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NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,888
What? CK2 has everything people have been asking in From games since like well forever. Customizable difficulty, cheats, and so on.

The whole argument that CK2 is hard to get into is valid but that is not something Paradox is always doing by design. They are not going "yeah lets have shit tutorials and complex , sometimes unintuitive, UI because that's part of our vision" they have actively been trying to make the game more accessible since pretty much day one.
 

DrArchon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,485
I think the crux of the issue is that some people are adamant on the belief that everyone should be able to experience any game start to finish. I personally think that's a load of crap and that not being able to beat a game because it's too hard or too complex or whatever is just part of playing video games and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm torn because I really want to say I agree with this, but I recognize that difficulty is an accessibility issue.

I do agree that no one should feel any shame in not being able to complete a game. I couldn't beat The Witness because I'm just not good enough at the puzzles, but I don't feel like less of a player because of it.
 

bricewgilbert

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
868
WA, USA
If your accessibility options intended for people who require them makes the game easy for someone who doesn't then whatever. As long as it is clear they are accessibility options then I think anything goes. In a theoretical Souls game where it had them if someone wanted to exploit those options then so be it. I think that trade off is worth it, but popping up a general difficulty selector at the start of the game and tuning the game toward that I think would be a mistake if we were suggesting every game do that.

Basically what i'm saying is I very much think the frustrating experience you have with a game Sekiro is a specific experience, and making that experience much easier is a different experience by definition. That may seem obvious but it often feels like people don't get that. You can still enjoy both, but it is different. Giving people with disabilities the tools to get closer to being at a level playing field is necessary, but beyond that I really think you are changing the game. If the dev is fine with that then so be it, but if they aren't I don't think it is bad design.

It's weird because really you can put any sort of features (god mode, rewind, save states etc.) in your game that could be useful for all sorts of scenarios (and maybe they should be standard) but they would still change the experience, and recognizing that seems key to me. I think this is ultimately where the impasse is. At a fundamental level these all affect the game to a degree that anyone using them would have entirely different experiences. Is that bad though? Is being a content tourist good enough? Maybe for you, but not for me. Is is okay that we both did different things? Maybe it is, but can we really talk about the experience in a shared capacity anymore? I think we can't which is why I think games like Souls should exist among the spectrum.

The discourse around "getting good" and shit like that is what needs to change.
 
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eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Perfectly reasonable and I agree completely.

I also can't help notice something (after discussing this with someone in Discord): Nexusmods has 4 pages of mods for Sekiro... almost all of which are entirely cosmetic. Unless I'm blind, I'm not seeing any mod that tweaks the difficulty in any way. So people should maybe stop saying it's trivial dev work, eh?
more like the people with the skill to make it, seem not to want too. that makes sense if you think about it since most modders make mods they use themselves.
 

Enduin

You look 40
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,504
New York
Perfectly reasonable and I agree completely.

I also can't help notice something (after discussing this with someone in Discord): Nexusmods has 4 pages of mods for Sekiro... almost all of which are entirely cosmetic. Unless I'm blind, I'm not seeing any mod that tweaks the difficulty in any way. So people should maybe stop saying it's trivial dev work, eh?
Mods like that aren't necessary when things like Cheat Engine exists with rather extensive custom options tables and it's piss easy to use and let's players dial things to their specific needs/desires rather than some one size fits all Trainer or especially Mod. Nexus mods is rarely ever used for cheats, it's always about cosmetics and major difficulty overhauls, which I'm sure Sekiro will get at some point still, but not often for simple cheat mods since there's far far better options out there on PC.

http://fearlessrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?t=8938
 

Dio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,097
Perfectly reasonable and I agree completely.

I also can't help notice something (after discussing this with someone in Discord): Nexusmods has 4 pages of mods for Sekiro... almost all of which are entirely cosmetic. Unless I'm blind, I'm not seeing any mod that tweaks the difficulty in any way. So people should maybe stop saying it's trivial dev work, eh?
... model swapping is vastly easier from a hobbyist perspective, coupled with the fact that one need to want to to it, more so when cheat engine exists, and having the skill to do such a tool. do better. please.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,419
Seattle
CK2 isn't hard or challenging. It's more inaccessible and it's super complex, as you've said yourself. That's the main difference.
So why then, if we are supposed to believe that difficulty and accessibility go hand in hand, do we not see endless articles about Paradox strategy games lamenting their difficulty? My fiancé would rather chew her own arm off before sitting through even 5 minutes of a Paradox tutorial, should they make some kind of change to the game in order to make her more able to play the game?

most ck2 players would chew off their arms over doing the tutorial.
 

Gush

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,096
I don't think it's necessarily true that games are the only media that has some sort of barrier to fully appreciate.

Yeah, I'll never understand this argument. Literature specifically can have barriers to entry that can make understanding it completely impossible for many readers, even those with a strong command of language. The average person complaining about Sekiro would have a much harder time reading Minima Moralia or Critique of Pure Reason and would likely hit similar roadblocks with frustration.

