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Feb 10, 2018
17,534
It is a next gen leap.

Do you seriously not think the tech isn't going to evolve?



And how do you think we get there?
I and others are talking about its current incarnation.
Also even full path traced cgi movies still have pretty far to go regarding lighting, human skin in bright daylight still looks way off.
And I agree that RT is the best lighting tech at the moment, Its just not a revolutionary jump in game visuals, it's a nice Evolution.
When multiple things are ray traced we will see a more radical overall upgrade, but next gen the leap will come from other things to which have nothing to do with RT.
 

Buff Beefbroth

Chicken Chaser
Member
Apr 12, 2018
3,021
I and others are talking about its current incarnation.
Also even full path traced cgi movies still have pretty far to go regarding lighting, human skin in bright daylight still looks way off.
And I agree that RT is the best lighting tech at the moment, Its just not a revolutionary jump in game visuals, it's a nice Evolution.
When multiple things are ray traced we will see a more radical overall upgrade, but next gen the leap will come from other things to which have nothing to do with RT.

Were you guys around when polygons started being a thing?
 

Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
2,342
And how do you think we get there?
Many iterations of the tech implementation + brute force improvements in the hardware.

I think one of the problems with the latter though is the drastically reduced pace of transistor density increases. I've seen a lot of comments along the lines of "Well remember when tessellation was introduced and how long it took to become commonplace?" - well yes, but at that time we were seeing far more aggressive jumps in performance from generation to generation. I mean the current Nvidia GPU's that can actually do RTX at decent resolutions/framerates are relatively huge, and albeit Nvidia's high margins play a big part, they're expensive for that reason as well.

We'll get a nice bump when they move to 7nm. And then...? We're looking at very slow - relative to past years - improvements in what we can expect in terms of GPU power year-on-year. I'm sure new approaches, such as finally cracking that multi-die gpu nut, are being worked on - as they have been for a while. But the future is far less certain than when we were on 32/28nm and new process nodes were relatively guaranteed and the benefits they would bring as a result. Things are much, much more difficult now.

Plus who knows what the state of the planet will be in within 10 years to boot - we're constantly reminded of just how fragile the supply chain can be. I just think looking at past advances in GPU tech and then using them as a comparative to what we can expect for RTX to become a mainstream expected feature may not be factoring in the constraints we have now which we didn't then.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,071
It's easy to be skeptical of Nvidia overly pushing a new tech as the next big super differentiator since they've done it plenty before (PhysX, Hairworks, Tessellation, etc). But real time raytracing really is believable as a paradigm shift, and hardware made to handle that specific task will help bring that future sooner for a lot of PC gamers - for games developed to take advantage, at least.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,525
The "coated in oil" look that so many of the RTX games get (where many surfaces have has a weird-perfect reflection on it) is probably more distracting to me. None of the non-RTX images have what I would consider to be bad lighting though......you can see the improvements in a side-by-side comparison, but probably less so in a scenario where you're just playing a game and not doing a direct comparison.
By your logic we should be still playing games in 8 bits. Like seriously, I am glad people who actually push for better real time graphics enhancement don't share your mentality. It's so close-minded.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
Many iterations of the tech implementation + brute force improvements in the hardware.

I think one of the problems with the latter though is the drastically reduced pace of transistor density increases. I've seen a lot of comments along the lines of "Well remember when tessellation was introduced and how long it took to become commonplace?" - well yes, but at that time we were seeing far more aggressive jumps in performance from generation to generation. I mean the current Nvidia GPU's that can actually do RTX at decent resolutions/framerates are relatively huge, and albeit Nvidia's high margins play a big part, they're expensive for that reason as well.

We'll get a nice bump when they move to 7nm. And then...? We're looking at very slow - relative to past years - improvements in what we can expect in terms of GPU power year-on-year. I'm sure new approaches, such as finally cracking that multi-die gpu nut, are being worked on - as they have been for a while. But the future is far less certain than when we were on 32/28nm and new process nodes were relatively guaranteed and the benefits they would bring as a result. Things are much, much more difficult now.

Plus who knows what the state of the planet will be in within 10 years to boot - we're constantly reminded of just how fragile the supply chain can be. I just think looking at past advances in GPU tech and then using them as a comparative to what we can expect for RTX to become a mainstream expected feature may not be factoring in the constraints we have now which we didn't then.

