Can you or a mod edit the OP to include the tweets because I can't find what this thread is talking about.Given that this is a sensitive topic, please don't post photoshopped tweets as a joke in here right now. It risks derailing the thread and conversation.
Twitter and Troma are different. You are not accepting this. Working as a writer for some Troma films doesn't mean you get a free pass to make raping a boy joke on Twitter. Like, you can work in Troma and be hired at Disney but they're not going to dig super into your past just because of it and they aren't going to assume you made these really awful jokes because you wrote for Troma.
I largely agree with most of your post (which leads me to believe you misunderstood mine, since we're in agreement) so I'll address each of these things briefly:
1. Yes, you only hear the "forgiveness" line in connection with privileged people because you can only forgive someone who has done something wrong. White men, very frequently, do things that are wrong, hence they are the ones who may or may not deserve forgiveness. Ultimately, only you can make the decision, personally, as to whether or not you forgive someone.
2. I completely agree with this, we should not be "reaching out" to Trump supporters. But Gunn is not a Trump supporter. He is a liberal ally who supports social justice. I'm not suggesting you go out and ask Nazis to come hang with you, I'm suggesting that if someone is already on your side that you extend at least the slightest benefit of the doubt to their intentions.
3. Once again, I agree, but none of this applies to Gunn. Nothing he has done today, in 2018, indicates that he is opposed to our cause.
4. I again agree with most of this, but a key point is that I'm not asking oppressed people to "welcome" Gunn. Disney is not run by oppressed white people and Gunn was not fired for oppressing anyone. Disney is run by capitalist white men who fired Gunn because other capitalist white men threatened to boycott their products. His firing was not some kind of rectification of social injustice.
Are you seriously acting like you've never told or laughed at a joke about pedophilia?
Are you guys teenagers or something?
Different climate back then? Doesn't prove Disney knew on time of hiring.James Gunn was in the project in August 2012
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/james-gunn-marvel-guardians-of-the-galaxy-363928
Then a few months later after he got hired he then apologized for his tweets
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/guardians-galaxy-director-james-gunn-395796
So even around this time when Disney could've chosen someone else or even fired him when those statements were brought up again and by the LGBT community no less. Despite that they hired him and kept him on the project and even brought him back for the sequel and let him consult for his characters in Infinity War. If Disney actually gave a shit about this even back then they wouldn't have let him touch this with a ten foot pole and they still did
As before.
I suppose it's about setting expectations and communicating tone which a specifically comedic setting establishes. When someone's performing, it's a persona. Twitter users can also be performative personas (or troll accounts) but when you use your account to make crass jokes while also switching to serious discussion it just doesn't work. The boundaries of performance and reality are removed. This doesn't turn out well with crass and insensitive jokes.
That narrative is inaccurate actually. They're gutting environment regulations, got two Justices, got their tax cuts, dominate state and federal politics, legitimacized the travel ban, and on and on.
So pedophile jokes are ok because we can't have people fired? I'm assuming if pedophile jokes are ok then racist and gay jokes are fine too right? Here's a crazy thought, maybe those jokes aren't appropriate and don't need to be told if your job is that important. Maybe, perhaps? At least think on it.
Makes sense. Any person that makes pedophilia and rape jokes doesn't deserve to be making movies for kids. James Gunn is trash, nothing more.
People watched those shows, people complained about these jokes and their fans wrote of the critics as sticks in the mud while shouting "satire" as you if they actually knew what that meant.What this thread tells me is that some people never watched any standup comedy or even South Park with how they act like these kind of jokes are not normal and nobody does them.
They are not all nice and clean jokes.
About where I stand on it. Like, yeah they were gross jokes but they were obviously jokes from someone that has a very dark sense of humor.With just about any other studio I'd say this was a ridiculous overreaction, but the Mouse has a very specific image to protect.
I suspect he'll get the Hogan treatment and rehired eventually.