While I think we should absolutely 100% bridge all gaps possible to increase accessibility and allow as many people to experience a game as possible, I don't think that's an issue with difficulty first and foremost, and I don't think there's anything wrong with something being daunting, having high expectations of the player, or setting out to design a specific set of scenarios that exist to punish and reward in equal measure.

Some of the best art can seem impenetrable at times, and that's totally fine. There's a lot of merit to dissonant art, be it Merzbow, Finnegans Wake, or whatever the case may be, and I'm not sure softening that stuff should be something asked of the creators.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,419
Seattle
To the "every game doesn't have to be for everyone" comment, that is true but

"Games are for everyone" does not mean that every game needs to appeal to every person. We simply want to make it so those with disabilities can choose what to play based on their -interests-, not based on accessibility barriers.


The difference is that Crusader Kings to my knowledge doesn't require quick, complex and precise inputs. You can give commands while paused right? And the speed is also adjustable.


You are correct, many do like to play at the fastest setting when making their choices. But the default for many situations is pause when major decisions need to happen
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
Halfcoordinated who does one-handed speedruns talked about Celeste assist mode, and touches upon the "you're taking the challenge away" aspect. Note how he mentions that it WOULD take the challenge away from him, but the mode isn't for him.
D3K9NshWAAEF8Qg.png:large

If someone with hemiparesis has the self-control to not turn it on, then as able-bodied so should you . Isn't this how we are doing this?
Yeah, I'll never understand this argument. Literature specifically can have barriers to entry that can make understanding it completely impossible for many readers, even those with a strong command of language. The average person complaining about Sekiro would have a much harder time reading Minima Moralia or Critique of Pure Reason and would likely hit similar roadblocks with frustration.

While I think we should absolutely 100% bridge all gaps possible to increase accessibility and allow as many people to experience a game as possible, I don't think that's an issue with difficulty first and foremost, and I don't think there's anything wrong with something being daunting, having high expectations of the player, or setting out to design a specific set of scenarios that exist to punish and reward in equal measure.

Some of the best art can seem impenetrable at times, and that's totally fine. There's a lot of merit to dissonant art, be it Merzbow, Finnegans Wake, or whatever the case may be, and I'm not sure softening that stuff should be something asked of the creators.
The issue isn't about understanding Sekiro though. It's not like people would be asking for more sensical and easier to follow stories in From Soft games. It's awful comparison.
 
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Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,173
Chesire, UK
However, I do agree with him that not every game has to be for every person.
You are conflating difficulty with enjoyment.

It doesn't matter how easy you make Sekiro, I'm still not going to like it. It is a difficult game, but it's also a game I don't enjoy.

On the other hand, there are many people who would love Sekiro, but are unable to enjoy it because it is difficult.

If you are the sort of person who enjoys Sekiro, why would you not want more people to be able to enjoy it?


Personally speaking, the difficulty of From's games is their one saving grace. It keeps their addressable market fairly small, which keeps them fairly niche, which means they don't get cloned a lot. I'd hate for them to be successful enough that the industry meaningfully pivoted towards making games like From's.

What I can't understand is why fans of From's games seemingly also want that.
 

Reaper55

Member
Oct 25, 2017
152
I am happy for the people who like this type of game and glad to see the high level of challenge this iteration gives them. I don't think making the game easier so someone like me can enjoy it and quickly move on to the next game is what the developer should focus their time on.

The soulslikes became successful because of the steep learning curve and commitment required to finish them. Taking that away from it's fans to appeal to a wider audience would be disappointing as there are plenty of other games that do that.
 

Dark1x

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
3,530
This conversation only ever comes up with From games because the accessibility "problem" is much easier to pinpoint(dexterity based) even though that particular issue of accessibility is easier solved by accommodating peripherals and remappable controls(which Sekiro has) than developing modes that may or may not cater everyone. When its something like cognitive ability then no one pays any attention.
Exactly. Like I said, Call of Duty multiplayer is infinitely less forgiving and far more frustrating for newcomers. There is nothing friendly about it.

but if you want to hit large sales numbers these days then you need to play test the hell out of it for easier play or have separate difficulty levels,
I believe Sekiro has sold very very well.

I am happy for the people who like this type of game and glad to see the high level of challenge this iteration gives them. I don't think making the game easier so someone like me can enjoy it and quickly move on to the next game is what the developer should focus their time on.
Yup, exactly. As I said, there are so many other games that I can't enjoy and aren't for me. That's normal. Not every game will work for everyone.
 

DoubleTake

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,540
But people aren't on even playing field, the game is same for everyone but the player is different. Hence it's a different experience. And you can just ask "what difficulty you played on?" Then you know.

Exactly. Every player is different. The onus shouldn't fall to the developer to try and tailor their game for every single possible player. That simply is not feasible. The games themselves have mechanics that lower difficulty without the need for a difficulty slider. Summoning in Souls and stealth in Sekiro. The biggest barrier to accessibility in these games is they require a certain level of dexterity. Like I said before there are peripherals made for that specific thing.

