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DmC was more fun than DMC5
- Thread starter DFG
- Start date
I'm not sure you know what 'depth' is if you see that as a negative.
People didn't seem to mind when GoW PS4 did it.
How many games prioritize combat depth and replayability before all-else like DMC5? All im saying is that DMC 5 and DmC have different priorities which it makes clear by playing its levels, do you know why DMC5 is extremely linear? Because no one wants to play set-pieces or simple platforming sections on thier 4th playthrough and its all about getting that S rank. I just think DMC5 is a rare type of game we dont get enough of and people comparing it to DmC want it to be a GOW 2018 type experience which was never what DMC was about.
Gonna be real with you, most people who love Devil May Cry for its combat depth and complexity most likely don't feel the same way for ANY God of War. Myself included. And that's exactly one of the big reasons why.
OP
OP
I never argued in the gameplay section of either games. It's pretty clear which one is better.
Set pieces and platforming is purely subjective to the player. I have zero problem with those in Bayo, DmC, and DMC3 even.
Also regarding replayability, in a way that depends on the player too. If you lose someone's interest half way due to other reasons than combat, then there might be some issues going on. Some play games once and move on.
I have zero problem with people finishing Ninja Gaiden once even though it offers a lot more in higher difficulties, but the whole package in the first playthrough is there.
I do agree that DMC5 offers a variety of new enemy encounters, and one of the examples of how action games should take notes, you should know there many factors people would be coming in for these types of games than just combat.
Not everyone can pull off SSS easy, or see the deeper mechanics of the game. To me, my first playthrough wasn't as fun as DmC, even if i know all the problems of DmC at the time, and now. Doesn't change my experience of both games on my first playthrough.
Actually, previous DMC games were also like this. Enemy encounters and the individual behaviors of enemies would change depending on the difficulty, with new moves, more aggressive attack patterns, and enemy DT on DMD. The only difference between 5 and the previous games in this regard is that Devil Hunter is the easiest the normal mode has ever been for a mainline game (although still not as easy as DmC).
The total number of relevant and interesting decisions available to a player in a given possibility space. God of War also isn't anywhere near DMC5 in terms of depth, but again different type of game. Dad of War doesn't use it as often as DmC does, and Dad of War is more reactionary combat as opposed to a proactive one like DMC.
DMC is more about creating your hits and then crafting your combos on the opposing enemy. Color coded shit restricts you, and were Dad of War to do it all that often, it would be lame there too. It's partially why Hell isn't all that interesting even on a second lap, it's partially why the final Baldur fight is mundane in comparison to the much better Valkyrie fights.
OP
OP
I really did consider what you said even before making the thread, and tbh it wasn't the challenge itself that made me think that way, like you said DmC was easier to me, but it wasn't that what determined my fun through the game.
DMC5's pacing might've been a big factor on how i felt my fun was. The three characters are a big welcome, however i felt like i didn't really get a feel of them except Nero by the time i finished them.
Of course I'll go back to DMC5 again and get DMD done, like previous ones i finished, hoprfully it'll be a better playthrough. Just leaving it for a while so it's fresh when i get back.
I recently got to the first Dante gameplay and I have to agree. I'm struggling to keep playing it.
I appreciate the good things in REmake 2 and DMCV, but I don't see how they're all that great. I haven't had much fun with either.
I appreciate the good things in REmake 2 and DMCV, but I don't see how they're all that great. I haven't had much fun with either.
Given how much more successful a franchise GoW is than DMC in the action genre, I think there are way more people capable of enjoying both than you think. Myself included.
You're missing the point that restrictions go hand in hand with 'interesting decisions.'
Action games aren't about giving the player a huge toolset and just throwing them into an arena. It's the opposite: the situations are created first, and the tools given to the player are specifically for responding to them. Restrictions exist in literally every action game, because players aren't going to make interesting decisions (or deviate from their FOO strategies) unless the game forces them to.
