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Who's Going to Win South Carolina?

  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 585 39.2%
  • Bernie Sanders

    Votes: 853 57.2%
  • Elizabeth Warren

    Votes: 24 1.6%
  • Pete Buttigieg

    Votes: 7 0.5%
  • THE KLOBBERER

    Votes: 16 1.1%
  • Tom Steyer

    Votes: 6 0.4%

  • Total voters
    1,491
  • Poll closed .
Status
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xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
"Shut up because I don't like your opinion".

Good post.

Baiting people into relitigating the 2016 Primary is silly. The DNC never took any action to directly hinder Sanders campaign, and 4 million voters chose Clinton. This is a thread for the 2020 Primary, dredging up old grievances helps nobody.

Agreed.

Another thing to remember is that there is an ideological difference as well. Warren is a liberal. Bernie is a socialist. There policies may seem similar, but the direction and trend they would normalize would be vastly difference- Warren's direction would be one where capitalism only needs to be fixed and regulated, whereas Bernie's would be one where capitalism is eventually replaced.

For those of us who call ourselves socialists and want to one day live in a world where the workers own the means of production, or to at least pave the way for that kind of world for our children, Bernie is the guy.

Sanders isn't a Socialist though...
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
5,231
Most of what Bernie wants already existed or was on the way to existing before the Powell memo in '71 that paved the way for big money in politics, Citizens United, and culminated in Reagan. It's really not that radical or crazy.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
That's... what we want, though, and there's no point in hiding it. I don't think there's some inevitability that says America will always be a capitalistic country. In fact, capitalism is very clearly not working. The US is becoming a nation of extreme wealth inequality, where people die from exposure, hunger, and lack of health care. And the constant growth pushed by our system of free market capitalism is killing the planet itself. I'd argue that we have to at least socialize much of the economy immediately if we want to survive.

Bernie Sanders is just a stepping stone on the road to workers controlling the means of production. To ending private property, maybe. It's going to be a long struggle for sure but that's the end goal.
oh man, good luck I guess, but be prepared to be EXTREMELY disappointed in 2022 when the country decides to shift back to the center.


fact is: the middle class wants to be upper middle class, the upper middle class wants to stay that way, the rich think they're wealthy, and the wealthy are laughing their assess of at anyones optimism in thinking they can so overtly seize the means from them.
It's not gonna happen during one election, and it would've been the more tactful approach to install a regulatory wonk like Warren instead of an idealistic career politician like Bernie to achieve your lofty desires.

just reminder that bernie will be 83 years old and running for a second term..
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,225
Both Sanders and Warren would have a Social Democrat platform in theory, but Sanders' is further left and more emphasized on empowering workers. This could help facilitate the conditions necessary to transition to a genuinely socialist society. Hopefully we get more politicians like AOC who can help push things further left. Bernie is the start, not the end.

I think capitalism's perpetual momentum is no more inevitable than any other ideology or system.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
I think y'all underestimate how happy the middle and upper middle classes are.
they will prefer to align with the wealthy than with the poor.
 

Azzanadra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,807
Canada
Sanders isn't a Socialist though...

From what I have read of Bernie's history, he is, in his heart of hearts, a socialist. His social democratic policies are as far as the US is willing to stomach. But that is ultimately the point of democratic socialism, to eventually achieve socialism through democratic means.

My point isn't that Bernie will achieve socialism in 4/8 years. The road is long and hard, and Lenin once said "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years." (hence his support for vanguardism but that's a whole different story). A Sanders presidency would be a small, but necessary and important step towards socialism, even if socialism itself will elude us for many years.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
From what I have read of Bernie's history, he is, in his heart of hearts, a socialist. His social democratic policies are as far as the US is willing to stomach. But that is ultimately the point of democratic socialism, to eventually achieve socialism through democratic means.

My point isn't that Bernie will achieve socialism in 4/8 years. The road is long and hard, and Lenin once said "If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years." (hence his support for vanguardism but that's a whole different story). A Sanders presidency would be a small, but necessary and important step towards socialism, even if socialism itself will elude us for many years.

So we shouldn't listen to what he's saying with his mouth, but instead what he believes in his heart?
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
So you're saying you believe he has a public position and a private position?

