MS uses litteral patents from Mark Cerny in their VRS parents... Explain that
Link please as MS already confirmed the yhave their own patent I am very curious to know more about it :)
MS uses litteral patents from Mark Cerny in their VRS parents... Explain that
There's no way this isn't a pasta. 🤣It's as I feared. What an absolute mess. If the NDA is still in place, it's for a reason. They know devs will criticize this.
There is nothing about this that doesn't scream "Fuck, Microsoft caught us off-guard". So they overclock the shit out of their system in order to keep up... I just can't, man.
I don't trust anything they say. I'll be waiting for the comparisons and the NDA to lift. What a fucking shitshow.
Since you work in Activision so I suppose you worked on some AAA titles (because apparently from today, AA and Indie devs are not good devs 🤡), do you agree with the general sentiment that Ps5 is more closer to SeX than the raw TFlops number make it look like?You can have primitives with their own designated attributes but I don't know how flexible, or intelligent, they are. I've only seen rudimentary commands implemented. I planned on pestering folks about a lot of nitty gritty details like that last week but the world had other plans.
Based on these posts, you'd think the compute differences from these machines is massive when in reality it is closer than consoles have been for a long time. Like, this is what it seems to me people are suggesting:
XBox1x >>>40%>>> PS4pro
Series X >>>>>>>>>>>20%>>>>>>>>>> PS5.
Since you work in Activision so I suppose you worked on some AAA titles (because apparently from today, AA and Indie devs are not good devs 🤡), do you agree with the general sentiment that Ps5 is more closer to SeX than the raw TFlops number make it look like?
I'm asking since I'm completely ignorant on this.
Lmao, gotcha!Oh, I couldn't say. I'm also not certain what you mean by closer. I understand a bit of this tech stuff but the programmers and engineers on our teams are the people I go to for that "DF on steroids" insight.
The TFLOP gap certainly isn't substantial enough to warrant the tomfoolery seen on these boards the last few days. With TFLOPs gaming consoles have finally found their Megapixels.
✌🏾
Damn, this analogy is beyond brilliant actually.Matt Phillips on Twitter
“@man_compute Wtf is a "6tflop console", you're just making this up. Teraflop measures one part of the pipeline of one discreet component of a console. You don't call your car a "12 gallon fuel tank saloon" like that means anything”twitter.com
You might however call it a 400 hp car. Even though that's only part of a car's performance equation.Matt Phillips on Twitter
“@man_compute Wtf is a "6tflop console", you're just making this up. Teraflop measures one part of the pipeline of one discreet component of a console. You don't call your car a "12 gallon fuel tank saloon" like that means anything”twitter.com
Link please as MS already confirmed the yhave their own patent I am very curious to know more about it :)
Here's the Microsoft patent. Just look through the "References Cited" section for Cerny's patent (which itself references multiple other Sony patents for related tech).
Note that this does not mean that Microsoft used Sony ideas in their implementation. Just the opposite, in fact: the references are there as part of Microsoft's claim that they're not trying to patent existing ideas over again, but that theirs is a unique method. What the presence of the Cerny patent does show--alongside the other referenced works by Nvidia, AMD, etc.--is that variable rate shading is something the whole field of graphical engineers have been working toward for years. That's why it's part of the Turing architecture, part of the RDNA architecture, and why many people expect it to be in PS5.
Thanks but even the post says they are not using patents from Sony and those reference cites are in each patent if there is something related to it.
A 400hp car is great on straights with adequate tires. And with an ecu that helps deliver those 400hp.You might however call it a 400 hp car. Even though that's only part of a car's performance equation.
You might however call it a 400 hp car. Even though that's only part of a car's performance equation.
Yes, but the engine is only part of the car. Weight, aerodynamics, suspension, tires, etc. impact how fast a car would go around a track.I don't know anything about cars, I thought that was the total output of the engine not a piece of it.
Yep, exactly.A 400hp car is great on straights with adequate tires. And with an ecu that helps deliver those 400hp.
A car with less hp can perform better in many scenarios (as long it also has good tires etc etc)
It is a great selling point, but not the only one nor the full picture
Yes, but the engine is only part of the car. Weight, aerodynamics, suspension, tires, etc. impact how fast a car would go around a track.