You might find this talk by Platinum Games on the topic interesting (14:00 for the relevant stuff)
Watched it, and even Platinum doesn't restrict you the way color coded enemies do. Your tools aren't lost, DMC even limits you in ways when dealing with furies. The restriction is how you are going to create your first hit, and more importantly cause hit stun long enough to actually get a combo off. BUt once it's combo time, best believe they let you use your fool tools to do work.
That's how Platinum's games work, that's how DMC works. Color coded shit is a less interesting restriction, all it does is take half your tools away, it doesn't lead to anything nearly as interesting.
In Dad of War, being that all the satisfying bits are played in neutral and having the player respond, there is some satisfaction to managing your crowd and separating your blue enemies from your red enemies so you can get some devastating hits in with the blades of chaos, without being interrupted. DmC you are far more mobile and can do it far easier by simply launching the enemy with the right weapon. Less interesting and both still come out having less depth than Devil May Cry 3, 4, and 5.
There is a pretty fundamental difference in how Dad of War plays that makes it less of an irritant and more of a problem in DmC. I guarantee you were they to have made a greek God of War game with that type of enemy design, it would have got some shit for it.
We are not saying designing with gameplay restrictions in mind is inherently a bad thing it just doesnt work for DMC and Platinum games align themselves way more with DMC than DmC but I thought that was obvious. This is a great panel btw.
Plenty of people have posted on why they actually like DmC but sure, now you exposed what they actually think about the game, that it's fun because it's braindead entertainment. Bravo, sir.
He's certainly credited as a writer on the games wikipedia article, though looking it up, some other sources has him credited as a story supervisor. Either way, he was obviously involved in the writing to some degree.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DmC:_Devil_May_Cry
I don't know where I ever stated the opposite?
I am hearing the level design praise for DmC in here and although I understand where it's coming from just merely having level design does not a fun level make.
DMCV clearly designed it levels with the purpose of facilitating prolonged combat while DmC level design is just padding out the boring story with very (VERY) pretty corridors and brain dead angel/devil whip sequences.
I don't want to diminish what DmC does with the series in regards to simplifying the design for a broader approach while still having fun combat (in the directors cut at least), but that game does not have good level design oh god no. Make no mistake, I love 3D platformers even the sloppy ones because I like jumping and running in any game, but most mainstream games suffer from 'press forward and jump' style of platforming, the most stale of platforming, and though DmC uses the space effectively to portray its excellent aesthetic, the actual exploration of those environments is tedious as hell.
Go watch a lot of DmC or play some of the middle chunks of the game. It's definitely more entertaining to watch than to play.
DMCV clearly designed it levels with the purpose of facilitating prolonged combat while DmC level design is just padding out the boring story with very (VERY) pretty corridors and brain dead angel/devil whip sequences.
I don't want to diminish what DmC does with the series in regards to simplifying the design for a broader approach while still having fun combat (in the directors cut at least), but that game does not have good level design oh god no. Make no mistake, I love 3D platformers even the sloppy ones because I like jumping and running in any game, but most mainstream games suffer from 'press forward and jump' style of platforming, the most stale of platforming, and though DmC uses the space effectively to portray its excellent aesthetic, the actual exploration of those environments is tedious as hell.
Go watch a lot of DmC or play some of the middle chunks of the game. It's definitely more entertaining to watch than to play.
I really don't understand why people keep posting stuff that just belittles other people's opinions. Like, there's some crazy ownership issues in regards to what constitutes a "real action game" and what makes a game in this genre good or not, but the truth is that there's no magic formula for this (or for any game). Take how many people write off God of War for instance, as it's somehow a "lesser" action game than DMC when the game is actually one of the strongest (if not strongest) contender for game of the freaking generation.