Perhaps? But when his public positions help ease the suffering here and abroad which we face under capitalism, I can live with those, for now. As opposed to some liberal politicians, who are educated and intelligent enough to see the problems, but who are too concerned about amassing personal wealth and power to actually address material conditions.

oh man, good luck I guess, but be prepared to be EXTREMELY disappointed in 2022 when the country decides to shift back to the center.


fact is: the middle class wants to be upper middle class, the upper middle class wants to stay that way, the rich think they're wealthy, and the wealthy are laughing their assess of at anyones optimism in thinking they can so overtly seize the means from them.
It's not gonna happen during one election, and it would've been the more tactful approach to install a regulatory wonk like Warren instead of an idealistic career politician like Bernie to achieve your lofty desires.

just reminder that bernie will be 83 years old and running for a second term..

Bernie isn't the end goal, like I said, just an important step on the road of ending capitalism. I would hope that, by 2024, we have a successor to Bernie as the face of American leftism. It's a shame that AOC won't quite be old enough to be president...
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
I think y'all underestimate how happy the middle and upper middle classes are.
they will prefer to align with the wealthy than with the poor.

The happiness of the middle and upper middle classes has nothing to do with the struggles of literally everyone else, regardless of if they are able to ignore said struggles in an easier fashion. Then again, their happiness is built upon the struggles of the working class in the first place.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
The happiness of the middle and upper middle classes has nothing to do with the struggles of literally everyone else, regardless of if they are able to ignore said struggles in an easier fashion. Then again, their happiness is built upon the struggles of the working class in the first place.
I mean sure, yea, but how are y'all die har socialists actually gonna change anything?
the options are:
-slowly and with concessions
-quckly and with death

that's it.

Ifeel like the movement is way tooo much "all or nothing".

reminder that just cause bernie is popular and theres like 4 congresswoman with similar ideas as his, that doesn't refute the fact that 98percent of congress doesn't alighn themselves with all that.

again, I just wish y'all could sprinkle some realism on top of your idealism salads.
 

AkimboChainz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
328
I'm expecting some sort of result where 2-3 candidates claim victory
Iowa caucus winning chances: Sanders: 2 in 5 (41%) Biden: 1 in 3 (32%) Buttigieg: 1 in 7 (14%) Warren: 1 in 10 (10%) Klobuchar: 1 in 40 (2%) https://t.co/Q2hBgpjs39
 

3bdelilah

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,615
It's widely believed that Sanders is a socialist who is running on democratic socialist policy as the furthest left position that can succeed in America today.

Not wildly believed, but this is what I believe as well.

The guy is obviously a socialist, the guy has many times opted for worker ownership of corporations and other means of production, but he'd be eaten alive in America if he actually ran on that platform. That would be political suicide. The best thing he could've done, and which is what he did splendidly, is running as a "democratic socialist" with policies that are actually social democrat. He removed a lot of the stigma on the word "socialist", after decades of Red Scare and other socialist propaganda.

Which is both a good thing and a bad thing, because now many people in the US equate socialism with social democracy (even though they're both wildly different to each other), but a good thing that at least now many people don't equate socialism with Soviet or PRC authoritarianism and bureaucracy. The trick now is to move further left one little step at a time, and basically let "democratic socialism"/social democracy gradually evolve into proper (democratic) socialism that involves workers owning the means of production.

But that last part is wishful thinking on my part. 🤓
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I think y'all underestimate how happy the middle and upper middle classes are.
they will prefer to align with the wealthy than with the poor.
Normally I would agree but the healthcare issues are increasingly making this favoritism tenuous.


What you say matters now but don't think that's going to hold up even in the next 3 years.


The happiness of the middle and upper middle classes has nothing to do with the struggles of literally everyone else, regardless of if they are able to ignore said struggles in an easier fashion. Then again, their happiness is built upon the struggles of the working class in the first place.


This is ridiculous. Middle class and even upper middle class aren't walking over people to get where they need to be. They've worked and got lucky in certain cases to get where they are. In the case of upper middle class they aren't as a group doing it to degree that matters much compared to multimillionaires.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
Normally I would agree but the healthcare issues are increasingly making this favoritism tenuous.


What you say matters now but don't think that's going to hold up even in the next 3 years.
Bernies not the only politician that could fix healthcare tho.
Reality is, only like 48 percent of people support completely federalized healthcare.

It's of tHe spots in which i disagree with warren/sanders on.
i think the best route would've been: regulate the industries better and have a public option.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
User Banned (1 week): Ignoring the staff post with regards to hostility and metacommentary
I mean sure, yea, but how are y'all die har socialists actually gonna change anything?
the options are:
-slowly and with concessions
-quckly and with death

that's it.

