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Thorakai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,242
It's great that you are taking the time to diversify your game cast by adding characters of Latin descent, but please I ask you to stop inserting random Spanish words into their largely English dialogue if you aren't going to put in the work to try and get it to sound natural. Code-switching (switching between languages within a conversation) and Spanglish are most definitely things that happen in real life, but getting this to sound right requires way more research and work than just having the character drop random instances of words like amigo, hola, cabron, or loco in a sentence. It sticks out like a sore thumb when its done wrong and it just contributes to an othering of the character.

If you are writing a piece of dialogue and you find yourself adding Spanish words, please stop and think about whether the situation the character finds themselves in is conducive to or necessitates some code-switching. Here are some good questions to ask yourself:
  • Is my character a first, second, or third-generation immigrant? If they are a first generation immigrant how long have they been in the country? The longer you've been in a new country the more assimilated you are, the less likely you are to see code-switching.
  • Who is my character talking to? Do they understand Spanish at all? If they don't understand Spanish, does it really make sense for my character to code-switch?
  • What situation is my character finding themselves in, is it a peaceful conversation at a coffee shop or is all hell breaking loose? The latter situation is a much more justifiable reason for someone to slip into speaking Spanish when in a panic than the former (as long as you've established that the character recently immigrated or has not had much time to assimilate, of course).
  • What subject matter is being discussed? Simple topics like how was your day are less likely to have much code-switching vs conversations that are more technical where it might be easier for the character to communicate in their native tongue.
  • What types of Spanish words is my character sprinkling into the conversation? Is it just basic words like hola and si? Or are they dropping idioms or phrases that flow better into a conversation vs their English translation/counterpart?
Above all, are there any native Spanish speakers on your team or external to your team that you are running this dialogue through? If you aren't involving someone with a lived-experience with code-switching to check your work, then its best to just stick to English only. There are other ways to communicate heritage if you think that is essential to the character.

I'm going to post some recent examples below that prompted me to make this thread—I would love it if others can highlight other examples of what to avoid or even good examples to work towards.

NEO: The World Ends With You
Motoi #1
Motoi #2
Motoi #3

Valorant
Reyna

RedFall
Remi #1
Remi #2

Cyberpunk 2077
Jackie

Edit: I'm editing to add a note that some posters have pointed out that Motoi's specific use of Spanish might be purposeful as a means to characterize them as a type of show-off. I'm holding off on condemning the character itself until full release of the game, but keeping the links as an example of the type of Spanglish that seem to dominate media.
 
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Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
The doctor from Days Gone is the worst example of this 'cus he just repeats what he said in English.
 

rucury

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,386
Puerto Rico
But how am I supposed to understand that they have Latin descent if they don't have a spanish catchphrase!? Its so quirky!! Hahaha I agree with you OP, it comes across as really lazy and cringe. I speak Spanglish normally and looking at some examples you posted, it seems like the localizers have never really heard anyone speak Spanglish before...
 

P-Bo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 17, 2019
4,405
Co-signed, it's a lazy way to convey a character's ethnicity.
 

giancarlo123x

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,502
But as a peruvian this is how I speak my Spanish, I usually just switch between so this "issue" bother me. (I'll agree the NEO shit is bad, doesn't sound natural at all.)
 

Spazerbeam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,449
Florida
I honestly love it because it's exactly what my South American parents do. They even do the thing where they'll say if in Spanish, then English.
 

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Manny from TLoU2 sucked for more reasons than this, but it was definitely one of them.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,625
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TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,299
I honestly love it because it's exactly what my South American parents do. They even do the thing where they'll say if in Spanish, then English.


lol, my step mother does this all the time too. She is Peruvian

She will literally swear up and down a storm in spanish and then just repeat it in english
 

Deleted member 85465

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 12, 2020
976
This topic is really complicated, there are some characters that I have found to do this badly, but a friend that worked on customer service, that had a mainly latino customer base, told me that he has heard people talk like those characters I found to do it badly.

Since it can be a regional thing too, its really hard to distinguish if its done badly sometimes, even when I am latino.
 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
Yeah, it's awful.

Truly shows the efforts are committee-driven, in an attempt to showcase the character as a checked box, not diversity.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,258
Peru
The doctor from Days Gone is the worst example of this 'cus he just repeats what he said in English.
Yeah, it was fucking terrible and didn't make sense at all. I speak Spanish so I understood him, but I don't think Deacon or whoever else cared much about his random Spanish in between sentences.
 