Going back to the matter of DmC, time and time again in these threads plenty of people will wax positive about this game even in comparison to the main series because the game is its own thing, its own take on the genre and a damn good title at that. It builds upon the formula of the main series in ways the main series itself is yet to do, and it makes perfect sense that people will like it even over the main series, regardless of these people being longtime fans or if DmC (or even DMC5) were their first taste of the series.
Going back to the matter of DmC, time and time again in these threads plenty of people will wax positive about this game even in comparison to the main series because the game is its own thing, its own take on the genre and a damn good title at that. It builds upon the formula of the main series in ways the main series itself is yet to do, and it makes perfect sense that people will like it even over the main series, regardless of these people being longtime fans or if DmC (or even DMC5) were their first taste of the series.
This whole thread is about comparing all these Devil May Cry games. I get a call for civility, but... guy, we're comparing games in the same series. Some do the job better than the others.
Why is it that every time the DmC crowd acts like they are being saint like angels or some shit? If someone has rudely been going "lol your taste sucks bro", I could see what you mean, but no one is saying you can't have an opinion outside some bants.
Most of it has been properly countering peoples point that "DmC actually does this better" with "actually here is why that thing yall keep saying is better, isn't actually all that better"...to be met with like the people countering are arguing against something that is objective fact or something. Especially in a thread that is going to say x is funner than y, x is more complete than y, x is a more overall experience than y. People are going to argue, almost like it's a forum or something.
The part where you dismiss the bad writing knock as "actually this writer killed it writing these movie scripts", it kind of ignores that he's working in a different domain. It's a different set of virtues.
I have my own controversial take, pos-Bayonetta the old DMC games weren't as fun to play for me, with DmC getting me really close to that blissful feeling.
For context, I don't explore the depth of combat most people seem to rave about those DMC games, so I totally get the fun comparison.
For context, I don't explore the depth of combat most people seem to rave about those DMC games, so I totally get the fun comparison.
I don't really mean people shouldn't rate which game they think is best, but it's important to understand that it's okay for others to like a kind of action game that's different from other action games. Like, I vastly prefer DMC to Ninja Gaiden games but I don't think Ninja Gaiden is a lesser action game nor would I reply to someone who enjoys NG by saying that the game he/she likes is not up to the standards of "real action games".
I could easily cherry pick really badly written moments from all the DMC games, it's kind of their thing. It was quite a few years since I played DMC, so I will readily admit that I have a mostly foggy recollection of it. But I do remember thinking it was a fair bit better written than the other games in the series. The writing is generally pretty nonsensical throughout the various instalments, and generally barely even makes a lot of sense, so that might not be a high bar to reach, but as far as I remember DMC did reach it.
People who prefer DMC 3,4,5 just are into the games for different reasons than people who prefer DmC. Like I've already spent hours in the practice room labbing with Nero, just practicing alternating jump cancels between his dive kick and calibur and trying to stay in the air. I've gotten pretty OK at it, but christ I haven't even scratched the surface of that stuff, not to mention incorporating the devil bringer, getting better with breakers, and fuck I don't know if I'll ever even be good enough to consciously use the exceed mechanic correctly, other than mashing it occasionally and hoping for extra damage here and there.
And that's just one character, who arguably isn't nearly as complicated as Dante, who I haven't even STARTED to hit the lab with yet. I'll be playing this game for years.
If none of that shit sounds appealing to you, I get it, and I can see why you might prefer DmC, but you gotta understand that a lot of the hardcore fan base IS here for that crazy intricate high skill-ceiling fighting game shit. DmC was fun, but by the end of the game I felt like I had mostly maxed out the skill ceiling, the way you would expect from other action games. The previous two games (3 and 4) weren't that way AT ALL though, so I think to a lot of us it felt like they made a DMC game for people who don't really like DMC. It feels like every week we have a thread that seems to have the goal of getting everyone to admit that DmC is actually the greatest or something, but in reality you just are into it for different reasons than the hardcore crowd and that's ok.