I'm really hoping it's because they only put a very small number of RT cores in the RTX 20XX series cards, planning on adding more with each release, milking it.

I hope people kick up a fuss about the performance and they bump it along faster because selling us 144Hz monitors and then expecting us to play games at 30fps is a piss take.

If it's really going to be a struggle to get improvements and the number of RTX cores is largely irrelevant, well, fuck. But the strategist in me doubts that.

I get the general message DF is trying to convey. It could be amazing. Of course it could. Just look at movies. I'm just mostly pissed with the performance for what we get. I want all the raytracing turned up to 10000%. I don't want 5% raytracing at 50% performance. You might as well shelve that. In fact, I'd rather they did. Next-gen has the power to bring massive changes, this risks that, helping with the cross-gen up-port strategy, which sucks balls.

Global raytracing on ultra needs to smack you in the face. It shouldn't even need to be pointed out.
 
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Feb 6, 2019
468
great pics, Drake and Kratos most certainly do self shadow during gameplay

All you lot bringing up PS4 characters are gonna have VFX Veteren big mad on private mode.

I meant their face. Their nose/cheeks/lips/foreheads don't self shadow on the face in gameplay.
Another game that has no facial self shadowing are the 3 Tomb Raider games. Even on PC (RTX fixes that presumably though)

Edit
sorry, kratos does have it
 
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Monster Zero

Member
Nov 5, 2017
5,612
Southern California
All this post tells me is you don't really understand what ray tracing is or how it affects everything in the scene. I'm not sure what "coated in oil" look you're talking about but RTX is not just about reflections at all. It's ALL the lighting and shadows in a scene.

Some people feel like the reflective surface of things are over exaggerated vs their real life counterparts in games that use RTX reflections. Personally using it for reflections feels like a waste for me. Bring on more RTX lighting games.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Because if you consider real time Ray tracing as just a simple evolution of what current raster techniques are doing, then I have no choice but put into question how much you actually know about it.
Read what I say...

in its current state, I've already said that when multiple things are doing using RT, that is when the improvement over other methods will be more drastic.

People act like the RT revolution has come and many visual aspects are done using RT, we are pretty far from that.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,390
Does anyone have any idea how the hardware RT support on next-gen consoles will be compared to the current Nvidia tech?

We couldnt possibly know that.
But Nvidia will have had over a year of testing and development after deployment, the chances of AMD coming in and decking them is very very slim.

Plus Nvidia have also been working with Devs like the Redshift and Octane crew who are absolutely insane with their hardware accelerated Ray/Pathtracing if there has been any back and forth between Nvidia and Redshift/Octane then AMD will be legit quite a distance behind Nvidia.
Just looking at how DLSS and RTX have improved as the video stated early adopters like BFV improved drastically with software updates...Control is a true tour de force for their technology.
AMD have a very high hill to climb just to catch up.

Ampere coming out and Nvidia will be miles and miles ahead.
 

Jiraiya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,296
I'm really hoping it's because they only put a very small number of RTX cores in the RTX 20XX series cards, planning on adding more with each release, milking it.

I hope people kick up a fuss about the performance and they bump it along faster because selling us 144/240/300Hz monitors and then expecting us to play games at 30fps is a piss take.

If it's really going to be a struggle to get improvements and the number of RTX cores is largely irrelevant, well, fuck.

You keep arguing like it's a zero sum thing. Like devs can't property manage during development for consoles and pc players can't adjust settings.

It's super off putting to see so many members misrepresenting information that should be known.
 
Jan 21, 2019
2,902
Because if you consider real time Ray tracing as just a simple evolution of what current raster techniques are doing, then I have no choice but put into question how much you actually know about it.
I get what he is seeing. He isn't denying that rt is the next step, he is just saying that perceptually to him, the jump to PBR was bigger than what we have seen with rt. Control with rt is a more stunning control but it's not a jump like uncharted 3 to uncharted 4. That's all he is saying and I would agree but I would also say that it's an unfair comparison because control is fundamentally a current gen game + rt where as uncharted 4 was a game made from the ground up with PBR and next gen tech in mind, it's not PS3 tech with PBR tacked on.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
LKbtvri.png


I think this is the best comparison yet. Good job Alex :)
"How to purposefully gimp the base game to promote a feature" the screenshot
 

dreamfall

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,987
Really incredible video, DF stays being the best team providing awesome analysis of tech. I can't wait to build a new rig right before Cyberpunk comes out, hopefully after some sort of Nvidia 3000 series reveals.