Skyscourge

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 7, 2020
1,857
I agree that it sounds weird sometimes, but I feel you're trying to set some sort of standard when there clearly is none. I mix my native language (chinese) with english all the time, and there is almost no consistency to it, just whatever comes to mind first.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,402
This it's actually a thing?
Yes. Some of my friends will start a conversation in English and then transition straight into Spanish for a few sentences or so and then drop back into English. Or they'll do the reverse where the conversation is entirely in Spanish and then they'll slip into English.

Unless it's a legit phrase -- Dios mio, a string of profanity, etc -- no one just peppers in Spanish while they're talking to people who they know either don't know Spanish or don't know them/contextual words and clues.
 

Sephiroth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,155
It's like the writers used to fansub anime.


keikaku.jpg
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
Recently played Miles Morales which walked a weird line doing this. A small amount of household convos had full lines in spanish, which seemed really natural, but there was a lot of [single common word in spanish] which seemed unnatural to me.
 

Artorias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,107
Completely agreed OP. It's so damn annoying and I hate how it's one of the few ways movies/games (heck, even books) are able to portray a Spanish character's ethnicity. Honestly, though, I think this is a byproduct of how Hollywood has done such a poor job of it over the years. Seems to have rubbed off on other artistic mediums.

It wouldn't be so annoying if we had more good examples of complicated Hispanic characters that didn't have to rely on this trope.

Incredibly lazy writing overall and I always think less of any form of media that has it in such an unnatural way (which is usually the case, codeswitching is rarely done well).
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,118
Cornfields
I've never seen anyone whether that be family, friends, or school speak like that. It's a stupid stereotype.
 

NookSports

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,236
Unless it's a legit phrase -- Dios mio, a string of profanity, etc -- no one just peppers in Spanish while they're talking to people who they know either don't know Spanish or don't know them/contextual words and clues.
This. And if you *do* use a random word in Spanish, it's because you're trying to find the right english word and you can't. Not just a random verbal tick or flair
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,553
"Have a marvelous mañana"

""Shall we commence today's conferencia?"

"I sure do, mi amigo."

Urgh
 

vicarino

Member
Aug 31, 2019
181
Can't agree more with the point exposed and his propositions. There are too many games doing this wrong, even self-proclaimed inclusive indie games have their latinos spaming "loco" and "amigo" without any reason. Sounds as stupid as pokemon repearing their own names :S

The new Farcry is going to do that sooo bad that other devs will strart trying to avoid it.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,402
This. And if you *do* use a random word in Spanish, it's because you're trying to find the right english word and you can't. Not just a random verbal tick or flair
Likewise for the reverse.

Whole ass sentence in Spanish, silence, and then a word comes out in English for the same reason. Usually the person who they're talking to knows enough English as well to know the word so they'll understand. And then they'll remind the person who had the brain fart what the word was, both sides will laugh, and the conversation will continue.
 

Rob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,097
SATX
I think it's the words being said. I remember Miles' mom said it in the Miles Morales game, but I really appreciated it in that game. It felt authentic. But for some reason other games that do it feel like they are trying too hard.
 

Deleted member 17388

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,994
It wouldn't be so annoying if we had more good examples of good Hispanic characters that didn't have to rely on this trope.
Life is Strange 2 had a fantastic use (or lack thereof) of this trope. Sean used it sparingly, mostly in the intimate space with his brother, as something passed down from his Mexican father. Then Daniel, the youngest one, never used a mix.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,743
It is common in bilingual people. I have a Brazilian friend who does that all the time.
 

Shemhazai

Member
Aug 13, 2020
6,605
Not Spanish, but my nan (Italian) did this all the time. She was the only Italian speaker in the family though so no one ever understood what she'd said when she slipped. The whole bilingual thing is a bit more complicated than just code switching in my experience.
 

R2RD

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 6, 2018
2,797
But as a peruvian this is how I speak my Spanish, I usually just switch between so this "issue" bother me. (I'll agree the NEO shit is bad, doesn't sound natural at all.)
do you do it with people that dont speak spanish?

Cause that's my issue with it. Between Latinos makes sense but why would I be speaking Spanglish with someone that only knows english?
 