Right, but basically the point of the analogy is that flops is rating the peak GPU performance, like horsepower is rating the peak engine performance, but a console is not just a GPU much like how a car is not just an engine.Lol, I'm really out of my depth here, I thought flops would be like just examining a part of a cars engine. But then I would have to start naming bits to make that analogy work :D
The comparison is not good here.Yes, but the engine is only part of the car. Weight, aerodynamics, suspension, tires, etc. impact how fast a car would go around a track.
Right, but basically the point of the analogy is that flops is rating the peak GPU performance, like horsepower is rating the peak engine performance, but a console is not just a GPU much like how a car is not just an engine.
MS does notuse Sony's patents, but he was responding to the troll saying Sony doesn't have VRS when it appears everyone has patented their own version of VRS but calling it something different for obvious reasons.
TBF, Project Acoustics it's really amazing. The only "problem" is that MS really haven't talked much about it. I'll leave this here
Project Acoustics: Making Waves with Triton - Microsoft Research
Project Acoustics is now available for all game developers and sound designers to use. It employs the Triton technology developed in Microsoft Research for accurate sound propagation using wave physics. Learn more about the research at aka.ms/Project-Triton Download Project Acoustics at...www.microsoft.com
Do you really believe XSX SSD is a bottleneck? XSX is one of the fastest on the market.I have a feeling they will design games around PS5's power and XSX's ssd. So i believe most PS5 games will feature the same resoultion as the XSX games. They might be using dynamic res in some games, but the difference in power is much smaller than last time. It was much harder to hit 1080p on x1 than it will be to hit 4K on PS5 in comparison. X1x and PS4Pro are no indication, because those were purely designed for higher resolution.
I might be wrong but just a feeling.
You cannot say PS5 should be about PS5 and bring up XSX, plus XSX's SSD is off the shelf? It's custom too... And they have not gone into details about their SSD controllers etc, only the API. Most of this is guess given that NDA are still in place and details are scare.Hey you're here too! Hello
Ok, so if you want actual physical evidence that you won't be getting any for a good long time. In fact, even when they start making next-gen only AAA titles you probably won't see much differences. You'll have to wait till Sony makes their first PS5 first party title to see exactly why they would spend so much of their research time and BOM budget on their extremely custom SSD. I mean, surely they wouldn't have done that if they thought there wouldn't be a tangible benefit of going with their custom SSD rather than using a more off-the-shelf solution like MS did. Unless Cerny is lying again.
Andrea Pessino on Twitter
“Which is why focusing on metrics is missing the big picture. I am excited about the PS5 because I think many smart decisions were made that will enable devs to design in new ways, *especially* for expansive games. I was not making a comparison, just sharing my optimism. ❤️”twitter.comAndrea Pessino on Twitter
“A console is more than a sum of specs - of course incremental hardware improvements are important, but abstractions, APIs, integration, and most of all *architecture* are even more so. That's where the biggest innovations are to come in this age of diminishing returns. ...”twitter.com
This. Listen to what people who actually make games are saying. Both machines are extremely competent, and both will have their own significant strengths to play to. At the end of the day, the real take away is that they are essentially machines of the same class/caliber. This is a really good thing for everyone.
Very interesting stuff. Some people downplay SSD speed as just being slightly faster load times but it has several other ramifications and benefits in the actual rendering of the game. With regards to machine learning and such, I'm pretty sure they'll be there, seeing as they wouldn't have chosen to go with RDNA2 only to then not take advantage of those features.What interests me is how Sony will use that IO/SSD for agressive culling. Horizon Zero dawn already looks that good because of it. In the right hands, very agressive culling (like loading at the near edge of the view cone) with these loading speeds could give Sony quite the edge in terms of what can be displayed on screen with a lot of diversity in the scene. This might make the TFLOPs difference even more negligeable.
What i'm curious about though is the lack of machine learning/AI discussion from Sony's camp. This imo is more important than TFLOPs, it's the way forward and can save a shitload of processing power. Microsoft was clear on this subject. Do we think PS5's CUs took those parallelism features of 8/4 bits for machine learning? I have not heard about this since the unveiling.