It truly is an incredible time for ray tracing as more developers familiarize themselves with the tech. Control is pretty damn jaw dropping!
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
It's also very important to remember that visual improvement will not just be ray tracing. It's going to more polygons, more memory for better textures, better animation, more drawcalls and a plethora of other effects and technologies.
 

Max|Payne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,997
Portugal
Read what I say...

in its current state, I've already said that when multiple things are doing using RT, that is when the improvement over other methods will be more drastic.

People act like the RT revolution has come and many visual aspects are done using RT, we are pretty far from that.
But why does it have be an all or nothing implementation? Just like other graphical advances, these things are always implemented partially and improved upon over time.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,386
I meant their face. Their nose/cheeks/lips/foreheads don't self shadow on the face in gameplay.
Another game that has no facial self shadowing are the 3 Tomb Raider games. Even on PC (RTX fixes that presumably though)

giphy.gif

Sorry for my low res pic, had to use remote play to grab it quickly. But there's his nose and eyes and head.

Edit: got damn that is even more lower res than I thought 😭
 
Feb 6, 2019
468
Ray tracing is a way bigger jump the PBR. Objects having realistic amounts of gloss/roughness is nice, but ray tracing affects things a lot more.

Ray tracing means everything on screen has shadows and the shadows cast at infinite distance too.
Nowadays only some things cast shadows like buildings, cars, lampposts, fences, trees, bushes, but things like grass, small rocks, small objects, often do not cast shadows, and many things do not cast shadows on themselves.

Nowadays, shadows usually draw a hundred feet in the distance at best, so trees in the distance suddenly have no shadows, ray tracing means a tree 3 miles away has a shadow.

It also makes a gigantic difference with reflections so cars, skyscrapers, water, mirrors etc will show correct reflections.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
"How to purposefully gimp the base game to promote a feature" the screenshot
So all other games are purposefully gimped, even though they do not have RT based screenspace shadows?
Because this is just an example of limitation of rasterization techniques

---
I get the general message DF is trying to convey. It could be amazing. Of course it could. Just look at movies. I'm just mostly pissed with the performance for what we get. I want all the raytracing turned up to 10000%. I don't want 5% raytracing at 50% performance. You might as well shelve that. In fact, I'd rather they did. Next-gen has the power to bring massive changes, this risks that, helping with the cross-gen up-port strategy, which sucks balls.

Global raytracing on ultra needs to smack you in the face. It shouldn't even need to be pointed out.
You cannot have revolution without evolution. Software development is about trial and error, devs need to use RT to know how they can utilize it and how they can optimize it. Not only that, but hardware, API and driver engineers also needs guidance from industry where to push technology further. Its combined effort to make it a reality, but it takes time, many iterations and experimentation.
 
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Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
^ I need things like this much more, raytracing can wait for the hardware to catch up, devs can play around with it if they want:



We've been playing the approximate same level of games for a decade.
Global illumination needs to be on fucking point. I'll take it but don't forget expectations are high for next-gen. We need big improvements. Things that floor you, make you think, wow next-gen is fucking incredible.

giphy.gif


Sorry for my low res pic, had to use remote play to grab it quickly. But there's his nose and eyes and head.

Edit: got damn that is even more lower res than I thought 😭

Is this for the gameboy advance?
 
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Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
2,342
It angers me because what you're saying is so off base in terms of why the content is made. That's the issue. You know why I make those types of videos? Because I enjoy making them. That's it. I want to educate and create that type of content. Any implication that content is made to help someone else sell something is so damn insulting that it seriously makes me want to throw up my hands and quit. It's so against what I'm trying to do and it's so disrespectful.

Look, I apologize for being so blunt but what you're saying is extremely bothersome to me as it runs in direct opposition to everything I stand for.

That's nice to say, but again - you're replying to this in a thread where the organization you work for just did a 20 minute ad. It's ridiculous to think the slightest suspicion of motivations (it's not a binary of corrupt/uncorrupt btw!) that are even hinted at when you decide to do that are inherently off-limits because you say have 'passion' for a certain industry.