To be honest the inclusion of a difficulty setting would breed actual elitism in these games. The moment you have people asking whether you beat the game on the intended difficulty, more barriers are raised for those that did not.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
Exactly. Every player is different. The onus shouldn't fall to the developer to try and tailor their game for every single possible player. That simply is not feasible. The games themselves have mechanics that lower difficulty without the need for a difficulty slider. Summoning in Souls and stealth in Sekiro. The biggest barrier to accessibility in these games is they require a certain level of dexterity. Like I said before there are peripherals made for that specific thing.

To be honest the inclusion of a difficulty setting would breed actual elitism in these games. The moment you have people asking whether you beat the game on the intended difficulty, more barriers are raised for those that did not.
Sure it shouldn't fall on the developer, which is why you could give the tools to the player like Celeste's assist Mode or Crusader Kings cheats. So the player can tailor the experience so it fits them. Or make modding widely available on consoles too, that would help a lot. But that's not at the hands of the dev unfortunately.

Edit: Here's from someone who gets why From Soft games are like they are and what people love about them. Thread is worth a read.
 
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Gush

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,096
Halfcoordinated who does one-handed speedruns talked about Celeste assist mode, and touches upon the "you're taking the challenge away" aspect. Note how he mentions that it WOULD take the challenge away from him, but the mode isn't for him.
D3K9NshWAAEF8Qg.png:large

If someone with hemiparesis has the self-control to not turn it on, then as able-bodied so should you . Isn't this how we are doing this?

The issue isn't about understanding Sekiro though. It's not like people would be asking for more sensical and easier to follow stories in From Soft games. It's awful comparison.

It is about understanding though. There's nothing, literally nothing, stopping the average person from finishing the game other than time, investment, and understanding. Most of the people saying the game is too hard are unwilling to meet it half way, don't want a game that will roadblock them for as little as an hour, and so forth. The outcry isn't coming from individuals with disabilities, it's coming from individuals with short attention spans, entitlement and expectations to consume content without effort.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
It is about understanding though. There's nothing, literally nothing, stopping the average person from finishing the game other than time, investment, and understanding. Most of the people saying the game is too hard are unwilling to meet it half way, don't want a game that will roadblock them for as little as an hour, and so forth. The outcry isn't coming from individuals with disabilities, it's coming from individuals with short attention spans, entitlement and expectations to consume content without effort.
"Average person", holy shit... i've been giving links to people with disabilities talking about the issue LIKE JUST THERE IN THE POST YOU QUOTED. And you dare to claim, it's because of short attention spans and entitlement. Tha'ts fucking disgusting and you are a bad person. I wish there was some options to give you more empathy and respect towards other people, rather than your sacred video games. /spit

This From Soft worship has to fucking stop, it's absolutely embarrassing the lenghts some of you go to. Miyazaki is a dude who develops good games, whoopty fucking doo. So do countless of others, but that doesn't mean their "vision" isn't constantly challenged by people. And it also doesn't make them infallible.
 
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VonGreckler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
It is about understanding though. There's nothing, literally nothing, stopping the average person from finishing the game other than time, investment, and understanding. Most of the people saying the game is too hard are unwilling to meet it half way, don't want a game that will roadblock them for as little as an hour, and so forth. The outcry isn't coming from individuals with disabilities, it's coming from individuals with short attention spans, entitlement and expectations to consume content without effort.

It's absolutely coming from individuals with disabilities.
Like, did you even read the post you quoted?

 
OP
OP
marrec

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
"Average person", holy shit... i've been giving links to people with disabilities talking about the issue LIKE JUST THERE IN THE POST YOU QUOTED. And you dare to claim, it's because of short attention spans and entitlement. Tha'ts fucking disgusting and you are a bad person. I wish there was some options to give you more empathy and respect towards other people, rather than your sacred video games. /spit
Please don't derail the thread with this uneccesary vitriol, I'm sure they did not intend to insult you.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
Please don't derail the thread with this uneccesary vitriol, I'm sure they did not intend to insult you.
They didn't insult me, they insulted people with disabilities asking for more options. And you know, if you do something wrong without intent there's often an apology. I don't see it.

And that same argument (or question) has been brought up 3 times already... how about stop derailing the thread with that shit instead. Yes people with disabilities have been asking for these things and it's presented in this thread with sources. Maybe include some of those tweets in your OP so it isn't asked again.
 
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SteamyPunk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
471
Isn't the completion percentage of From's games not much lower than those "easy" games? Gamers in general just don't stick through games till the end in high numbers, no matter how easy they are. Difficulty isn't the barrier, attention span is. So making these games easier will simply rob those who enjoy them as they currently are in an effort to satisfy people who will just find other reasons to drop the game after 10 hours anyway. The Souls games have players who invest hundreds or thousands of hours into them in order to master the mechanics and boss fights. It also has tons of players who quit after the first challenge rears its head. Shifting the design priorities from pleasing the first group to pleasing the second would be a huge mistake in my opinion.
 