That or Taika Waititi to direct GOTG3
Different climate back then? Doesn't prove Disney knew on time of hiring.
You keep saying that but it doesn't make it so. Working for Troma doesn't mean you make jokes like those on Twitter. It was work at Troma, from my reading, to be shocking so it was a genre. Any reasonable company would see it just as another genre and that it's foolish to assume he would write those things on Twitter. Troma isn't Twitter.I'm saying don't hire reformed edgelords and then act shocked they were once edgelords.
Disney knew who James Gunn was.
Just like they knew who Roseanne is
Makes sense. Any person that makes pedophilia and rape jokes doesn't deserve to be making movies for kids. James Gunn is trash, nothing more.
In 2009? Yeah that was pretty normal, especially among people who made careers out of writing edgy comedy. Absolutely.I'm not, but the way you normalizing deeply offensively jokes shows me you very well could be.
Are you seriously acting like it's normal for 40 year old men to make jokes about raping little boys and girls?
Where does Mr. Gunn mention catholic priests, a group of people whom have been widely known and admitted to pedo behavior?
It's almost like context is important!
There's a difference between jokes that are meant to be criticizing and exposing the criminal and James Gunn joking about raping people himself...several times
rude" said:Honestly my first thought upon hearing a pedophile joke is that you're either 1. A pedophile or 2. You have some sort of latent interest in children
It just isn't normal.
This isn't a situation like Roseanne. Disney was baited by the alt-right. Here's hoping that he will be indeed re-hired. This is disheartening and an win that I feel geek twitter can't let the alt-right get.
South Park had an entire bit about Cartman being tricked into sucking a stranger's dick in a parking lot to get semen for his sea monkeys. Jimmy Carr has a joke about brining a child into the woods to rape and murder them. These jokes weren't uncommon in the early 00s and late 90s.
I'm not, but the way you normalizing deeply offensively jokes shows me you very well could be.
Are you seriously acting like it's normal for 40 year old men to make jokes about raping little boys and girls?
My final take on this:
If there's no incentive to ever change your ideas or views, or apologize, then there is no incentive for our enemies to ever become our allies. And guess what...our enemies outnumber us. We, the marginalized, are outnumbered. White people, men, straight people, cis people, completely outnumber us. The only way they will not destroy us is if we occasionally forgive them and allow them onto our side to become allies in our fight. Every single white person, every single man, every single straight or cis person on the planet Earth has made, at some point, crude, offensive, or overtly bigoted comments. It is up to us to decide if the person is repentant enough to be forgiven and welcomed into our conflict. If we destroy, scorched Earth-style, every single person who could potentially assist us, because of something they said a long time ago when it was socially acceptable (and yes, make no mistake, stupid/offensive jokes about rape or pedophilia were completely socially acceptable on the internet in 2009 and to some extent, still are), then we will have no allies.
Is it better to go down in flames and die while maintaining 100% moral purity, or is it better to make peace with your enemies from time to time so that they may help you achieve victory? It's the question every revolutionary group has been asked, and different groups have reacted differently. But the winning groups all chose the same answer.
You keep saying that but it doesn't make it so. Working for Troma doesn't mean you make jokes like those on Twitter. It was work at Troma, from my reading, to be shocking so it was a genre. Any reasonable company would see it just as another genre and that it's foolish to assume he would write those things on Twitter. Troma isn't Twitter.
Stop trying to defend the sloppy actions of a big corporation like Disney. Seriously fuck them. This is 100% on them and even if they didn't know, James Gunn apologized and it was everywhere back then, so why should they have turned a blind eye then?Different climate back then? Doesn't prove Disney knew on time of hiring.
I am aware. Gunn is quoted in that article btw.
But my point is his tweets are 100% Troma shit from a time when he was a Troma writer.
The context of all this is that he was an edgelord writer, writing edgelord scripts for the holy grail of edgelord cinema.
