Otakukidd

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Oct 25, 2017
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From watching the presentation I came to the same conclusion as you did but Alex from Digital Foundry got some off the record info from PS5 developers and he had this to say:



As for fluctuating wildly, that is my interpretation of this exchange:
I know it's been asked but I still haven't seen anywhere DF says they heard this from developers. Even the second part of what you say says it's a hunch. If you watch the video Cerny mentions it does Smart shift in conjunction with the boosted clocks and should be able to do 3.6 and 12.28 at the same time for majority of loads.
 
Mar 22, 2020
90
There is a reason why both parties are reluctant to give any prices yet.
I don't know if you're close to a release yet, they might not announce prices soon, especially with the current pandemic.
There's an argument to be made whether they might chose similar prices as before, selling at a loss, or also choose to raise prices a bit. It's probably more complex to guess prices, whoever announces it first sets the bar for the competition though.
  • If Sony announces a price of X, MS will announces theirs at about X +100/150$,
  • and similarly, if MS announces a price of Y, Sony will announces Y -100/150$.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,281
Based on cerny's explanation it's quite clear that the power consumption of the system remains constant while the temperature may vary (but considering how the system works it shouldn't vary too much). He explicitly states that the power consumption remains constant and that they looked at using the temperature to decide the clock but decided against that because of too many variables, instead they clock the system based on the "activities of the CPU and the GPU".

As a computer engineer, I'm telling you that it's impossible for the power consumption to always remain constant. They are capping power consumption, at least to the degree that their power model lets them. But it will not remain constant.

If the console is idle, it's not going to be pulling max power. If the CPU is going full tilt on AVX, and the GPU is rendering and has to cut frequency to stay within the power envelope, it will be at Max power. But there's a huge gulf with all sorts of power values between idle and "full tilt."
 
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Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
I don't know if you're close to a release yet, they might not announce prices soon, especially with the current pandemic.
There's an argument to be made whether they might chose similar prices as before, selling at a loss, or also choose to raise prices a bit. It's probably more complex to guess prices, whoever announces it first sets the bar for the competition though.
  • If Sony announces a price of X, MS will announces theirs at about X +100/150$,
  • and similarly, if MS announces a price of Y, Sony will announces Y -100/150$.
Phil Spencer already said they will not be out of position on price or power. So either Lockhart exists or Microsoft is more willing to take a loss.
 

Chris Metal

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Oct 25, 2017
2,596
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Well, this is a specs thread. I don't think that talking about specs, even being critical of them or disappointed by them, is in any way antithetical to talking about games and being excited about games. Both discussions can take place at the same time in my opinion.
Not really what I meant. Of course both discussions should and can take place... It's the way people are choosing to react that's the problem. I'm saying that the power difference this time is so small, yet you're getting people loosing their shit over it. Rather it was wider between One X and Pro and still the reactions were minor between multiplat comparisons or people simply didn't care. Not only that, the anticipation for the titles I previously mentioned is through the roof yet we don't see One X used to downplay them on PS4 with what could of been given better specs. So why this pile on to Cerny or questioning of devs excitement in the hardware, where there's about a small power deficit in Series X favour. 16/17% was it... Will be barely noticeable, so the nonsensical posting is pointless right now especially when we haven't seen a single decent length of gameplay from next gen. Godfall is the closest we have to gameplay.
Hellblade 2 is basically this equivalent atm... But I expect it'll reach closer to what was shown going by Ninjas accomplishments in the first game.

r86pgE.gif
 

Tiago Rodrigues

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Nov 15, 2018
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Yes we all know Sony has a better brand globally but why are we are talking about this when the next consoles won't be matched the same way? You had one system that was advertised as a set-top TV box coming off of a marketing push still going on with Kinect and a machine that not only cost $100 more but was quite a bit less powerful. You had huge titles like Call of Duty looking better on a system that was 25% cheaper.

Yes Microsoft will still have hurdles to overcome next gen, mainly mindshare and getting past the momentum Sony has had all current gen but Microsoft is in a lot better shape.

There is a reason why both parties are reluctant to give any prices yet.

It is in a much better shape but they will still release the most expensive console almost for sure. And in a post-corona virus world, and once people realize the gap between them won't be even that noticeable (unless they go to Digital Foundry) all of it will matter. They know this and that's why they will have Lockhart.

This conversation will stop once Sony actually shows the console, controller, exclusives etc. If on top of that, they release the cheaper console, they will do amazing.
 

