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Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,535
California
I think Theswweet had some insights in how PC was doing compared to PS in Japan a couple months ago, hope he doesn't mind me tagging him.

PC gaming is, at this point, likely bigger than PlayStation in Japan - at least since 2022.

TL;DR - combined console hardware/software sales in Japan was around 4.1 billion dollars. PC was 1.3 billion. Considering the wide, wide discrepancy between Switch and PS5, reading between the lines PC gaming likely has eclipsed PlayStation in Japan.
 

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Nov 7, 2019
11,115
Germany
If you had told me during the Gamecute era that Luigi's Mansion would compete head to head with FF7 in sales I would have bet my house against that.

SE really need to step it up. I think what I want from them is more small budget games like Little Goody Two Shoes or Paranorma Sight.


View: https://x.com/ZhugeEX/status/1223061740398743553


"se needs to step it up"

"i want more small budget games from them"

Well which is it? For the core consumers behind buying SE games, going big seems like the smarter business move. I also dunno what they need to step up? The quality is there.
 

thetrin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,873
Atlanta, GA
This is not super surprising. Direct sequels that require knowledge of the prior entry statistically tend to have deprecation in sales. Look at viewer numbers for TV shows with ongoing plots. Season over season they lose viewers. Same with comics.

Half the sales is unfortunate, and the flagging sales in Japan due to PS5 exclusivity didn't help, but as long as it isn't killing S-E, I call it "cost of the vision" and quietly wait for part 3.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,987
Actually I think they just need to make a FF where it feels like going on a journey with your party members. I couldn't stomach FF15 yet, so maybe that would fit. But in general FF13 and FF7R have these you are on a mission feeling, where it always is like "ok we need to go there to kill X". And 16 was just way too focused on clive and we didn't get anything from our "party members". I do think a FF game where it is like Frieren would fit much better. Where it is mostly like going chilling around and then as the story unfolds you get an actual goal and an actual enemy. I think Bravely default had something like this?
So you mean where the heroes travel to places that more or less have isolated stories that eventually unfold into a main conflict and goal?
 

Fer

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,061
"se needs to step it up"

"i want more small budget games from them"

Well which is it? For the core consumers behind buying SE games, going big seems like the smarter business move. I also dunno what they need to step up? The quality is there.
I don't want big budget "safe" things. I want interesting ideas, that's where they need to step it up if they want me to look at FF again.
I might not be the core consumer though, I rarely buy AAA games these days.
 

PancakeFlip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,987
"se needs to step it up"

"i want more small budget games from them"

Well which is it? For the core consumers behind buying SE games, going big seems like the smarter business move. I also dunno what they need to step up? The quality is there.
And aren't they doing things like the latter already? They released a nice Star Ocean 2 remake, they have a new Mana game coming up in just a few months.
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,521
revenue is an entire different talk. you can have low sales and still have profit, but obviously that would mean your audience is dwindling which is far more dangerous for the long term future of your franchise
I hear you. I just feel like there must be some bigger play that nets them more money by going this route. Why would they be doing this strategy otherwise? Actual ineptitude?
 

kakteen

Member
Apr 9, 2024
218
So you mean where the heroes travel to places that more or less have isolated stories that eventually unfold into a main conflict and goal?
Yes, where you have sidequests, can sometimes control your party members and so on. I mean maybe even a initial goal would be ok. KH comes here to my mind. You start of in this island ( with this somehow dream like tutorial) and you need to find some ingredients to set out for a journey. Stuff happens and you find yourself in some sort of town and meet donald and goofy. You start this adventure and you can see that sora is not like that sort of connected to them. As you visit more and more worlds, you find out about the group of villains and the main goal with the real bad guy thickens more and more.

Bullseye post right in the first page of the thread

I totally agree here, I think there is a big western crowd for rpg / jrpg on pc. I mean dark souls only started to became really popular when it released on pc. Other jrpg's like Persona started to sell really well there.
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,679
Maybe it's okay if a game that comes in under-budget with a quicker turnaround publishing on a single SKU sells only a reasonable but still positive amount of money.
 

Gay Bowser

Member
Oct 30, 2017
17,908
PC gaming is, at this point, likely bigger than PlayStation in Japan - at least since 2022.

TL;DR - combined console hardware/software sales in Japan was around 4.1 billion dollars. PC was 1.3 billion. Considering the wide, wide discrepancy between Switch and PS5, reading between the lines PC gaming likely has eclipsed PlayStation in Japan.
Right.