I totally don't mean to sound pretentious, but there is a whole layer to DMC 3,4,5 with the jump cancelling system that isn't even apparent at all unless you watch combo videos, tutorials, and actually put in a little bit of time fucking around with it. That entire layer is mostly absent from DmC, so again, it's a competent action game, but not even close to being in the same ballpark for those interested in high-level play.
And besides that, I think the basic combat itself, ignoring jump cancels and stuff, is a step back. No lock on (they added it in DE but the game was obviously not designed around it) separate button dedicated just to launchers, bayo style stinger execution, holding the triggers down to use different weapons, only 3 weapons, coming off of style switching/multiple crazy ass weapons equipped, etc. It felt like a big step back in a lot of ways. I love DMC games, and I didn't even think DmC was terrible, just a solid 7 out of 10 game. Don't see what people like about the story either tbh, the main series is corny anime bullshit but it knows how campy and dumb it is and plays it up. DmC was some "gamers rise up!" Type of cringe shit imo. Fedora Vergil in a Guy Fawkes anonymous mask leading a weird occupy wallstreet movement against "the corporations" and alpha-male coolguy fight club Dante who "totally fucks babes, bro" or whatever. Just, ew.
And that's just one character, who arguably isn't nearly as complicated as Dante, who I haven't even STARTED to hit the lab with yet. I'll be playing this game for years.
If none of that shit sounds appealing to you, I get it, and I can see why you might prefer DmC, but you gotta understand that a lot of the hardcore fan base IS here for that crazy intricate high skill-ceiling fighting game shit. DmC was fun, but by the end of the game I felt like I had mostly maxed out the skill ceiling, the way you would expect from other action games. The previous two games (3 and 4) weren't that way AT ALL though, so I think to a lot of us it felt like they made a DMC game for people who don't really like DMC. It feels like every week we have a thread that seems to have the goal of getting everyone to admit that DmC is actually the greatest or something, but in reality you just are into it for different reasons than the hardcore crowd and that's ok.
I totally don't mean to sound pretentious, but there is a whole layer to DMC 3,4,5 with the jump cancelling system that isn't even apparent at all unless you watch combo videos, tutorials, and actually put in a little bit of time fucking around with it. That entire layer is mostly absent from DmC, so again, it's a competent action game, but not even close to being in the same ballpark for those interested in high-level play.
And besides that, I think the basic combat itself, ignoring jump cancels and stuff, is a step back. No lock on (they added it in DE but the game was obviously not designed around it) separate button dedicated just to launchers, bayo style stinger execution, holding the triggers down to use different weapons, only 3 weapons, coming off of style switching/multiple crazy ass weapons equipped, etc. It felt like a big step back in a lot of ways. I love DMC games, and I didn't even think DmC was terrible, just a solid 7 out of 10 game. Don't see what people like about the story either tbh, the main series is corny anime bullshit but it knows how campy and dumb it is and plays it up. DmC was some "gamers rise up!" Type of cringe shit imo. Fedora Vergil in a Guy Fawkes anonymous mask leading a weird occupy wallstreet movement against "the corporations" and alpha-male coolguy fight club Dante who "totally fucks babes, bro" or whatever. Just, ew.
Hey, if you can do the crazy stuff people do on this video:
Then you're certainly right about hitting the game's skill ceiling. I keep coming back to these videos because it's very impressive how people can push this game the way they do, since a lot of the narrative surrounding the game said the combat did not allow for creativity and such.
DMCV's straightforward level design reminds me of NG2. NG1 was this epic game that had a bit of everything (well done or not). NG2 improved combat and focused on that and cut out backtracking and puzzles. So really, different preferences.
For what a DMC game should be, DMC5 is the Pinnacle. We have gone from weapon switching to PS2 couldn't handle Nero's devil bringer to DMC4 not being properly developed to whether DmC would replace mainline DMC series...thank God DMCV is here!