What interests me is how Sony will use that IO/SSD for agressive culling. Horizon Zero dawn already looks that good because of it. In the right hands, very agressive culling (like loading at the near edge of the view cone) with these loading speeds could give Sony quite the edge in terms of what can be displayed on screen with a lot of diversity in the scene. This might make the TFLOPs difference even more negligeable.
What i'm curious about though is the lack of machine learning/AI discussion from Sony's camp. This imo is more important than TFLOPs, it's the way forward and can save a shitload of processing power. Microsoft was clear on this subject. Do we think PS5's CUs took those parallelism features of 8/4 bits for machine learning? I have not heard about this since the unveiling.
what is drawing cycles, GE, and mesh shaders? I am not savvy to any of this tech talk.Processes in the GE happen before you even begin drawing cycles, which is where VRS comes into play. See NVIDIA Turing mesh shaders for a better idea at what's happening here.
One thing I hope studios are thinking about is creating systems for higher quality procedurally generated assets. These SSD improvements open up the door for vaster and more intricately designed spaces, which are going to require a whole helluva lot more art.
Hey you're here too! Hello
Ok, so if you want actual physical evidence that you won't be getting any for a good long time. In fact, even when they start making next-gen only AAA titles you probably won't see much differences. You'll have to wait till Sony makes their first PS5 first party title to see exactly why they would spend so much of their research time and BOM budget on their extremely custom SSD. I mean, surely they wouldn't have done that if they thought there wouldn't be a tangible benefit of going with their custom SSD rather than using a more off-the-shelf solution like MS did. Unless Cerny is lying again.
The pragmatic approach it to wait and see, but the way right now it is being pushed and hyped is just silly, MS showcased what some of the features they have lined up with the Minecraft demo which is mind blowing, and people are just like meh.
Yet we have a SSD which is supposed to revolutionize gaming forever that by the looks of it will only be really optimized for 1st party games with out as much as a comparison between a current gen NVME and the PS5 SSD which Sony could have easily demonstrated at GDC instead we have a comparison with current gen with the Spider-Man demo.
Someone actually show performance difference between a current gen NVME vs a next gen NVME that is similar to PS5 SSD so that there is a reason to be hyped.
DF stated that was a tech demo completed by a single developer over a week so that was HARDLY optimized.Yeah but when what they show off is Minecraft and it can't even run 1080p at 60fps as confirmed by DF it's not hard to understand we won't be getting 4k60fps AAA games running on these machines fully ray traced regardless probably.
A hybrid approach is more likely what this gen will offer and that IMO while still nice is not game changing and will be doable on both machines just that the PS5 will have 15% less of it basically.
At this point, I don't think there's anything anyone can say or show you that will change your mind. It's clear from the way you've worded your posts up to now that you're very platform biased. Just let the argument go and wait until we get some good next gen titles to compare.The pragmatic approach it to wait and see, but the way right now it is being pushed and hyped is just silly, MS showcased what some of the features they have lined up with the Minecraft demo which is mind blowing, and people are just like meh.
Yet we have a SSD which is supposed to revolutionize gaming forever that by the looks of it will only be really optimized for 1st party games with out as much as a comparison between a current gen NVME and the PS5 SSD which Sony could have easily demonstrated at GDC instead we have a comparison with current gen with the Spider-Man demo.
Someone actually show performance difference between a current gen NVME vs a next gen NVME that is similar to PS5 SSD so that there is a reason to be hyped.
DF stated that was a tech demo completed by a single developer over a week so that was HARDLY optimized.
I know but if you believe that means they can get it to 4K60FPS a increase of more that would require more than 4 times the computation and then some is not probable in any sense.
It runs worse then ray tracing mods do on a RTX2080 but probably with some extra hands on deck it might run equal or a bit better. A 4x increase however is just not in the conversation.
I don't understand why people get so emotionally invested in these companies and their consoles. Like, these are products. I can understand why you might feel strongly about a game, because games can be art, and art resonates with people. But hardware?
You buy the console you want to buy, others will do the same, and that's about it. The relative "power" of a console should only matter as far as it helps you make that decision. What does anyone achieve by being rude and hostile to others about their choices?
We will only know when a game is designed for the XSX, any game just being modified to work on it won't have the same level of optimization. Also, there are different levels of RT that different games will have use for.