If you're making a non-mobile game and you want it to be successful in Japan, the smart money is putting it on Switch. If you're not doing that for whatever reason, you really need to be doing at least PS+PC. And it's probably best if you release it on PS4, too.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,072
FFXVI is from the team behind FFXIV with 10+ years of PC game dev experience.

Of course it's more work but this is not like Capcom and the MH team delaying the PC version because it was their first time making a PC SKU.

www.gameinformer.com

Why Final Fantasy 16 Is A PlayStation 5 Exclusive

We spoke with producer Naoki Yoshida about why FFXVI is a PS5 exclusive game.

"That said, from a developer and programmer perspective, limiting development to one system makes it not only easier on us but allows us the ability to optimize it," he continues. "And that allows us the ability to maximize performance for that one system because we're only concentrating on that one system."

On top of that, Yoshida says the team gets a lot of help from the first party – PlayStation in this instance – and its developers and programmers who help CBUIII maximize a game's performance.

"It allows us to create the game that we want to create [and] it makes it easier for us to do that."

Like, experience doesn't change reality, there's an undeniable resource benefit to working with a single platform.

I've said many times that I do think FF needs to be multiplatform now, but that doesn't change my comment you responded to, FFXVI would not have been released at the same time as it is if they had to develop for PC alongside it.
 
Word of mouth and YouTubers will hopefully drive sales for the game. So many people think it's one of their favorite game ever made, it feels like it's more than 50% of the playerbase even and so many of the even calls it the best game ever made.

It is the most impressive game out right now and it's not really close.
 
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Son of Sparda

"This guy are sick" says The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,943
Platform exclusivity is definitely hurting FF in the grand scheme of things, there is no question there.

But on top of that, FF is just a very messy franchise to figure out from outside if you are not part of the fanbase already.

In terms of gameplay and structure there is no clear identity. Any one FF game could be anything in terms of how it plays and how the game is presented to you, which is fully against how you'd attract and build a mainstream audience for your brand. If your average Joe has no idea what the next game is gonna play like or how its core design will be (will it have different playable characters? Will it be OW? Will it be linear? Will it be action? Is it a hybrid? etc) they are not gonna care about your franchise.

But that's assuming that said average Joe has even been able to get into the franchise in some way. Even if someone has heard about FF7 remake projects and is curious about it, this is still a shit ton of fluff that would confuse the hell out of them if they don't have their finger on the pulse.
FFVIIRemake.png
crisiscoreffviireunion.jpg
capsule_616x353.jpg
Boxart_for_Final_Fantasy_VII_Rebirth.png
main_ff7fs_20220114_5cc31706af283650388c09eeefec1c71_d38bb0d38e52e6007ab1d0ab9db6ce49-760x490.jpg
fancover.jpg


Your mainstream, 3-4 games a year player that maybe gets into stuff like Spider-Man, Horizon, etc as well, is probably not gonna parse through all of this to even see what's this FF7 game that they might've heard about somewhere.

That's one part of the problem, the other part is that even if you manage to get that kind of players into one of the entries, which is something that XV likely managed to achieve to some extent, when 6-7 years later your next game comes around and said player manages to catch it between all the cross media projects, spin-offs, remasters and smaller FF adjacent games, it might be completely different than what they were hoping for after playing XV and liking that game.

All in all, there are a lot of things that are working against FF building up a bigger audience base that it already has.

Edit: I just remembered I wanted to talk about Yakuza and Persona as well, since those were brought up in the thread. Those 2 are great examples of not only doing it right in terms of releasing day 1 on many platforms, but also not being too confusing in terms of what the player can expect from them. Persona has a bajillion spin-offs in different genres with different tones for different audiences, but the difference here compared to FF is that when you see just "Persona 3" or "Persona 5" on the cover, you know it's that long turn based JRPG with social sim elements and a calendar system.

Same can be said about Yakuza, to a lesser degree since they just went through a name change here, but still, you know what to expect from a Yakuza game in terms of structure and if you have Ichiban as the main character you know what's in store for you gameplay wise as well.

FF doesn't have that and that's hurting it, regardless of how people feel about each game doing everything from ground up.
 
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oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,680
I hear you. I just feel like there must be some bigger play that nets them more money by going this route. Why would they be doing this strategy otherwise? Actual ineptitude?
these deals were made years ago by entirely different people that are in the company now. gaming has changed a lot in since covid, imagine since 2014/15.

not that it exempts them from fault, but SE seems done and ready to drop these exclusivity deals behind

Word of mouth YouTubers will hopefully drive sales for the game. So many people think it's one of their favorite game ever made, it feels like it's more than 50% of the playerbase even and so many of the even calls it the best game ever made.