For what a DMC game should be, DMC5 is the Pinnacle. We have gone from weapon switching to PS2 couldn't handle Nero's devil bringer to DMC4 not being properly developed to whether DmC would replace mainline DMC series...thank God DMCV is here!
If you like that video, you'll love what people do with 3, 4, or 5.
Da hell? I just picked up DMCV and am having a blast. I'm around Chapter 8 and haven't felt anything but fun so far. I remember playing DmC remastered version and it was good, but not as good as some of you are making it out to be.
*shrugs* the difference is DMC embraces its shlock and stays goofy and in on the joke, DmC on the flip side plays shit pretty straight faced, routinely has inconsistent motivations or depictions of abilities for cats like Vergil, and what have you.
For all its shlock the older games had more enjoyable protagonists, more clear goals for its villains (as mustache twirling as they often were), without any pretention of doing anything more than being a framework for goofy fun action. The reboot on the flip side is just often nasty.
The stuff it is being criticized for aren't up the standards that action games are held by. In terms of character kit its worse, in terms of enemy design it does things notably worse, in terms of bosses it does things notably worse. In fact a lot of the stuff that seems to be gassed up about DmC, happens to its superficial achievements about how cool a level looked, or how unique a boss looked. And in the context of an action game, it's not unheard of to consider that to be a shallower achievement to the ones in the main series.
Your argument would have some merit if the thread was just full of cats going "hur durr you DmC lovers just eat shit' or whatever, but that's not necessarily the case. And it certainly doesn't stack up favorably when the arguments presented are "well actually the reboot is a more complete think because x, y, n z", and then all the counters are pointing out how little merit x, y, n z have when held to any sort of scrutiny.
I'm definitely not quite that good, and all of the high-level play in DmC is certainly flashier than standard combos, but it's really dull compared to shit like this
from a game in the series that came out almost a decade before DmC
or shit like this from the previous game
and then for a truly great comparison, consider that DMC5 hasn't even been out for two months and people are already doing shit like this
So again, when people complain about the skill ceiling and lack of creative options, they aren't saying there are NONE because that's certainly not true, it's just when comparing it to previous games in the series, and CERTAINLY when comparing it to DMC5, it's not even close.
I think it doesn't look even remotely dull, and I think that's because both DmC Dante and DmC Vergil have so many different mechanics from their DMC incarnations that the high level play ends up looking very distinct yet equally as compelling to watch (well, even more so IMO). It was (and honestly still is) a breath of fresh air when compared to the main series. I also think it's commendable that the more accessible systems feature as much depth as they do, since the main series is yet feature such accessibility besides the easier difficulty being way too easy (DmC is guilty of that too) and the flood of gold orbs the latest game provides.
I mean if you think that high level DmC play is just as good, and even BETTER than any of those videos, especially the DMC5 one, IDK what to say really, other than I would assume you probably don't understand how the jump cancelling system works, and why shit like that DMC3 video is so impressive. I don't even think my fingers move fast enough anymore to be able to pull off some of those Vergil jump cancels in the DMC3 video I posted, and I don't think my brain can even process inputs fast enough to pull shit off like the DMC5 combo video. That shit is fucking bonkers, and obviously the end result of somebody who has probably spent thousands of hours playing DMC4. You don't just get THAT good at those games. Hell I've been playing DMC games since the first one, and been into all the JC stuff and all that, but I watch shit like that DMC5 video and it blows my mind. The DmC stuff on the other hand, is much more manageable, obtainable even. And not as flashy to me, the video you posted is just edited really well with great cuts, but the bulk of DmC combo videos are just dashing around, some light jump cancel shit, there's impressive stuff for sure, but it's not even on the same level. Super impressive if you're not familiar with the possibilities already, but as far as I'm concerned it's like DmC is Divekick and DMC5 is Street Fighter. Dunno what you're on about with "accessibility" really. You can play through all the DMC games (including DmC) and have a good time, the high level play is there if you want it, as always, but I don't think they're very different in that regard, other than the skill ceiling of the main series being MUCH higher. It's like, yeah you can enjoy a fighting game just going at it with your pals, not having any idea what safe on block means, or frame data, or perfect guards, or meter burning and all that stuff. But those things are there, and just because you don't care about it doesn't mean you should dismiss it completely and tell all the hardcore players they're just crybabies or whatever and don't know what they're talking about.