Iron Eddie

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Nov 25, 2019
9,812
It is in a much better shape but they will still release the most expensive console almost for sure. And in a post-corona virus world, and once people realize the gap between them won't be even that noticeable (unless they go to Digital Foundry) all of it will matter. They know this and that's why they will have Lockhart.

This conversation will stop once Sony actually shows the console, controller, exclusives etc. If on top of that, they release the cheaper console, they will do amazing.
Yes we get it, you are very excited for the PS5 and not so much for Series X regardless of what they will be priced at.
 

Deleted member 61469

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It is in a much better shape but they will still release the most expensive console almost for sure. And in a post-corona virus world, and once people realize the gap between them won't be even that noticeable (unless they go to Digital Foundry) all of it will matter. They know this and that's why they will have Lockhart.

This conversation will stop once Sony actually shows the console, controller, exclusives etc. If on top of that, they release the cheaper console, they will do amazing.

I doubt it. I bet they will cost exactly the same.
 

Alexandros

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Oct 26, 2017
17,921
Not really what I meant. Of course both discussions should and can take place... It's the way people are choosing to react that's the problem. I'm saying that the power difference this time is so small, yet you're getting people loosing their shit over it. Rather it was wider between One X and Pro and still the reactions were minor between multiplat comparisons or people simply didn't care. Not only that, the anticipation for the titles I previously mentioned is through the roof yet we don't see One X used to downplay them on PS4 with what could of been given better specs. So why this pile on to Cerny or questioning of devs excitement in the hardware, where there's about a small power deficit in Series X favour. 16/17% was it... Will be barely noticeable, so the nonsensical posting is pointless right now especially when we haven't seen a single decent length of gameplay from next gen. Godfall is the closest we have to gameplay.
Hellblade 2 is basically this equivalent atm... But I expect it'll reach closer to what was shown going by Ninjas accomplishments in the first game.

I don't agree that the differences will be barely noticeable. Xbox Series X has the advantage in GPU, CPU, RAM bandwidth and very possibly Ray Tracing performance. Playstation 5 has the advantage in SSD speed. I expect each console's advantages to be obvious to the naked eye.
 

Cyborg

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Oct 30, 2017
1,955
The fact that there are so many subjects (BC, VRS, CPU/GPU speeds etc.) that Sony needs to clarify and the fact that there is so much discussion going on proves that Sony dropped the ball hard.
 

Outrun

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Oct 30, 2017
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The fact that there are so many subjects (BC, VRS, CPU/GPU speeds etc.) that Sony needs to clarify and the fact that there is so much discussion going on proves that Sony dropped the ball hard.

Lack of particular information does not mean that they dropped the ball.

They will release information when it suit them.
 

Pheonix

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Dec 14, 2018
5,990
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I don't agree that the differences will be barely noticeable. Xbox Series X has the advantage in GPU, CPU, RAM bandwidth and very possibly Ray Tracing performance. Playstation 5 has the advantage in SSD speed. I expect each console's advantages to be obvious to the naked eye.
You would be wrong. There would be a difference, and advantages, but not obvious to the naked eye.

Well... I've said this a couple of times, where the XSX has an advantage and would shine, would end up being in an area that isn't going to be obvious and would be particularly hard to spot. Where thePS5 has its advantage though, would be easy to spot.

I think all you have to do is look at games like doom eternal or RE3 or even RDR2 running on the PS4proand XB1X. Then look at the vast difference in the hardware running those games and realized that the difference in hardware for next-gen is significantly smaller than that. Maybe then you would understand why I (and people like me) keep saying the difference is not going to be an obvious one.
 

Cyborg

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Oct 30, 2017
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Lack of particular information does not mean that they dropped the ball.

They will release information when it suit them.
Well I dont agree. If you reveal something be specific ant try to eliminate confusion and dont give opportunity to random people to start filling the gaps and in some cases create a negative vibe.
 

Outrun

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Oct 30, 2017
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But that's the thing, apparently it suits them now and they simply fucked up its initial delivery.

Well I dont agree. If you reveal something be specific ant try to eliminate confusion and dont give opportunity to random people to start filling the gaps and in some cases create a negative vibe.

We have to understand that the general public are none the wiser for any perceived lack of information.

When the PS5 is shown on CNN etc... it will be shown with games. And the games will do the selling. Not the SSD speed or frequencies or whatever it is that we, on ERA, are concerned about.
 