It is the most impressive game out right now and it's not really close.
we literally have Zhuge saying that tails do not look impressive. it's dropping off of pretty much every weekly top sales list, and the rest of the year is stacked with big titles like AC Red and Star Wars. that doesnt mean it's a flop but there's no reason to make up scenarios for it.

it's funny, because DD2 with far less positive reception is probably outselling Rebirth. goes to tell us a good grade does not mean good sales
 
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reksveks

Member
May 17, 2022
3,978
I hear you. I just feel like there must be some bigger play that nets them more money by going this route. Why would they be doing this strategy otherwise? Actual ineptitude?
Companies/people don't really make actively dumb decisions; it's typically by trying to predict something that is hard to predict. SE probably forecasted different numbers in terms of units sold and brand awareness. .

In terms of what is netting more money, remember that we are generally talking about two different time frames, one short-term where the deal makes sense and one long-term where people would argue that it doesn't. the question for SE is what is the priority.
 
these deals were made years ago by entirely different people that are in the company now. gaming has changed a lot in since covid, imagine since 2014/15.

not that it exempts them from fault, but SE seems done and ready to drop these exclusivity deals behind


we literally have Zhuge saying that tails do not look impressive. it's dropping off of pretty much every weekly top sales list, and the rest of the year is stacked with big titles like AC Red and Star Wars. that doesnt mean it's a flop but there's no reason to make up scenarios for it.

it's funny, because DD2 with far less positive reception is probably outselling Rebirth. goes to tell us a good grade does not mean good sales
Most people who bought it on release have just finished the game. Give it some time. But otherwise it will drive a lot of numbers when it wins goty because not a single game can beat this. It could have won any year.
 
Feb 19, 2023
2,004
Yeah 100% this. Its weird that some seem to think these games can''t succeed on Xbox.

Yeah, also hilarious that some of the same people thought the same for Yakuza and Persona.

Ah, I thought you had concrete information on the sales of the games on Xbox. For example we know Persona 4 Golden sold 1m copies on Steam alone. I'm not saying the games are doing well or poorly on Xbox, I am saying we don't have public information on sales splits. You can't sign a long term marketing deal with Sega and not have Persona 6 included, come on. It is a bit quirky that Persona 5: Strikers and 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim have not been ported to Xbox.

What do you feel the platform splits would be for the first 1m copies sold/shipped of Like A Dragon: Infinite Wealth and Persona 3 Reload? Sega have given that PR.

I'd rather take tangible data like charts over feelings like the person I was quoting. Besides, the point is that SE is purposely hamstringing the growth of their IP which is ironic considering the state of other Japanese publishers who are absolutely booming with growth and success as of late. It's a product of their own doing.



Indeed. I feel bad for Mat and Zhuge everything they give out this information because I know the inevitable is coming.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
10,311
Spain
This isn't really surprising to me. A direct sequel to a game that came out in an older platform is bound to sell less no matter what. And there were a lot of big game releases around it. Exclusivity probably is a factor too, although not the main one.
 

reksveks

Member
May 17, 2022
3,978
Most people who bought it on release have just finished the game. Give it some time. But otherwise it will drive a lot of numbers when it wins goty because not a single game can beat this. It would have won any year.

In terms of legs,

nichebarrier.com

Final Fantasy XVI - nichebarrier.com

Final Fantasy XVI (PS5) by Square Enix. Fact sheet, weekly sales in Japan and similar games.

Its about 90k behind ffxvi for physical copies and its catching up very very slowly (~300 last week).

I don't think its going to be something wild for a while.
 

oty

Member
Feb 28, 2023
4,680
Most people who bought it on release have just finished the game. Give it some time. But otherwise it will drive a lot of numbers when it wins goty because not a single game can beat this. It could have won any year.
what? there's literally zero data to prove any of that. i would wager there's literally zero chance that Rebirth could have won against BG3 or Elden Ring, just because of the sheer zeitgeist that those two launches had on the gaming world, which Rebirth barely got a fraction of
 
what? there's literally zero data to prove any of that. i would wager there's literally zero chance that Rebirth could have won against BG3 or Elden Ring, just because of the sheer zeitgeist that those two launches had on the gaming world, which Rebirth barely got a fraction of
The data is player response. It's the second highest rated game on metacritics in terms of Critics/User Reviews (on games who came out since the site released) after Witcher 3 and that with soo much varaity in comparison to the other games in the top who all plays a lot more safe.