Ifeel like the movement is way tooo much "all or nothing".

reminder that just cause bernie is popular and theres like 4 congresswoman with similar ideas as his, that doesn't refute the fact that 98percent of congress doesn't alighn themselves with all that.

again, I just wish y'all could sprinkle some realism on top of your idealism salads.

Your "realism" is concern trolling and disingenuous, and despite your reductionist attitude, I hope that you are able to benefit from a future where healthcare is a human right, workers aren't subject to the whims of CEOs and shareholders, and student loan debt has been forgiven. There is a reason Sanders has the most individual contributions or donations by a longshot.

I suppose a first step to changing anything is to, idk, try for it or something, as opposed to relying on "realistic" incrementalism while people are dying because they can't pay their health insurance premiums.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,225
No that would've been with Warren.
bernie is fast track.

If Bernie is a fast track, then you're much more optimistic about his ability to affect change than socialists are. Bernie is our compromise candidate. I like Warren, I think she would make a good president, but as a socialist there is nothing she offers me that Bernie doesn't also offer, and that is why I am voting Bernie. If for some reason he isn't an option when Super Tuesday comes and I am up to vote, I will happily vote Warren. But my interests lie with Bernie and the movement of the workers.

I'll say it again: Bernie is the beginning, not the end.
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
I think y'all underestimate how happy the middle and upper middle classes are.
they will prefer to align with the wealthy than with the poor.
I'm not so sure. I think rising inequality is making things extremely competitive for the professional/managerial class and some are getting fed up with it.

See how much was spent in that college admission bribery case for instance as an example of new barriers to maintain your class position.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
Weird how people keep calling Bernie unrealistic when he's the one actually paving new ground and getting results. His grassroots movement is probably the most realistic and pragmatic way forward but some people don't want to accept it, yet the proof is in the pudding.
 

Exellus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,348
It's funny to me that some people would call Bernie "too left".

Like.....look man. There's the past and there's the future. If the past was backwards, and the future is forwards, then choose the forwards thinker.

Choose the opposite of what the bigots do.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Weird how people keep calling Bernie unrealistic when he's the one actually paving new ground and getting results. His grassroots movement is probably the most realistic and pragmatic way forward but some people don't want to accept it, yet the proof is in the pudding.

You're gonna get a lot more ear-plugging from Trump apologists as Bernie continues to top polls.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
Your "realism" is concern trolling and disingenuous, and despite your reductionist attitude, I hope that you are able to benefit from a future where healthcare is a human right, workers aren't subject to the whims of CEOs and shareholders, and student loan debt has been forgiven. There is a reason Sanders has the most individual contributions or donations by a longshot.

I suppose a first step to changing anything is to, idk, try for it or something, as opposed to relying on "realistic" incrementalism while people are dying because they can't pay their health insurance premiums.
Whats disingenuous about the fact that only like 10 percent of elected representatives in this country are in Bernie/Warren camp?
And then only like 10 percent of those are in the Bernie side of it.
The politics just hasn't caught up to the public yet, and that's the fault of political miscalculations, and reminder that the Bernie movement is only like 6 years old in the US.
meanwhile the conservative counterpart, tea party/freedom caucushas been laying the groundwork for years to elect someone like trump, and Congress was alreayd full of people like him.

YO. I don't disagree with the fact that workers get the short end of the stick. Not even that, they make the sticks for other people and get splinters as payment,but the fact is that merely acknowledging that isn't some sort of new knowledge and changing it isn't as simple as electing Bernie.
to change America you need to install people IN government, not out of it. And you can't fucking have The whole movement rely on a single politician.
 

JesseEwiak

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,781
The happiness of the middle and upper middle classes has nothing to do with the struggles of literally everyone else, regardless of if they are able to ignore said struggles in an easier fashion. Then again, their happiness is built upon the struggles of the working class in the first place.

It's not even the happiness of the middle and upper middle classes.

The Federal Reserve (I know, evil neoliberals, but they want good data), have 75% of people believe their own personal financial situation is "doing okay" or "living comfortably" as opposed to 25% that say "just getting by" and "finding it difficult to get by."

Gallup's polling shows that people saying "economic issues" as the nation's most important problem is down to 10% - the lowest point since they started asking the question in 2000 - it's even dropped in half since the 2016 election when the numbers was at 21%. Sixty two percent of people are describing the economy as excellent or good, again compared to 25% in 2016.

The average American does not see the current economy as the hellscape this forum believes it is.
 

Blue Skies

Banned
Mar 27, 2019
9,224
It's funny to me that some people would call Bernie "too left".