CrispyGamer

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Jan 4, 2020
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Numerous devs stating the consoles are close while we still argue over the differences smh it's time to grow up both consoles will be great and whoever tries to downplay either side should be ignored
 

Cyborg

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Oct 30, 2017
1,955
We have to understand that the general public are none the wiser for any perceived lack of information.

When the PS5 is shown on CNN etc... it will be shown with games. And the games will do the selling. Not the SSD speed or frequencies or whatever it is that we, on ERA, are concerned about.
Well ERA and in the past the old site can be a savior or pain in the ass. I think a lot of buzz is created here (positive and negative) I think you would want to make your story as clear as possible so you have the momentum and positive vibe. Im a PlayStation fan but in my opinion they are doing a bad job at the moment.
 

Outrun

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Oct 30, 2017
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Well ERA and in the past the old site can be a savior or pain in the ass. I think a lot of buzz is created here (positive and negative) I think you would want to make your story as clear as possible so you have the momentum and positive vibe. Im a PlayStation fan but in my opinion they are doing a bad job at the moment.

I also feel like that could have done a much better job as a first reveal. In this regard, MS did a much better job.

First we saw the console in December 2019. Then we got drips of information like 12TF. Then 12TF RDNA2 etc... This was followed up with the Spec reveal. I am guessing that a deeper dive on the technical side will occur incrementally. Then we get to see the games.

For the PS5, I would have liked to see a demo of what that SSD could do. I would have liked to see the final design of the console also by now. I think that I could have waited for the technical details that Cerny gave (even if it was not directed to me, the consumer)
 

gundamkyoukai

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Oct 25, 2017
21,432
I don't agree that the differences will be barely noticeable. Xbox Series X has the advantage in GPU, CPU, RAM bandwidth and very possibly Ray Tracing performance. Playstation 5 has the advantage in SSD speed. I expect each console's advantages to be obvious to the naked eye.

Maybe to some but most people won't be able to tell.
You have people can't tell when games drop a few frames or res not native .
Like the CPU advantage is 100mhz which is really nothing when it comes to making a difference .
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
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Oct 26, 2017
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There's so much concern going on in here that Sony was not specific enough with their spec presentation that was clearly aimed at developers who, if they are in a position where they actually need the details, already have access to detailed spec sheets and/or dev kits.

I know it's hard to wait but the real, consumer focused reveal is still going to happen.
 

MrKlaw

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Oct 25, 2017
33,406
Lack of particular information does not mean that they dropped the ball.

They will release information when it suit them.

for a 'deep dive' into the technical architecture, I agree with Cyborg. They could have been specific on key features, and more explicit on use cases that would trigger throttling (and by how much). The must have that data so they could have reassured if needed.

Conversely for a deep dive, they spent a lot of time talking about quite high level things. The SSD overview seemed almost consumer facing in some aspects of it.

It was an oddly paced presentation and an odd mix of high and low level detail
 

Delusibeta

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Oct 26, 2017
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I don't know if you're close to a release yet, they might not announce prices soon, especially with the current pandemic.
There's an argument to be made whether they might chose similar prices as before, selling at a loss, or also choose to raise prices a bit. It's probably more complex to guess prices, whoever announces it first sets the bar for the competition though.
  • If Sony announces a price of X, MS will announces theirs at about X +100/150$,
  • and similarly, if MS announces a price of Y, Sony will announces Y -100/150$.
I'm actually beginning to suspect the PS5 might wind up being more expensive to build. The SSD will cost a mint vs XSX's relatively off-the-shelf solution, and ensuring the GPU can sustain 2.2+ Ghz is a potentially expensive endeavor (since they wouldn't be able to use GPUs that can't hit that mark within acceptable voltages). Even if my concerns about the GPU proves to be unfounded, the difference in cost between the two GPUs will be neutralized by the differences in cost between the two SSDs (especially considering how much extra stuff Sony is throwing into theirs).
 

Deleted member 22585

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I don't agree that the differences will be barely noticeable. Xbox Series X has the advantage in GPU, CPU, RAM bandwidth and very possibly Ray Tracing performance. Playstation 5 has the advantage in SSD speed. I expect each console's advantages to be obvious to the naked eye.