Mr Punished

Member
Oct 27, 2017
600
OUTER HEAVEN
Yep.

The physical barriers should be removed, not the gameplay barriers.
This line of thinking is misguided. It's absolutely awesome that a quadriplegic person was able to feat Sekiro, but that was a personal independent achievement absolutely not reflective of the norm. In fact that's what makes that achievement so incredible. Much like that dude who marathoned all the Souls games and Bloodborne without getting hit once, awesome, but irrelevant when discussing thinks like difficulty.

Difficulty is often not balanced for the extreme, but instead the average, and when discussing accessibility one always assumes that it must refer to the disabled, but it would be silly to assume that all able bodied people are of equal capabilities. Accessibility means for everyone.

Using myself and my friend as an example, we're both healthy, otherwise able bodied people with no apparent disabilities that we're aware of. Yet, my playthrough of Sekiro has been pretty seamless, while he has struggled and been discouraged from playing due to not being able to rely on co-oping for bosses. A feature we both took advantage of and used since we started playing through Demon's Souls together all the way back before Dark Souls even existed.

He loves these types of games, and has deeply enjoyed Sekiro before he inevitably runs into a brick wall with a boss. A boss that takes him twice as long as me, twice as hard as me, just to get through. For him, reflexes, and just general coordination are way harder when under stress. He understands all the systems and has been deeply engrossed in these types of games for a long time, and maybe with a lot more effort he might overcome these limitations and reach a similar skill level to myself, but the effort required to achieve this has not been fun for him. Beating a boss for him is not rewarding, but instead a relief.

One might say he just needs to get good and not play this like Souls or whatever. Well, he doesn't play it like Souls, he plays it like Sekiro, he just ain't that good. Then, with that revelation, one might come in and chime that well, maybe Sekiro just ain't for him. Well, I reply, he damn well loves the game. Lots of people seem to think that difficulty is the sole defining factor of a From-like Souls game, and that it is the core experience. It is most definitely a core experience, but it's not the only reason for why one might just like these really unique games. The hyping of the difficulty is in fact to me rather undermining of all the other incredible things the game achieves. Visual design, exploration (exploration so damn good I might add that literally no other game out there even itches that scratch for what a new From game achieves), the setting, combat mechanics (but not necessarily the daunting difficulty that comes packaged with those mechanics), the stealth, the story, the incredible world building and lore, the music, the characters, the animations, character design... All top notch stuff that people could absolutely enjoy in Sekiro without difficulty being a factor.

Now, thing here is I don't think Sekiro needs a difficulty mode. I don't think From gotta add a difficulty mode, and I absolutely agree overcoming the game is a wondrous feeling. But I also feel if a difficulty mode was added, an easy mode, or hell, an even harder mode for the truly crazed, that it would do nothing but benefit the game with more accessibility and more options for the people that need and want those things. The question here shouldn't be why Sekiro does or doesn't need a difficulty mode, but instead, why not?
 
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VonGreckler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
Isn't the completion percentage of From's games not much lower than those "easy" games? Gamers in general just don't stick through games till the end in high numbers, no matter how easy they are. Difficulty isn't the barrier, attention span is. So making these games easier will simply rob those who enjoy them as they currently are in an effort to satisfy people who will just find other reasons to drop the game after 10 hours anyway. The Souls games have players who invest hundreds or thousands of hours into them in order to master the mechanics and boss fights. It also has tons of players who quit after the first challenge rears its head. Shifting the design priorities from pleasing the first group to pleasing the second would be a huge mistake in my opinion.

How would a lower difficulty OPTION (meaning you can choose not to select it) rob anyone of anything or effect anyone who does not want or need it? No one is asking to take away your hard videogames, just to present options for those who need them.
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,524
Portugal
Ben Pack decided to rile up the discourse on this again by tweeting the following:



Ben's a good guy, and I don't think he was disagreeing with the headline of the article. An easy mode certainly has not ever ruined a game.

However, I do agree with him that not every game has to be for every person. His tweet inspired a lot of the same kind of follow up you've likely seen in this past, conflating difficulty with accessibility and the old "Games are the only media that have difficulty barriers!"

I think everyone can agree that adding difficulty options isn't going to ruin your game... but why does that mean that every game needs to be as inclusively difficult as possible? Also, why is it that this discourse is only stirred at the release of the latest From game?

The main point of this thread is the ask the question, what is the difference between the difficulty in Sekiro and the difficulty in Crusader Kings 2? In my opinion, Paradox games are much more inaccessible than From games, yet you almost never see people gnashing their teeth because CK2 isn't for literally everyone. Is this because the control options are much more easily understood even if the mechanics and interactions are orders of magnitude more arcane?

Not sure if it has been said but i want to inform you that not only CK2 has difficulty options but you can also choose whom you start with. PDS games usually have a really high degree of costumability

here are some examples

CK2 for example has at the very least 12 rules that can be customized. Also PDS games are very modable so if there is a mechanics that you don't like there is a high chance there is a mod that changes that mechanic.