You gotta keep in mind, DMC5 is a game that has systems that have been built/iterated upon for 15 years, and that's what the hardcore fans want and expect. In that regard, DmC was a weird sidestep that didn't have the depth the hardcore base was after. While being a fine game in it's own right, it wasn't spectacular, especially for fans of the series who really like to dig in to these games, and the antagonistic attitude of the Dev team prior to launch, combined with the people who don't really like the other games telling the fanbase they're all wrong is just obnoxious icing on a shitty cake.
I mean, on gameplay alone I disagree. There are definitely issues with DMCV's level design and some of the enemy designs, though at least they're consistent and built on a theme, but the gameplay of DMCV is so sublime that it trumps DmC.
I say this as someone who did enjoy DmC, it doesn't hold a candle. The story is really not any better in DmC than it is in DMCV in my opinion, the level design is better, sure, but DMCV is quite literally the most in-depth character action game out right now. The amount of mechanics and possibilities the player has is ridiculous. Both Nero and Dante have a stupid amount of mechanics to take advantage of.
I say this as someone who did enjoy DmC, it doesn't hold a candle. The story is really not any better in DmC than it is in DMCV in my opinion, the level design is better, sure, but DMCV is quite literally the most in-depth character action game out right now. The amount of mechanics and possibilities the player has is ridiculous. Both Nero and Dante have a stupid amount of mechanics to take advantage of.
Things DmC did better:
-More varied and enjoyable levels to go through. SUPER solid art direction too.
-Some fun platforming sections. Loved the use of the whip and the air dashes
-Many of the Bosses (I know this will be controversial, but that FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU boss was better than the majority of the bosses in DMC5. Atleast I came out remembering that motherfucker more than anyone in DMC5.
- Writing and voice acting >>>>>>> DMC5. This goes without saying that DmC is the best written game in the franchise, though it's not a whole lot to say.
-More varied and enjoyable levels to go through. SUPER solid art direction too.
-Some fun platforming sections. Loved the use of the whip and the air dashes
-Many of the Bosses (I know this will be controversial, but that FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU boss was better than the majority of the bosses in DMC5. Atleast I came out remembering that motherfucker more than anyone in DMC5.
- Writing and voice acting >>>>>>> DMC5. This goes without saying that DmC is the best written game in the franchise, though it's not a whole lot to say.
I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just look at the videos and give my opinion of them in regards to how they look. I don't think it's wrong to appreciate these in terms of how hard it is to do what's being done, but I certainly would never describe the DmC ones as just dashing around, since I'm certain the people behind them explored a lot of the mechanics and took them to their limit in doing their videos. Of course, I suppose this dismissal of yours is borne from a place of skill or knowledge that I may never attain in regards to the mechanics in these games, but it certainly still looks impressive to me.
I have to disagree, it's a spectacular looking title even in comparison to the entry that just came out. Looking back, it's amazing the framerate on last gen machines is as stable as it is, really.
I dunno man, the writing is bad in all of the games, but at least the main series acknowledges, pokes fun at and leans in to it's campy anime bullshit. DmC takes itself too seriously, and Bob "Muhndis" running the evil corporations that Fedora toting Vergil in a Guy Fawkes anonymous mask is trying to stick it to makes me feel second hand embarrassment for everyone involved.
Also the FUCK YOUUUU boss is a super shallow, predictable, easy fight that is only memorable because of the ridiculous dialogue exchange. Most of the bosses in DMC5 are much better than that one mechanically. That final boss fight shits all over the vergil fight at the end of DmC (the only good boss fight in that game IMO)