PanzerKraken

Member
Nov 1, 2017
15,077
Being Puerto Rican in the US with most of my family here now too, I don't see this as a problem as this is how they all speak. We constantly toss in some spanish words or slang in when speaking english.

do you do it with people that dont speak spanish?

Cause that's my issue with it. Between Latinos makes sense but why would I be speaking Spanglish with someone that only knows english?

Cause it's habit
 

Artorias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,107
Yeah, but just because it's common doesn't mean games do it naturally or well. 99 percent of the time it comes off as something completely artificial and written by a white guy with no real concept of how Hispanic families interact with one another or codeswitch with friends/strangers (it's a lot less common with strangers, and makes no sense the majority of the time).
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,180
Is moronic since regularly latinos add english words to their spanish and not the other way around
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,792
Mexico City
I'm going to start to write that way en línea.

I think the point OP makes about considering who the character is talking to is correct. This may be a thing some bilingual people really do when speaking to other bilingual people, but if you're speaking to someone who only understands English why would you substitute in a Spanish word they may or may not know? Personally I noticed the other day that when I'm speaking in English to someone who speaks both, I sometimes switch between entire sentences in one language or the other, or for uncommon words I can't remember, but not for individual everyday words like in the examples. Those sound unnatural to me.
 

SunBroDave

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,332
If there are people in this very thread saying that they do/know people who do this exact thing, what's the issue with it? Why should writers stop doing it?
 

Artorias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,107
If there are people in this very thread saying that they do/know people who do this exact thing, what's the issue with it? Why should writers stop doing it?

Please read the entire post instead of skimming through it and coming in with this.

OP is not saying writers should stop doing it all together, but perhaps some more research and care should be done when applying codeswitching. It doesn't make any sense the majority of the time, and that's what we take issue with. It should feel organic, not forced, but it's usually done as a lazy way of expressing a character's culture.

If that's the only way these writers can display the ethnicity of a Hispanic character, then yes, it's better if they don't include it at all. I have a feeling in many of these cases, it's done by an ignorant white person with no real understanding of our culture.
 

MaxAugust

Member
Jan 28, 2018
3,191
FYI, the TWEWY example doesn't really count. In the trailer and character profiles you can see that dude and his crew's gimick is inserting random nonsense in other languages into their dialogue. It is supposed to make them come off as stupid and superficial. Like how Minamimoto shouts math stuff and the dude from the first game always talked in goofy cooking metaphors.

I do dislike the random Spanish insert words as a trope unless the person is talking to someone who would actually understand. Although, there are plenty of contexts and settings where it still works fine. I don't like that it is sometimes used to emphasize "otherness".
 
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giancarlo123x

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,502
do you do it with people that dont speak spanish?

Cause that's my issue with it. Between Latinos makes sense but why would I be speaking Spanglish with someone that only knows english?
Im the only one that speaks Spanish in my close friend circle and it happens at times. I just don't think about it. Lol
 

jdmc13

Member
Mar 14, 2019
2,949
There's a whole wiki page about this. Always kinda thought it was something white writers made up.
 

Deleted member 30544

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 3, 2017
5,215
I co-sign this, but there are examples when is done tastefully at least, like in Coco (Unless someone desagrees, i don't speak for all Mexicans)

Other than that, it's just lazy.

Also i have Mexican-American people who does it all the time (English with random Spanish words), i'm not sure if this is also considered Spanglish.

Spanglish (Mostly Spanish , with random English words or sentences) is also a thing, at least in Mexico.
 

BeatnikGunso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
620
Yeah I don't know like I'm a black guy but work with a lot of Hispanic people, and they do that tossing in spanish with english words all the time, and not just to people who speak spanish but me as well and I speak no spanish
 

jstevenson

Developer at Insomniac Games
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,043
Burbank CA
I think it's the words being said. I remember Miles' mom said it in the Miles Morales game, but I really appreciated it in that game. It felt authentic. But for some reason other games that do it feel like they are trying too hard.

The team put a lot of effort and research into making those lines as authentic as possible.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,636
"Have a marvelous mañana"

""Shall we commence today's conferencia?"

"I sure do, mi amigo."

Urgh
"After analyzing the data, otra vez of course, we've managed to develop the vaccine."
"If you mess up your reload, you might find yourself yelling no mames."