IMO comparing PDS games which have a very high customizability for their difficulty with from software games which barely have difficulty levels is dishonest.
 

Gush

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,096
"Average person", holy shit... i've been giving links to people with disabilities talking about the issue LIKE JUST THERE IN THE POST YOU QUOTED. And you dare to claim, it's because of short attention spans and entitlement. Tha'ts fucking disgusting and you are a bad person. I wish there was some options to give you more empathy and respect towards other people, rather than your sacred video games. /spit

This From Soft worship has to fucking stop, it's absolutely embarrassing the lenghts some of you go to. Miyazaki is a dude who develops good games, whoopty fucking doo. So do countless of others, but that doesn't mean their "vision" isn't constantly challenged by people. And it also doesn't make them infallible.

As I said prior, I don't have any issue with accessibility options, and I even encourage their existence going forward. Ideally I'd like for everyone to have the same experience I was able to have and to have it be equally as rewarding and enjoyable. My comments were in bad taste, which is obvious to both of us, but I was hastily responding to the notion of Understanding, and in my eagerness to respond I wasn't considering the context that response appeared in. It wasn't at all a stab at those with disabilities, but a large group of people who truly and honestly do not want to engage with the material, and maybe therefore shouldn't be rewarded for it, which was the context of my initial message in the first place.

My apologies. I have no ill intent towards anyone who wants to be able to participate, I only want those who are already able to participate to give themselves more credit and approach it from an angle where they meet the material half way or to at least understand why art of that nature exists. I don't have much experience with the extent to which gamers experience disabilities, and as you may be able to tell, I'm not entirely comfortable with the subject matter as result of my ignorance. It wasn't my intention to cause harm or make comments that could be perceived as ablest or, as you said, disgusting, but I made poor judgment calls and picked an argument at the wrong time when all I wanted to discuss initially was that there are many unique barriers to many artforms, and many merits to art that is difficult, dissonant, and unfriendly to the audience.
 

NattyBo

Member
Dec 29, 2017
4,316
Washington, DC
Beating NES Battletoads wasn't any less of an accomplishment just because Game Genie existed then.

I just don't get why people would care if they added an easy mode. I'd ignore it like I do in every other game I buy or play..
 

VonGreckler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
Beating NES Battletoads wasn't any less of an accomplishment just because Game Genie existed then.

I just don't get why people would care if they added an easy mode. I'd ignore it like I do in every other game I buy or play..


Exactly. I wouldn't use it, but if it let's people with disabilities enjoy the games that I enjoy then they should be implemented.
I want everyone (who wants to) to share in experiences I enjoy, I don't understand why certain members here want to gatekeep to those who aren't as able.
 

Mazinger

Banned
Nov 15, 2017
86
I can understand why you would abstain from including easier difficulty settings from an artistic viewpoint. For example, if the game's narrative is directly centered on player deaths and overcoming tough obstacles, then an Easy Mode would be rather counter-productive. For example, Kuro's line in the Ashina Castle top where he asks you how often you've died for his sake would have fallen flat completely if there was nothing that could kill you up to that point.

If the intent is to depict a harsh and unforgiving world, then having the gameplay be so easy that it's basically a power fantasy for the player wouldn't get across that idea to the player at all. But in the aforementioned case, what constitutes as "so easy"? Moreover, if the intent is to provide a challenging experience to the player, when is something challenging enough? For this reason, From is better off taking their losses and settling everything on one single degree of difficulty.

I don't think it's fair to say that From's games are hard solely to be hard. The unique opportunities for games as a medium to use challenge and difficulty as part of their story have been largely underrepresented by those who would normally praise narrative-focused games which focus more on the experience rather than the moment-to-moment challenge. I could ask for something like a Hard Mode in The Stanley Parable or GRIS and there probably could be a way of implementing that, but high challenge in those games isn't exactly the point. I'd probably be experiencing an entirely different game.

At the same time, the lack of any safety nets or ways to make the game easier on yourself could instead work as a motivation to get better and adapt to the game, possibly leading to some discoveries about the game and about yourself as you find yourself accomplishing things you thought you could never do. Like, you know this is as easy as it's going to get, so you might as well make the most of it. I certainly had this feeling with """"""SUPEREASY"""""" difficulty in Alien Soldier which after clearing it turned out to be little more than false advertising as it was SUPERHARD but with only a few bells and whistles turned down (Alien Soldier only has two difficulty settings, SUPEREASY and SUPERHARD), but it was what helped me push forward after trying out SUPERHARD first but getting my ass beat two steps from the starting line. On another note, I remember when I first cleared Ninja Gaiden for the NES without using any continues. I never 1cc'd a game before, but after that I felt like I could take on anything.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
If someone with hemiparesis has the self-control to not turn it on, then as able-bodied so should you . Isn't this how we are doing this?

Individual levels of impulse control have nothing to do with one's level of accessibility needs.

it still limits its market. if it was an easier game for instance, then I would be interested in it. but all I hear is that its hard so I stay away.

If the intent was a specific market then the product was built properly by catering to that group even if it excludes other groups.