Like.....look man. There's the past and there's the future. If the past was backwards, and the future is forwards, then choose the forwards thinker.

Choose the opposite of what the bigots do.
I didn't know Bernie was the only choice tho.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
Hottest of takes, it's actually better for Sanders' overall delegate strategy that Warren stays in the race as long as possible and keeps racking up delegate wins.

Sanders' clearest path to the nomination, IMO, is a Sanders-Warren team-up at a brokered convention. Warren dropping out doesn't automatically transfer all of her supporters to Camp Bernie, and even if it did, her exiting the race would be the cue for Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Bloomberg (etc.) to do the same, whose supporters would likely primarily benefit Biden in a way that Warren's wouldn't for Sanders. Sanders would probably benefit a little from Warren dropping out, but her supporters' second choices are pretty close to evenly mixed between the other candidates.

Just musing I guess. Also worth pointing out that Biden having the plurality lead in delegates and being overtaken by the #2 and 3 at a brokered convention would be utterly disastrous for party unity, as it would have been in 2016 if say, the superdelegates overwhelmingly decided to side with Sanders to deny Clinton the nomination. I would have to imagine in such an instance the superdelegates would swoop in and save Biden's candidacy, and likewise, if Sanders led in pledged delegates and was overruled by the supers to give us nominee Biden anyway (even if all's fair and legal per the DNC bylaws), that would of course be just as bad.

I'm also crazy and think Warren will win the Iowa caucus tonight. We shall see!
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,225
YO. I don't disagree with the fact that workers get the short end of the stick. Not even that, they make the sticks for other people and get splinters as payment,but the fact is that merely acknowledging that isn't some sort of new knowledge and changing it isn't as simple as electing Bernie.
to change America you need to install people IN government, not out of it. And you can't fucking have The whole movement rely on a single politician.

None of the socialists in this thread would say that. However, this is an election, and there can only be one winner.

Win or lose, the movement continues.
 

nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,131
No that would've been with Warren.
bernie is fast track.

Gradualism...a theory which is way out of fashion as an explanation of the evolution of species, still in fashion in some corners of theory of social change...You have a very basic grasp of how change actually happens, and how many elements often unacknowledged play a part in bringing about change. Warren isn't portraying herself as a gradualist anyway, she talks major structural change, although policy wise there are more significant differences in degree between her and Sanders than much of the media gives credit for. She's still pretty good, just not good enough.

Also, Warren has spent most of her career in Academia, where she wasn't exactly advancing most of the issues she is now campaigning on being progressive on. Not that I hold that against her, but calling up Sander's track record doesn't exactly make Warren come out better given how she is framing her position.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
It's not even the happiness of the middle and upper middle classes.

The Federal Reserve (I know, evil neoliberals, but they want good data), have 75% of people believe their own personal financial situation is "doing okay" or "living comfortably" as opposed to 25% that say "just getting by" and "finding it difficult to get by."

Gallup's polling shows that people saying "economic issues" as the nation's most important problem is down to 10% - the lowest point since they started asking the question in 2000 - it's even dropped in half since the 2016 election when the numbers was at 21%. Sixty two percent of people are describing the economy as excellent or good, again compared to 25% in 2016.

The average American does not see the current economy as the hellscape this forum believes it is.

It's easier to advocate for systematic change when things are in shambles by the way.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Huh?
Im saying she's the slow track, slow and steady wins the fucking race
And y'all want to risk the entire movement on the presidency of a 79 year old whose spent 30 years in government and just recently has started to move the party his way.
Oh my bad, I think I misread, I thought you were saying Warren is a fast track.

I don't think there are many Bernie supporters who expect him to accomplish all of his goals or in a short period of time. Even if he gets a fraction of his goals accomplished it's better than anything Joe fucking Biden wants to do. Warren is still my second choice, but Bernie is more ambitious. Even Bernie knows he's not getting everything done that he wants to, but it will be a nice start.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,225
What counts as a loss tho?

I'm speaking specifically in the context of whether Bernie wins or loses this primary, or the general.

Whether it's Bernie, Trump, Biden, Warren, or Jeb himself in the White House, the movement continues. There just happens to be a candidate most socialists believe would help push the needle.
 

PMS341

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt-account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,634
Nov 1, 2017
3,201
I'm very excited for Tom Steyer to leave my mailbox alone after tonight. Been getting 4-5 flyers a week from his campaign since, like, September. And all his commercials emphasize climate change and protecting the environment lol.
 
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