His tweets from that time frame are 100% on brand
Which is why him actively changing and repudiating that shit is key to this conversation.
It's also why Disney is utterly insincere here because they hired a Troma writer and are now acting like they can't believe he put Troma shit on Twitter.
Yeah, that's quite the dichotomy, isn't it?Not really related but I'm not sure how you guys are expecting prison rehabilitation to go if you can't even forgive a dude for making shitty, tasteless jokes years ago.
Yes we have established how culture was much different 10 years ago. We also have established South Park coming under fire for their attempts at humor recently, so they aren't a good example. And we have established how in 2018 we have adopted moral high grounds and realized it's not okay to say things like this, or be professionally affiliated with people whom have said such. Glad we are on the same page.
What this thread tells me is that some people never watched any standup comedy or even South Park with how they act like these kind of jokes are not normal and nobody does them.
They are not all nice and clean jokes.
True. But then they shouldn't of hired him in the first place.
If you are hoping to become rich and famous, don't Tweet stupid shit...or better yet, don't Tweet at all.
I don't get the fury though.He probably tweeted something about Trump and the alt-right has to get him back somehow. I hope Chris Evans doesn't have any old tweets that could be damaging.
No, they're not. I agree. However, I remember reading multiple threads on Reddit from people claiming that what happened to Franken was a hit job by the right in order to deflect from a scandal that was plaguing the right wing at the time. And maybe it was, but people were arguing vehemently that Franken shouldn't have resigned and that the Democratic party was wrong to pressure him to do so. And I'm seeing a similar sentiment from people in this thread, who are claiming that Disney folded to the whims of the alt-right. It does not matter to me who brought these tweets to light. I didn't even know it was Mike Cernovich (sp?) who spearheaded this thing until recently. And knowing that didn't make me feel like Disney made a bad decision. I still think Disney made a good decision, just as they made a good decision in firing Roseanne.
That's not how it works though. Comedians tend to exagerate and say things they never thought about just to make another joke and be at the center of attention.Honestly my first thought upon hearing a pedophile joke is that you're either 1. A pedophile or 2. You have some sort of latent interest in children
It just isn't normal.
Then they could've fired him then months after he was hired afterwards when he was apologizing for his shit back then. Like he was a relative unknown at this point why would they want to keep him if he was under fire for this stuff or even bring him back. Even then a majority of the people that wanted him fired were the alt right idiots and most saw through this and didn't say too much. Even in the other thread people were calling out how this was a hit by the alt right who wanted to fire him and how he made those comments almost 10 years ago, apologize and became a better person since then. People were ready to ignore this and Disney took the alt right bait anyway even though hardly anyone would've cared and would wanted him to be fired.Different climate back then? Doesn't prove Disney knew on time of hiring.
My understanding is that he was "known" for this kind of stuff given the movies he had produced in the past and culture he was involved in before he started on GOTG. While they might not have seen these explicit tweets, I would assume that Disney would be knowledgeable about his past history. It was, as I recall, a big surprise when he was hired for GOTG. I find it hard to believe that Disney was unaware of this history. Perhaps the CEO wasn't aware, but somewhere along the hiring chain, I do believe that knew of this and did not consider it big enough to not hire him, which means they implicitly implied they either endorsed his views or that they (Disney) implicitly implied that they believe he had changed.
The thread is about Gunn. Why would he assume he isn't the topic of conversation? I think everyone knows making jokes centered around exposing priests and the like doesn't mean you have pedo fantasies.Hmmm... Did I mention James Gunn? No. I quoted Bye who quoted Rude saying this;
Maybe you should take your own advice Bye, and read the context of the quote first. The statement made was that pedophile jokes = latent pedophilia, which you agreed was the right assumption to make. Not once did I mention James bloody Gunn.
I didn't explain myself well. Refer to the above.That's not how it works though. Comedians tend to exagerate and say things they never thought about just to make another joke and be at the center of attention.