see the situation in Palestine changing at all for either on the current path. The difference will just be less obfuscation and false sentiments you'd get under Democrats.

And as with Vietnam and Biden's age, you do not win over voters through bullying, shaming, gaslighting, or logic'ing people into alignment in lieu of actually addressing their concerns.

If the majority of Democrats prefer not to stand with Palestineans out of some cold electoral calculation, that is their right, but there needs to be an acknowledgment that those acts have consequences. That in serving as a backstop to prevent enough pressure to blow up the current party posture and make Harris feel she wont be able to govern effectively without meaningfully addressing this issue, that refusal to stand as strong allies is serving to lock out that concern being addressed by the Democratic party and that will mean most of those voters will walk away in response.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,055
This counterpoint is always so disingenuous. Obviously, Trump would be worse. But if the party that's normally more amenable to listen to reason isn't listening to reason, what do you even do. This is how people lose faith in the political process to begin with.

Than join in demonstrations for the causes that mean something for you. Donate to the causes. Support them, but simply laughing at the process and stepping aside isn't the way.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
19,044
Not to wishcast, but even if Harris did have an Israeli/Palestine policy that was even slightly different than Biden's, wouldn't she have to wait until the lame duck period in order to announce it? She can't undermine an admin that she's currently working under.
 

JinnAxel

Member
Oct 30, 2017
501
Than join in demonstrations for the causes that mean something for you. Donate to the causes. Support them, but simply laughing at the process and stepping aside isn't the way.
This entire discourse is happening because that's exactly what we're doing, only to be met with people saying that we'll be the reason for Trump winning, or our concerns are politically inconvenient.

It's patronizing, disingenuous, and dangerously pushes otherwise left leaning voters to feel their opinions don't matter.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,148
Not to wishcast, but even if Harris did have an Israeli/Palestine policy that was even slightly different than Biden's, wouldn't she have to wait until the lame duck period in order to announce it? She can't undermine an admin that she's currently working under.

That is probable/likely, but I also think something like allowing a 2min speech at the DNC from a sitting representative who is palestinian could have been a good way to thread that needle.
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,371
Than join in demonstrations for the causes that mean something for you. Donate to the causes. Support them, but simply laughing at the process and stepping aside isn't the way.

Our system is such that if the current two parties are not sufficiently reflecting your values and positions, the only avenue left is to apply pressure by shaking the tent from the outside, threatening or withholding support, and demanding the most amenable party to place those concerns meaningfully inside the tent.

It seemed like the same Democrats telling Palestineans to fall in line without having any demands being met, saying that you have to accept the binary as is and ask nothing more, are often the same people that less than a month ago were saying voters needed to accept the binary choice of 81-year-old Biden or Trump and fall in line because *list the excuses*



Not to wishcast, but even if Harris did have an Israeli/Palestine policy that was even slightly different than Biden's, wouldn't she have to wait until the lame duck period in order to announce it? She can't undermine an admin that she's currently working under.
Hubert Humphery ultimately broke from Johnson on Vietnam policy less than a month out from the election when anti-war sentiment and silent opposition became stronger within the party and even amongst Republicans. However, it happened so late most people felt it came off as empty(even though Humphery had been privately against the war for years and it got him iced out by Johnson), there wasn't enough time to mobilize and peel off enough anti-war Republicans, and a lot of status quo defenses had set in within the Party so stronger unification didn't come together.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,037
Yep, they are weaponizing their opposition against us.

They're official position is "whatcha gonna do? Vote for Trump?"


So after all we lose all leverage and power to pressure them?

When they have no reason to listen to us?

Fuck that.

Every time, they tell us to wait, "this election is too important" and "its not the right time".

I hear every time that it is not the right time.

Thousands die by the month but they tell me its not the right time.

When the party that is arming, financing and protecting the slaughter is needs the public's support, its not the right time.

When is the right time? When the entire population of Gaza is wiped off?

As an arab man, I've grown resentful of so many left leaning circles, our suffering, our slaughter is taken for granted, low on the priority list.

So many people drop their masks and reveal themselves as my enemies.

We are not human sacrifices to your political system.

You have no leverage now.

Nothing you do will matter when it comes to this campaigns narratives. Nothing. The overwhelming majority of those who support Palestine will not risk American democracy, the economy and all foreign interests (including Ukraine) because the best candidate for Palestine can't campaign on supporting Palestine without alienating voters SHE NEEDS in the rust belt.
 

etiira

Member
Oct 25, 2017
516
You have no leverage now.

Nothing you do will matter when it comes to this campaigns narratives. Nothing. The overwhelming majority of those who support Palestine will not risk American democracy, the economy and all foreign interests (including Ukraine) because the best candidate for Palestine can't campaign on supporting Palestine without alienating voters SHE NEEDS in the rust belt.

If folks that won't support Harris don't have leverage, what do you think of those trying to shame uncommitted voters? Saying these voters don't have leverage makes it sound to me like their vote doesn't matter, so I'm trying to understand the meaning here.

EDIT: More to the point, why argue with an uncommitted voter at all if this is the case?
 

Nola

Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,371
You have no leverage now.

Nothing you do will matter when it comes to this campaigns narratives. Nothing. The overwhelming majority of those who support Palestine will not risk American democracy, the economy and all foreign interests (including Ukraine) because the best candidate for Palestine can't campaign on supporting Palestine without alienating voters SHE NEEDS in the rust belt.

Almost no movement moves politics individually, it needs allies. But when the most important allies refuse to stand with them, the vast majority of core party loyal Democrats, the overton window isn't going to move itself.

Setting aside It's simply a myth that her calling for a permanent ceasefire and an arms embargo would cost her more than it would help, this is the same circular reasoning that led Democrats to self-censoring on the Biden-age issue until it reached a breaking point and would have likely cost them the election had the campaign not made a historical unforced error that finally broke through the thick wall of folk wisdoms and rationalizations maintaining a problematic status quo.

Its the same "Biden is the only way to beat Trump" motivated reasoning just now repurposed from Biden's age to rationalize against applying pressure on behalf of Palestinean suffering to force a change of posture and sense of priority when getting into office.
 

Jeb

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Mar 14, 2018
2,239
Serious question... Do you think Trump and his administration will be the better option to address your domestic and international concerns or are you simply boycotting politics in general?
Yall are just as much of my enemies as the right wing you threaten us with.

Its never the right time for us to speak up, your always pushing us all the way down your priority list.

You have no leverage now.

Nothing you do will matter when it comes to this campaigns narratives. Nothing. The overwhelming majority of those who support Palestine will not risk American democracy, the economy and all foreign interests (including Ukraine) because the best candidate for Palestine can't campaign on supporting Palestine without alienating voters SHE NEEDS in the rust belt.

But apparently I have enough for you to come shout me down.

Well my priority is not covering for your favorite girl boss and her administration that are actively participating in the slaughter.

We are dying right now, women and children are dying right now, we have no time to wait for your preferred candidate to grow a conscience.

You wanna pull punches till November, just realize the thousands dying until then.

By the way, they were never born to be human sacrifices, I know that could be surprising to some, but Palestinians have a right to life.
 
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