Witcher 3 is litterly just a fantastic RPG and nothing more. People buy it for that experience and it makes that thing fantastic. Rebirth does everything Witcher 3 does so much better but a lot of people don't expect a lot of minigames in Rebirth and the same with many open world lovers don't like verticality and the puzzle parts of Gongaga and Cosmo Canyon. And the same with a few who don't like the ending.

It also has 4.75 on Playstation and 4.6 on Amazon.com. It's really loved even with a game that is for the ones with broad gaming taste and not small and focused.
 

LumberPanda

Banned
Feb 3, 2019
6,797
You're not buying Rebirth if you haven't beaten Remake, which according to psnprofiles is estimated ~50%. Idk how accurate to the tee psnprofiles is, but margin of error can't be too huge.

It lines up with Zhuge's number too.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,097
The data is player response. It's the second highest rated game on metacritics in terms of Critics/User Reviews (on games who came out since the site released) after Witcher 3 and that with soo much varaity in comparison to the other games in the top who all plays a lot more safe.

Witcher 3 is litterly just a fantastic RPG and nothing more. People buy it for that experience and it makes that thing fantastic. Rebirth does everything Witcher 3 does so much better but a lot of people don't expect a lot of minigames in Rebirth and the same with many open world lovers don't like verticality and the puzzle parts of Gongaga and Cosmo Canyon. And the same with a few who don't like the ending.

It also has 4.75 on Playstation and 4.6 on Amazon.com. It's really loved even with a game that is for the ones with broad gaming taste and not small and focused.

TW3 has sold over 50 million copies. You can combine the last 5 or 6 FF releases and not hit that figure.
 

reksveks

Member
May 17, 2022
3,978
The data is player response. It's the second highest rated game on metacritics in terms of Critics/User Reviews (on games who came out since the site released) after Witcher 3 and that with soo much varaity in comparison to the other games in the top who all plays a lot more safe.

Witcher 3 is litterly just a fantastic RPG and nothing more. People buy it for that experience and it makes that thing fantastic. Rebirth does everything Witcher 3 does so much better but a lot of people don't expect a lot of minigames in Rebirth and the same with many open world lovers don't like verticality and the puzzle parts of Gongaga and Cosmo Canyon. And the same with a few who don't like the ending.

It also has 4.75 on Playstation and 4.6 on Amazon.com. It's really loved even with a game that is for the ones with broad gaming taste and not small and focused.
The data I suspect that they are talking about is the relations to 'legs' of the sales and yeah, Witcher is a bad comparison.

I also suspect the correlation between user reviews and sales is probably weaker than we hope.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,072
it's funny, because DD2 with far less positive reception is probably outselling Rebirth. goes to tell us a good grade does not mean good sales

That's kind of the problem with aggregate sites, DD2 has a lower score than Rebirth, yeah, but that's because of just a handful of lower scores, while the majority of reviews are actually on par with Rebirth and many have said DD2 is their current GotY.

The reality is even with 100+ reviews, it's just a tiny sample size of potential players, there's always gonna be some variability and no one should use it to predict popular reception.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
14,991
You're not buying Rebirth if you haven't beaten Remake, which according to psnprofiles is estimated ~50%. Idk how accurate to the tee psnprofiles is, but margin of error can't be too huge.

It lines up with Zhuge's number too.
They should have access to the public api, which puts the Chapter 18 trophy at 37.2%, while 24.8% of people completed Intermission.
 
TW3 has sold over 50 million copies. You can combine the last 5 or 6 FF releases and not hit that figure.
Yeah that's sick. I also love the game, specially after the ps5 update. But really it doesn't do a single thing better than Rebirth. But I can see the appeal of Witcher 3 is like a GTA game and Skyrim, it's mainstream and fits so many kinds of players.

Rebirth will never be that kind of game. It fits the ones with a broad taste in gameplay, dark/goofy moments and you have to follow the story and think about it to really enjoy it fully. So many people just play and don't care and also most people have really small taste in games, not like me who likes every genre of games, movies, music and even almost all food.
 
That's kind of the problem with aggregate sites, DD2 has a lower score than Rebirth, yeah, but that's because of just a handful of lower scores, while the majority of reviews are actually on par with Rebirth and many have said DD2 is their current GotY.

The reality is even with 100+ reviews, it's just a tiny sample size of potential players, there's always gonna be some variability and no one should use it to predict popular reception.
Yeah DS2 has the appeal of the same mainstream audience as Witcher 3 and Skyrim which Rebirth doesn't have.
 