Beating NES Battletoads wasn't any less of an accomplishment just because Game Genie existed then.

I just don't get why people would care if they added an easy mode. I'd ignore it like I do in every other game I buy or play..

Hasn't been our choice for the last 6 games. Probably still won't if we see number 7.

Also, arguably yes, it is different with a game genie. Whatever functions or cheats you used created a task you didn't have to perform as you would in the base game. Subjectively it may have felt no different personally. Objectively it was different.
 
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Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
As I said prior, I don't have any issue with accessibility options, and I even encourage their existence going forward. Ideally I'd like for everyone to have the same experience I was able to have and to have it be equally as rewarding and enjoyable. My comments were in bad taste, which is obvious to both of us, but I was hastily responding to the notion of Understanding, and in my eagerness to respond I wasn't considering the context that response appeared in. It wasn't at all a stab at those with disabilities, but a large group of people who truly and honestly do not want to engage with the material, and maybe therefore shouldn't be rewarded for it, which was the context of my initial message in the first place.

My apologies. I have no ill intent towards anyone who wants to be able to participate, I only want those who are already able to participate to give themselves more credit and approach it from an angle where they meet the material half way or to at least understand why art of that nature exists. I don't have much experience with the extent to which gamers experience disabilities, and as you may be able to tell, I'm not entirely comfortable with the subject matter as result of my ignorance. It wasn't my intention to cause harm or make comments that could be perceived as ablest or, as you said, disgusting, but I made poor judgment calls and picked an argument at the wrong time when all I wanted to discuss initially was that there are many unique barriers to many artforms, and many merits to art that is difficult, dissonant, and unfriendly to the audience.
Sure, people without disabilities also want options that's very true. It's just that I quite hate it how people discussing this kinda seem to want push the people with disabilities aside, like they wouldn't be part of the discussion at all. And they're a disadvantaged and opressed minority, so people should absolutely hear them. People would much rather argue against "casuals" than disabled people on this matter, that's understandable. But these options can't be implemented in a way that only people with disabilities would use them. Like some people who play on consoles, need to use m+kb even on multiplayer. This should be possible (as it largely is I think), but that also opens this option to people who don't need it. They use it because it gives them better K/D ratio. Best can be done, is to clearly communicate the intentions of assist mode in example and how it's not the intendend way to play. I'm sure everyone won't agree with me on this, but I'd also could be in favor of achievements being only for unassisted play. I can see how that wouldn't be fair to people, who felt like they achieved something through their effort but aren't rewarded for it. But let's call it a compromise.

And sorry on my part for getting so heated, it's just that I've been biting my tongue on these discussions already with many posts. But you happened to directly quote me so it caused a strong reaction, especially since it was the third time in this thread someone implied the same as you (even while there have been sources posted). You still would have deserved a benefit of the doubt. And I should really cool down a bit and probably log off for a while, these discussions have been taxing. It was unfair to lash everything out on you that has been bubbling inside for longer.
Individual levels of impulse control have nothing to do with one's level of accessibility needs.
It was a sarcastic remark, since many people have said that assist modes/cheats/difficulty options shouldn't be implemented because they couldn't control themselves. And a reference to a silly thing that was said earlier in the thread. Nothing serious.
 
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Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,659
Isn't that fine though? It's okay if you don't want to play it because it's too hard.
yes it is perfectly fine. devs are free to do what they want and I am free to stay away. my original point was that if games want to hit a broader market, they need to have different difficulty options, when devs makes difficult games, they better be aware that they are pushing away potential customers. so if a dev is willing to make that sacrifice, more power to them.
 

Cooking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,451
yes it is perfectly fine. devs are free to do what they want and I am free to stay away. my original point was that if games want to hit a broader market, they need to have different difficulty options, when devs makes difficult games, they better be aware that they are pushing away potential customers. so if a dev is willing to make that sacrifice, more power to them.

They're making plenty of money going their own way, which makes any sort of change less likely.

FWIW, Miyazaki has said he wants the games to provide a big sense of accomplishment through overcoming overwhelming odds, so the difficulty is absolutely a part of the design and intended experience.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
yes it is perfectly fine. devs are free to do what they want and I am free to stay away. my original point was that if games want to hit a broader market, they need to have different difficulty options, when devs makes difficult games, they better be aware that they are pushing away potential customers. so if a dev is willing to make that sacrifice, more power to them.

Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3, Bloodborne and now Sekiro have held this position from this developer. At a certain point we have to come to terms with the notion that a developer has probably found their audience and want to stick with them and the experiences they want to create for that group to consume.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,731
I feel like if Dark Souls already allows you to completely trivialize difficulty in a number of ways (and From has absolutely patched their games in the past to make certain areas less difficult); and Celeste, a game where the story is that you face the most on-the-nose possible symbols for challenge (climbing a mountain, dealing with personal issues) allows you to trivialize the challenge with options; and another genre (character action) that's also based on mastering high level execution, high reward, the-real-game-is-when-you-master-it-on-hard, also offers difficulty modes so easy that they can seem condescending or even let the game half play itself, then there's no magical line that Sekiro, as an example, would cross by adding options.