Why do you expect that though. The X has advantages and it will result in slightly better performance or quality (around 16% is not a lot). But I don't believe it will be obvious to the naked eye. I'm sure it will be noticable, but not hugely so.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
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Oct 26, 2017
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Why do you expect that though. The X has advantages and it will result in slightly better performance or quality (around 16% is not a lot). But I don't believe it will be obvious to the naked eye. I'm sure it will be noticable, but not hugely so.
Wasn't there a DF video where they mistook checkerboard 4K for native 4K because they weren't able to tell the difference?
I suspect the difference between the new consoles will be so nuanced, that you won't be able to tell with the naked eye.
 

MrKlaw

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Oct 25, 2017
33,406
so many variables.

You have close raw TFS; Differences in SSD speeds; VRS and mesh shaders will take time to adjust to with devs; RT will be a huge hit in overlall perforamnce unless carefully managed.

It'll be a complex mish-mash of results for a good while as devs get used to all the new tools and features available to them, and learn how best to leverage them efficiently.
 

Deleted member 22585

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Wasn't there a DF video where they mistook checkerboard 4K for native 4K because they weren't able to tell the difference?
I suspect the difference between the new consoles will be so nuanced, that you won't be able to tell with the naked eye.

It's a lot of buzz and drama over - most likely - very minor real life differences.

I think the most important factors will be RT performance and the real impact of the SSD speed difference. And those will be seen once the games are being shown, so we have to keep cool.
 

Alexandros

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Oct 26, 2017
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Why do you expect that though. The X has advantages and it will result in slightly better performance or quality (around 16% is not a lot). But I don't believe it will be obvious to the naked eye. I'm sure it will be noticable, but not hugely so.

Mainly because it is more powerful in every subsystem that has to do with performance directly, namely GPU, CPU and bandwidth.
 

Thera

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Feb 28, 2019
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whoever tries to downplay either side should be ignored
I think thread need to be separated and every time someone goes in X thread downplaying something by comparing to Y should be insta ban. I was really against it at the "speculation thread" time. But now, we have 1/3 of active thread beaing console wars.
ERA is really not in a good shape ATM, at all.
 

Alexandros

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Oct 26, 2017
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So the system that loads assets that are needed into ram isn't to do with performance?

I would consider it an image quality advantage since the uses we've heard described so far are about more detailed worlds, bigger draw distances and less pop-in. That said, we have to see the uses in practice since the SSD's benefits are not as straightforward to determine.
 

Lupercal

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Jan 9, 2018
1,028
The only differences will be a bit more bells and whistles and possibly native vs a high checkerboard.
But it isn't like we're back in a 720p vs 1080p situation.
 

Alexandros

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Oct 26, 2017
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There are other areas that PS5 excels at though. GPU speed and higher total ram speed. Less bottlenecks.

For the moment I am reluctant to buy into Cerny's pitch for the benefits of a smaller but higher-clocked GPU, especially when variable frequencies are in play. The steady bandwidth for all the available memory could indeed prove to be an advantage, especially because the jump in the amount of RAM was much smaller this time around.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
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Oct 26, 2017
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So the system that loads assets that are needed into ram isn't to do with performance?
At the rates we're talking about? Not really.

A theoretical example. Let's say a game that's running at a constant 60FPS needs to grab 1GB of assets to put into RAM for immediate use. Let's also absolutely no compression takes place, so it's the worst case scenario.

On the Series X, this process takes 25 frames, or 0.42 seconds. On PS5, the same scenario takes a touch under 11 frames, or 0.18 seconds. A difference of 14 frames, or 0.24 seconds

On PS4 and Xbox One, the above scenario takes 1229 frames, or 20.48 seconds.

Which really gets to the heart of the scenario. Yes, the transition to SSDs is a major change in how resources are gathered and will have a material effect to game design. However, the advantage of PS5's SSD will probably wind up being academic at best.
 

CrispyGamer

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I think thread need to be separated and every time someone goes in X thread downplaying something by comparing to Y should be insta ban. I was really against it at the "speculation thread" time. But now, we have 1/3 of active thread beaing console wars.
ERA is really not in a good shape ATM, at all.

Exactly and it's frustrating because im excited to see what both can do
 

Wowzors

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Oct 27, 2017
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So the relative difference between ps5 and Xbox series x is the difference between PS4 pro and Xbox One X. Strictly graphics cards wise, not comparing the processors.

That should be enough to show people that there will be a difference, there's no question. Xbox One X games push higher resolutions and better textures.
 

zombiejames

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Oct 25, 2017
12,064
So the relative difference between ps5 and Xbox series x is the difference between PS4 pro and Xbox One X. Strictly graphics cards wise, not comparing the processors.
No. The difference between the One X and Pro was something like 30% (just comparing TFLOPS). Between the XSX and PS5 it drops to around 15%.
 