I don't think you, or the DF team, are 'corrupt' and are inherently doing ads - at least outside of the scope of what tech 'journalists' do in general when they cover this industry. I'm just a consumer of your product voicing what I felt was a slight shift in tone in coverage over recent years that I feel has been apparent, at least to me. You exclaiming how much you love what you do is really beside the point (and, when you cover said industry - is that necessarily a positive?), when you make the choice to accept funds from the companies you critique - no matter how required it may be to remain functional as a business - you have compromised your objectivity. To what extent, if any? Who knows! But that's why journalists have ethics guidelines to avoid the perception of influence. I can't possibly know what's in your heart of hearts, the litmus test of objectivity isn't how loudly you proclaim how objective you are.

It would be great if this kind of thing wasn't required to produce these on the regular, the problem of journalistic independence is not new and how to actually achieve that without needing corporate profits on the regular vs. government meddling is damned tough (one of the many reasons I support a vastly increased welfare state is to to make independent journalism a more viable career path for example). So I have no problem with the claim that this is necessary to do the work you do, I accept that - but you also have to accept that accepting that, no matter how materially necessary it may be to keep the lights on - comes with an inherent cost of perceived impartiality.
 
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Feb 10, 2018
17,534
But why does it have be an all or nothing implementation? Just like other graphical advances, these things are always implemented partially and improved upon over time.

I never said they were not.
I've posted quite a few times that UE4 troll demo, and the dev explaining that it does not make sense to use RT for certain surfaces like a rough surfaced rock.
There are also other circumstances where RT reflections and lighting are not needed. I absolutely think RT will be used fot what it's best at, at the moment.
Of course as hardware gets more powerful the better more resource expensive methods will be utilised.

I think you are taking one thing that I say and jumping to a conclusion that I'm some RT naysayer, if take a breath and re read what I've said you will realise I'm not.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,390
This thread is an insult to pretty much everything DF have been doing for years now.

What the fuck is going on....people think DF is an Nvidia shill now?

Everyone saying its some propaganda needs to boot up Control and go to the sections shown in the video.
Maybe its nostalgia eyes(the game aint that old) or just that the screenshot makes things look worse due to it being static.

But Control def evolves when RTX is turned on.

Real time raytracing is mind bending, ive been rendering with Path Tracing and BiDirectional Path tracing for a while so seeing this stuff in games is just insane.
We really need more games to show off how far RT goes to making a game look better.
Not necessarily photoreal but having accurate RT/PT is something ive wanted in real time since forever.
 
Feb 6, 2019
468
My bad, Kratos does have self shadowing on the face. The game usually has soft lighting making the shadows soft and hard to notice.
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
So all games are other purposefully gimped, even though they do not have RT based screenspace shadows?
Because this is just an example of limitation of rasterization techniques

---

You cannot have revolution without evolution. Software development is about trial and error, devs need to use RT to know how they can utilize it and how they can optimize it. Not only that, but hardware, API and driver engineers also needs guidance from industry where to push technology further. Its combined effort to make it a reality, but it takes time, many iterations and experimentation.
Ohh shut it, you know that that picture is deceiving. It's on the developer to implement it without the need of RT.

What I want to say, that's totally achievable without raytracing.

That said, I can't wait for raytracing to become mainstream.
 

StudioTan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,836
Lol, 3d compared to 2d is a radical change, better lighting(which quality varies based on the location of the Chracter for raster only) is nowhere near the same level of difference, it is frankly embaressing for you that you even made this comparison.

It is just as radical a change though. For example you have less destruction and environment interactivity in games now largely due to the fact that a lot of lighting in games needs to be baked. So you can't just have stuff being moved in a game because the baked lighting would be broken. You can also use RTX for better audio processing and stuff like cloth deformation. Ray tracing can go way beyond just "better lighting". Yes, the lighting will be better but it also affects so many other things.

Not to mention that fact that baked light maps can take up many gigabytes of space.
 

Temperance

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,828
[NO 2FA]
Holy shit batman at some of these baseless insinuated accusation being thrown at DF right now. Jeez, you guys need to chillax.

Always appreciate these vids you guys do and as long as you're transparent about any sponsoring going on then that's all that should be required of you.

Still haven't seen any detractor post their own screenshot, huh very interesting.
 

Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
2,342
"How to purposefully gimp the base game to promote a feature" the screenshot

Every game every produced will have scenes like that though. You can argue it's cherry picked sure to draw the distinction (in this case, specifically to highlight it), but Control has superb rasterized lighting - but like every engine out there, it will break down in certain conditions.