It's not even like From Soft games are solely enjoyed for their challenge. People enjoy their ambience, their character designs, their haunting music, their atmospheric environments, their particular brand of storytelling.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,421
yes it is perfectly fine. devs are free to do what they want and I am free to stay away. my original point was that if games want to hit a broader market, they need to have different difficulty options, when devs makes difficult games, they better be aware that they are pushing away potential customers. so if a dev is willing to make that sacrifice, more power to them.
I think it's arguable that Demon Souls etc. only found success because they were so punishing. If they just had an easy mode I can't really imagine it ever really taking off
 

Mr Punished

Member
Oct 27, 2017
600
OUTER HEAVEN
They're making plenty of money going their own way, which makes any sort of change less likely.

FWIW, Miyazaki has said he wants the games to provide a big sense of accomplishment through overcoming overwhelming odds, so the difficulty is absolutely a part of the design and intended experience.
Thing is though, that difficulty doesn't translate equally to everyone. This game is a breeze for some folks, but for sure no one is arguing that the game should be harder for those people that aren't getting the intended experience. Because doing such a thing would make it really inaccessible to the majority of people. That's often why there are difficulty modes in the first place, so that most people can get the experience. An easy mode in Sekiro could still bring that feeling of satisfaction to a less skilled player.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3, Bloodborne and now Sekiro have held this position from this developer. At a certain point we have to come to terms with the notion that a developer has probably found their audience and want to stick with them and the experiences they want to create for that group to consume.
Well people have complained about Ubisoft "formula" for a decade, yet people still continue to complain about it. Like there would be something wrong with it. I guess it's called giving feedback.
 

Windu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,659
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3, Bloodborne and now Sekiro have held this position from this developer. At a certain point we have to come to terms with the notion that a developer has probably found their audience and want to stick with them and the experiences they want to create for that group to consume.
yep which is fine. but very difficult games are still a smaller market than games that are built for different skill levels. if a dev is ok with that market size, then thats fine.
 

Gush

Member
Nov 17, 2017
2,096
Sure, people without disabilities also want options that's very true. It's just that I quite hate it how people discussing this kinda seem to want push the people with disabilities aside, like they wouldn't be part of the discussion at all. And they're an opressed minority, so people should absolutely hear them. People would much rather argue against "casuals" than disabled people on this matter, that's understandable. And these options can't be implemented in a way that only people with disabilities would use them. Best can be done, is to clearly communicate the intentions of assist mode in example and how it's not the intendend way to play. I'm sure everyone won't agree with me on this, but I'd also could be in favor of achievements being only for unassisted play. I can see how that wouldn't be fair to people, who felt like they achieved something through their effort but aren't rewarded for it. But let's call it a compromise.

And sorry on my part for getting so heated, it's just that I've been biting my tongue on these discussions already with many posts. But you happened to directly quote me so it caused a strong reaction, especially since it was the third time in this thread someone implied the same as you (even while there have been sources posted). You still would have deserved a benefit of the doubt. And I should really cool down a bit and probably log off for a while, these discussions have been taxing.

It's okay, I understand why you'd be so frustrated and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't in the wrong here.

You're right that it's easier for people, like me, to target those they perceive as casual or what have you than to actually engage with a conversation about people who could use and benefit these features, and it's easy to use that casual audience as a crutch to hold onto ideas that are exclusionary and harmful to others who just want to enjoy something equally, or want others to enjoy something equally. I can only imagine how irritating and enraging it can be to see someone pick battles with the easy targets as a way to validate their discrimination against those with disabilities or opt out of a discussion that centers around inclusion.

I do believe art should be allowed and even encouraged to be dissonant, but I can't argue with anything you've said and I'd support developers taking on any endeavors you, and others, suggest if it meant more people could get those feelings of joy, frustration and accomplishment that I've had in the past. Coming from a place of appreciating difficult art, be it literature, music, film or games, it's easy to want to push people into having the same experience as you, but I shouldn't forget that there are a lot of people who would really love to do that, but are unable due to external factors. There are many ways to increase accessibility, as well as to create a terrifying, daunting and powerful experience, and they don't need to be mutually exclusive.

My apologies again, thank you.
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,307
I mean, the downside is the increased development time and resources obviously.

Yes, some developers simply don't have the resources necesary to dedicate toward tweaking difficulty options just right.

Most of my issues with Sekiro is that the enemies seem to deal way better attack damage than you do, even the non-boss ones. Then you get bosses where one attack can take over half your health bar. Meanwhile I'm doing small chip damage if I don't get a perfect guard/reflect. It just doesn't seem very balanced. If all they did was create a mode where the damage modifiers were decreased for enemies and/or increased for the player character, that would not take much time to implement.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Well people have complained about Ubisoft "formula" for a decade, yet people still continue to complain about it. Like there would be something wrong with it. I guess it's called giving feedback.