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Gemüsepizza

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Oct 26, 2017
2,545
So the relative difference between ps5 and Xbox series x is the difference between PS4 pro and Xbox One X. Strictly graphics cards wise, not comparing the processors.

That should be enough to show people that there will be a difference, there's no question. Xbox One X games push higher resolutions and better textures.

Difference is smaller, 18% vs 42%
 

Elios83

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Oct 28, 2017
976
So the relative difference between ps5 and Xbox series x is the difference between PS4 pro and Xbox One X. Strictly graphics cards wise, not comparing the processors.

That should be enough to show people that there will be a difference, there's no question. Xbox One X games push higher resolutions and better textures.

Emm no Xbox one x and ps4 pro is close to 50% difference.
PS5 and Series X 15-20% with a much faster I/O in PS5.
 

Micerider

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Nov 11, 2017
1,193
At the rates we're talking about? Not really.

A theoretical example. Let's say a game that's running at a constant 60FPS needs to grab 1GB of assets to put into RAM for immediate use. Let's also absolutely no compression takes place, so it's the worst case scenario.

On the Series X, this process takes 25 frames, or 0.42 seconds. On PS5, the same scenario takes a touch under 11 frames, or 0.18 seconds. A difference of 14 frames, or 0.24 seconds

On PS4 and Xbox One, the above scenario takes 1229 frames, or 20.48 seconds.

Which really gets to the heart of the scenario. Yes, the transition to SSDs is a major change in how resources are gathered and will have a material effect to game design. However, the advantage of PS5's SSD will probably wind up being academic at best.

Why Academical? What does the GPU do during those 0.24 seconds? And what happens when it's 5GB? How do you ensure the same illusion of a seamless game with the same quality of assets? I like the way you present it, but I don't think you highlight how it would have to be counted in the game design when it happens. Granted, in both scenarios, we are light years ahead of what current gen can do.
 

disco_potato

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Nov 16, 2017
3,145
I don't care if he's a dev or not...he wrote this:



Now i want this. If the SSD from the PS5 allows this, i'm so in. Imagine that world, with a generational gap and even more freedom, bigger draw distance, etc. Jesus...the 1st party titles in this will be incredible!
He wrote that because devs stated previously they wanted to do that but we're limited by the tech they had. That post is a collection of various articles/tweets/posts with barely any original thought or any meaningful knowledge of the subject.
Nothing wrong with that and I doubt he means for people to treat it as some authoritative take as some have been doing. It's basically one of us average Joe's, making a post and people making it more than it was intended to be.


I'm tempted to believe it is sufficiently sized too, but it's a vapor chamber with a single 130mm intake.
  • Cooling a 60-100W Zen2 CPU,
  • a big 52 CUs GPU @1825MHz,
  • 10 ICs of GDDR6.

The design of the case had me worried. The small intakes on the bottom, no direct airflow over the VC, as I assumed the top fan is exhaust. You're suggesting it's an intake?
 

SpectR0nn

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Jan 6, 2018
100
At the rates we're talking about? Not really.

A theoretical example. Let's say a game that's running at a constant 60FPS needs to grab 1GB of assets to put into RAM for immediate use. Let's also absolutely no compression takes place, so it's the worst case scenario.

On the Series X, this process takes 25 frames, or 0.42 seconds. On PS5, the same scenario takes a touch under 11 frames, or 0.18 seconds. A difference of 14 frames, or 0.24 seconds

On PS4 and Xbox One, the above scenario takes 1229 frames, or 20.48 seconds.

Which really gets to the heart of the scenario. Yes, the transition to SSDs is a major change in how resources are gathered and will have a material effect to game design. However, the advantage of PS5's SSD will probably wind up being academic at best.

That's really oversimplifying it though. Because normally there's still a lot of overhead involved to get the data from the SSD to the actual game, as Cerny also showed in his presentation. You lose a lot of the effective bandwith during that process. Sony claims to have mitigated this inherent overhead through the custom chip and surrounding architecture they've built for the SSD. In practice this could mean a much bigger difference in practice between the two machines than what your calculation shows currently.
 

Crayon

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Oct 26, 2017
15,580
I can't be mad at people not understanding it yet because I actually found it really hard to get my head around.