VeePs

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,433
You're not buying Rebirth if you haven't beaten Remake, which according to psnprofiles is estimated ~50%. Idk how accurate to the tee psnprofiles is, but margin of error can't be too huge.

Eh. I bought Rebirth without beating Remake. I just didn't have the time to finish Remake.

You can easily look up Remakes story on Youtube.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,559
This isn't really surprising to me. A direct sequel to a game that came out in an older platform is bound to sell less no matter what. And there were a lot of big game releases around it. Exclusivity probably is a factor too, although not the main one.


It's not necessarily true though.
The Witcher 2 sold better than 1 and 3 sold better than 2.
Mass Effect 3 sold better than 2 and 1.

There are times when a sequel has a breakthrough moment, especially when it's a bigger sequel expanding on the first game.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,284
these deals were made years ago by entirely different people that are in the company now. gaming has changed a lot in since covid, imagine since 2014/15.

not that it exempts them from fault, but SE seems done and ready to drop these exclusivity deals behind


we literally have Zhuge saying that tails do not look impressive. it's dropping off of pretty much every weekly top sales list, and the rest of the year is stacked with big titles like AC Red and Star Wars. that doesnt mean it's a flop but there's no reason to make up scenarios for it.

it's funny, because DD2 with far less positive reception is probably outselling Rebirth. goes to tell us a good grade does not mean good sales

we dont actually know if DD2 is outselling it overall, as DD2 also dropped like a rock, but even if it is, its definitely not outselling it on playstation, the only platform where FF7 is available. So it doesnt matter how well FF7 is reviewing or how many good things people say about it for xbox and PC players if they cannot buy it on their platforms.

as for how much reviews matter - probably not as much as they once did, but we'll never know - but its entirely plausible that the game would've had even less sales if it had weaker reviews.

Word of mouth still matters on the long run. It's not something you will see immediate effects of when the price tag is 80 euros and the availability is on a single platform though, especially. But when discounts start happening, when the game gets ported to PC, people will be more likely to pick up the game seeing the warm reception.

They should have access to the public api, which puts the Chapter 18 trophy at 37.2%, while 24.8% of people completed Intermission.

Keep in mind the game was given away on PS+ which kinda warps the perception (PS+ copies werent counted in sales).
It was the game with the 2nd highest completion rate on PS4 as of 2021 IIRC, only beaten by TLOU2.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,072
Remake/Rebirth/part 3 aren't really typical sequels though.

They're .Hack split episodes.

There's really not many examples of games doing this.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,559
Specifically when you mention breakthrough hit, ME3 and TW3 certainly fit that bill as significantly better than predecessors. Although I do not think selling around the same, or even somewhat better for a sequel is that out of the ordinary either.


Exactly. There are cases of sequels selling less but there are cases of sequels selling more too, especially for the bigger budget/scale ones.
 

Kazhar

Member
Feb 20, 2024
180
That's kind of the problem with aggregate sites, DD2 has a lower score than Rebirth, yeah, but that's because of just a handful of lower scores, while the majority of reviews are actually on par with Rebirth and many have said DD2 is their current GotY.

Are you sure about that?

I count 8 perfect scores for DD2 for 84 reviews, while Rebirth got over 40 for 145 reviews. The reviews are generally more positive even when you exclude the negative ones (which Rebirth got none).
User reviews are lightyears below for DD2 too.
 

Toth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,203
In terms of legs,

nichebarrier.com

Final Fantasy XVI - nichebarrier.com

Final Fantasy XVI (PS5) by Square Enix. Fact sheet, weekly sales in Japan and similar games.

Its about 90k behind ffxvi for physical copies and its catching up very very slowly (~300 last week).

I don't think its going to be something wild for a while.
No, it's not catching up . rebirth like 16 before it is hitting its cap.
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,375
Yeah that's sick. I also love the game, specially after the ps5 update. But really it doesn't do a single thing better than Rebirth. But I can see the appeal of Witcher 3 is like a GTA game and Skyrim, it's mainstream and fits so many kinds of players.

Rebirth will never be that kind of game. It fits the ones with a broad taste in gameplay, dark/goofy moments and you have to follow the story and think about it to really enjoy it fully. So many people just play and don't care and also most people have really small taste in games, not like me who likes every genre of games, movies, music and even almost all food.

TW3 does a lot of things better than Rebirth and it does have dark/goofy moments all over the place and you have to follow the story.

I'm 100% convinced people here don't play games or if they do they are absolutely and totaly clueless.
 
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