Giving feedback is fine, the issue I've seen is confusing feedback for a moral imperative. The idea that a hard mode is not specifically diminished by an easy mode (leaving aside the earlier comments on impulse control and patience) seems to be used as a bludgeon to compel support for an easy mode from those that don't want or need it.

We've established that this is a design decision, yet pointing out that this game may not be for everyone because of that decision seems to get labelled as ableist rather than a simple observation of facts with no control over the actual decisions which led to the game being what it is.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
It's okay, I understand why you'd be so frustrated and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't in the wrong here.

You're right that it's easier for people, like me, to target those they perceive as casual or what have you than to actually engage with a conversation about people who could use and benefit these features, and it's easy to use that casual audience as a crutch to hold onto ideas that are exclusionary and harmful to others who just want to enjoy something equally, or want others to enjoy something equally. I can only imagine how irritating and enraging it can be to see someone pick battles with the easy targets as a way to validate their discrimination against those with disabilities or opt out of a discussion that centers around inclusion.

I do believe art should be allowed and even encouraged to be dissonant, but I can't argue with anything you've said and I'd support developers taking on any endeavors you, and others, suggest if it meant more people could get those feelings of joy, frustration and accomplishment that I've had in the past. Coming from a place of appreciating difficult art, be it literature, music, film or games, it's easy to want to push people into having the same experience as you, but I shouldn't forget that there are a lot of people who would really love to do that, but are unable due to external factors. There are many ways to increase accessibility, as well as to create a terrifying, daunting and powerful experience, and they don't need to be mutually exclusive.

My apologies again, thank you.
Yeah I get difficult art. Some would probably call many tracks by Buckethead (my avatar) difficult and definitely hard to enjoy. Some of the stuff can be acquired taste. But I don't think it's a valid to compare, because the barrier in games is also physical. It's very different difficulty, comparing not understanding a movie would be more valid if it was compared to the story and themes of From Soft games. Like after beating Bloodborne, I could say I didn't get it, the hell is that slug about? I might not have got it, I might not even have enjoyed it, I could beat the game and still didn't get it. After watching a movie I can say that I didn't get it and didn't like, but I got to watch it. There were no extra barriers for me to watch it, just had to keep my eyes open. My hearing is fine too, so no captions for me were needed while others do need them.
It's not about getting it, it's about being able to experience it.
Giving feedback is fine, the issue I've seen is confusing feedback for a moral imperative. The idea that a hard mode is not specifically diminished by an easy mode (leaving aside the earlier comments on impulse control and patience) seems to be used as a bludgeon to compel support for an easy mode from those that don't want or need it.

We've established that this is a design decision, yet pointing out that this game may not be for everyone because of that decision seems to get labelled as ableist rather than a simple observation of facts with no control over the actual decisions which led to the game being what it is.
Sure the game doesn't need to be for everyone, no entertainment and art isn't for everyone. But there are people who feel the games ARE for them, but because of their unfortunate circumstances they don't get to enjoy them. It's about giving the ability to choose based on people's own interest.
 
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OP
OP
marrec

marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
We need to disengage difficulty with accessibility because when we conflate these two things it brings with it a moral argument. Design choice should not be a moral stance, difficulty is not ethical.
 

ManNR

Member
Feb 13, 2019
2,989
Yeah, I'll never understand this argument. Literature specifically can have barriers to entry that can make understanding it completely impossible for many readers, even those with a strong command of language. The average person complaining about Sekiro would have a much harder time reading Minima Moralia or Critique of Pure Reason and would likely hit similar roadblocks with frustration.

While I think we should absolutely 100% bridge all gaps possible to increase accessibility and allow as many people to experience a game as possible, I don't think that's an issue with difficulty first and foremost, and I don't think there's anything wrong with something being daunting, having high expectations of the player, or setting out to design a specific set of scenarios that exist to punish and reward in equal measure.

Some of the best art can seem impenetrable at times, and that's totally fine. There's a lot of merit to dissonant art, be it Merzbow, Finnegans Wake, or whatever the case may be, and I'm not sure softening that stuff should be something asked of the creators.
Finnigans Wake was exactly what I thought about. Sure, anyone theoretically could understand it but it will take a ton of time, research, lateral thinking skills, familiarity with myths & religion, and comprehension of multiple languages & dialects.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
Sure the game doesn't need to be for everyone, no entertainment and art isn't for everyone. But there are people who feel the games ARE for them, but because of their unfortunate circumstances they don't get to enjoy them. It's about giving the ability to choose based on people's own interest.

That feeling is an interesting point of debate. If the game is built to demand specific timing and fidelity from the player, but the player cannot meet those requirements in terms of skill specifically, is it still for them because they feel it is or should be?
 

VonGreckler

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,284
We need to disengage difficulty with accessibility because when we conflate these two things it brings with it a moral argument. Design choice should not be a moral stance, difficulty is not ethical.

That's not how people who need these features see it, though.
They would tell you that difficulty settings are accessibility options for them. Not everyone's disability hampers their ability in the same way.