There is no way Remedy purposefully gimped their game to tailor to the ~5% (if that!) of the market that will experience it with RTX.
 

Sems4arsenal

Member
Apr 7, 2019
3,627
The thing is, devs have mastered lighting already with rasterization. Games like Red Dead, GTSport, Horizon, etc. Have sublime lighting, so I don't see RT being much of a difference at all. Certainly not worth the cost.

Having said that, I understand that it's a marketing word that needs to sell consoles, and that with it being standardized -- optimization will lessen these performance blows.

I think it depends on the genre. Racing games in particular will benefit from this.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,390
That's nice to say, but again - you're replying to this in a thread where the organization you work for just did a 20 minute ad. It's ridiculous to think the slightest suspicion of motivations (it's not a binary of corrupt/uncorrupt btw!) that are even hinted at when you decide to do that are inherently off-limits because you say have 'passion' for a certain industry........

If its an ad for anything its an ad for Raytracing n Pathtracing.....which in real time or atleast gameplay worthy real time can only be done on RTX cards.
Even if you booted up Octane or Redshift you would still need an Nvidia card to really see the effects and benefits of raytracing at speed.
The video also talks about the nextgen machines which arent Nvidia based and the DXR built into Win10 again not actually Nvidia specific....its okay to be skeptical, but at this point you are pretty much insulting the integrity of DF.

Id say at this point you have said your piece and its probably better just to leave it be, as this is someone passion you maybe inadvertently shitting on.
 
Nov 20, 2019
1,861
Really incredible video, DF stays being the best team providing awesome analysis of tech. I can't wait to build a new rig right before Cyberpunk comes out, hopefully after some sort of Nvidia 3000 series reveals.

It truly is an incredible time for ray tracing as more developers familiarize themselves with the tech. Control is pretty damn jaw dropping!
These are my screenshots from my PC RTX 2080 Max Q 90W! RT makes a BIG Difference. This Is MAX Everything at 1080p With RT ON. I get 40 to 50 FPS and I dont mind at all.

Click here
 
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Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Every game every produced will have scenes like that though. You can argue it's cherry picked sure to draw the distinction (in this case, specifically to highlight it), but Control has superb rasterized lighting - but like every engine out there, it will break down in certain conditions.

There is no way Remedy purposefully gimped their game to tailor to the ~5% (if that!) of the market that will experience it with RTX.
Yeah, I should have said it better. I agree with what you said, cherry picked is better.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Who cares who sponsored the video, I bet Alex would of done this video exactly the same regardless if there's a sponsor or not.

Good job Alex/df
 

Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,403
I and others are talking about its current incarnation.
Also even full path traced cgi movies still have pretty far to go regarding lighting, human skin in bright daylight still looks way off.
And I agree that RT is the best lighting tech at the moment, Its just not a revolutionary jump in game visuals, it's a nice Evolution.
When multiple things are ray traced we will see a more radical overall upgrade, but next gen the leap will come from other things to which have nothing to do with RT.

You're telling me that on this day, February seventh, two thousand and twenty, Minecraft RTX is NOT a next gen leap in terms of visuals over base game Minecraft? I just cannot process how someone could think it isn't.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,544
Ohh shut it, you know that that picture is deceiving. It's on the developer to implement it without the need of RT.
Its not deceiving. Its shows how lighting breaks in rasterization and can be fixed with proper RT support. It doesnt mean that rasterization is useless or is always inaccurate, but many time it is and you hardly can do anything about it without making it stupidly expensive. Name me any game and i'll show you similar situation happening in that game.
Also basically what Flappy Pannus said.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,829
Ohh shut it, you know that that picture is deceiving. It's on the developer to implement it without the need of RT.

What I want to say, that's totally achievable without raytracing.

That said, I can't wait for raytracing to become mainstream.

No game is perfect, and there are always going to be things that break the fake lighting. The whole point of that comparison is to show just how consistent ray tracing is. It just works, and will save developers a huge amount of time and money instead of trying to solve every edge case with man hours.
 

Yogi

Banned
Nov 10, 2019
1,806
You're telling me that on this day, February seventh, two thousand and twenty, Minecraft RTX is NOT a next gen leap in terms of visuals over base game Minecraft? I just cannot process how someone could think it isn't.
Normal Minecraft looks like shit dude. We're comparing it to games where they put effort in the faked lighting. That RT can transform butt ugly games is great news for ... a handful of titles.