Cynicism surrounding games/game developers

[Apollo]

I've played the Medium.

I agree with the criticism it got. Without getting into spoilers, it was 100 % deserved.

That still doesn't justify the behavior I've been seeing.

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There's several sides to it though, yeah? There are very legitimate reasons to be critical and, yes, cynical about these things. But I also certainly agree with the idea that there are gross or just plain mean posts mixed in with legitimate concerns. And, speaking extremely generally (like, beyond any SH2/Bloober discourse), I do agree that people could stand to be more considerate.

But a thread like this doesn't really distinguish between chuds, jerks, and those who do have legitimate concerns (especially those drawn from the developer's previous releases). When you don't make that distinction, it appears like you're conflating them.

 

[Oreiller]

Cynists are always the most boring people around.

 

[reksveks]

Era has got a lot more negative over the years in general about everything, there were even haters of Astro Bot in the past few weeks.

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it does come across as there should be no 'haters' of astrobot?

 

[electroaffe]

ERA isn't that much different than other social media communities. It's just more hypocritical. Misogyny, racism, homophobia and toxicity get a pass as long as the community likes the game/studio. Others are not that fortunate.

 

[Patapuf]

I'm not a cynic but some scrutiny is certainly healthy.

One doesn't need to takes everything at face value.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

There's several sides to it though, yeah? There are very legitimate reasons to be critical and, yes, cynical about these things. But I also certainly agree with the idea that there are gross or just plain mean posts mixed in with legitimate concerns. And, speaking extremely generally (like, beyond any SH2/Bloober discourse), I do agree that people could stand to be more considerate.

But a thread like this doesn't really distinguish between chuds, jerks, and those who do have legitimate concerns (especially those drawn from the developer's previous releases). When you don't make that distinction, it appears like you're conflating them.

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That is partially why I used such an extreme example. That, if anything, is a clear distinction, no?

 

[Gavalanche]

This is always a complicated subject because where does the cynicism end and the hate start? How do you separate the troll and the one who wants to have a legitimate discussion? It's really really hard, basically impossible.

 

[Tea-Stance]

You'll get a lot of no votes but the discourse says otherwise.

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Yep. People either voting dishonestly or the cynical users not bothering to vote.

 

[beelulzebub]

Era has got a lot more negative over the years in general about everything, there were even haters of Astro Bot in the past few weeks.

The bloober stuff was just crazy for this game, especially once glowing previews came out and it somehow still continued.

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You know what? I wasn't crazy about Astro Bot. But I didn't really voice that opinion in the OT here until a while after the game had come out, because honestly I didn't want posts jumping down my throat about hating joy or whatever.

Lo and behold that Kotaku article dropped a day or two later, more or less echoing the same conclusions I came to (way more smugly tho), and it was a tirefire of a thread.

I dunno. This toxicity cuts both ways. Lots of gamers here take it as a personal affront if someone doesn't like something they like. Criticism ≠ cynicism, and it is NOT a value judgment on those who disagree with the criticism. If you love Astro Bot or any of Bloober's output, I'm happy for you even if we don't see eye to eye.

 

[FlanFlan]

It's just the most recent one. While I do use Bloober as an example, the point of that Angela picture wasn't only the sexist nature of it, it was the geneal "b*tch eating crackers" levels of "criticism" levied at the game.

There's a difference between healthy skepticism and straight up hate.

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The pic isnt serious criticism though it's culture war grifting, they try to do it to every game and if they can't find anything that gets traction online they'll make something up that does.
It's not their hate for the game it's a calculates attempt at poisoning all discourse.

 

[Gavalanche]

Yep. People either voting dishonestly or the cynical users not bothering to vote.

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Well I am both, which I guess most people are? Thats why I voted undecided.

If I think something is worth optimism, I am optimistic. If something is worth being cynical about, I am cynical. I don't think I have a default mode.

 

[ghostcrew]

I hate to be the cynical bastard here (especially in a thread about cynicism - the irony isn't lost on me) but this feels like a rehash of the post-Concord discussion about grave-dancing in which criticism, critical discussion, deep-dives (and, yes, even blanket disregard for studios' output in this case - or in the case of many other developers and publishers) is all fine for enthusiasts to do until it's not. Or until it's about a game that we are interested in.

 

[Nameless]

At times absolutely. But it wasn't PURE cynicism here. I didn't trust or believe in Bloober to handle this kind project of paper because they hadn't earned my trust with their past work - the "Silent Hilll-like" in their catalog being especially bad in the areas most relevant to Silent Hill. But I was still rooting for it to be good and planned to buy it regardless.

Two things can be true. Silent Hill 2 is, at worse, a Top 3 video game ever made IMO, so I'm rooting hard for the remake's critical & commercial success. At the same time, while I have enjoyed a couple of Bloober games, they've missed considerably more than they've hit and don't exactly inspire confidence tackling a more 'art house' work like SH2.

But whatever, it's a Day 1 purchase regardless of reviews so they already have my money.

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Anyway, like I said in another thread, I'd love to eat a generous helping of crow. Serve me up.

 

[Apollo]

That is partially why I used such an extreme example. That, if anything, is a clear distinction, no?

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Well, it's certainly a post that sucks, which is why the user who made it copped a ban for it. We all agree it's bad. There's not much else to say about it.

 

[JustTeaThankYou]

I read the page you linked (page three). Nothing on that page seems off really? I'll read one more page if there's a better example. The particular comment you quoted got that person banned, so it's obviously not representative of the thread.

Look I don't have a dog in this fight, I've neither played the medium nor silent hill 2 (well, not for a very long time). At least from that page though, it reads as: the company made a game about mental health where people believe they treated it terribly, and now they have been given another game about mental health to remake, and so people think they will also treat it terribly. What's the problem with that?

To pull a quote from that page:

The proof is ultimately in the pudding, no "chance" required.

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Seems fair to me.

 

[vio55555]

Yep.

Quoting myself from the reviews thread:

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Reading those posts about Medium..., yeesh; I had no idea that game was such a trainwreck. I don't see how Bloober deserves anything but a high level of cynicism/skepticism after delivering an experience like that.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

No one is obligated to give any studio or any game the benefit of the doubt. And review scores do not change anything about that either.

 

[Valkaria]

That vote ratio tells me a lot of people are not being honest with themselves.

 

[Kutaragi]

I'm totally cynic, generally speaking.

As a cynic, I find the idea of remaking THAT game with THAT konami NOWADAYS (because of social media) not very wise in the first place (unless Bloober had no other viable options on the table).

But I would never attack devs because of their vision, even if I think their vision is crap (and I think that for the vast majority of ideas, obviously).

Didn't played any Bloober games and I didn't read much about the SH2 remake either, but I was really interested in The Medium (the concept seems cool) until I forgot about its existence. Will add it at my wishlist right now.

Anyway, being cynic and being an asshole are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

I hate to be the cynical bastard here (especially in a thread about cynicism - the irony isn't lost on me) but this feels like a rehash of the post-Concord discussion about grave-dancing in which criticism, critical discussion and gaming deep-dives into themes and stats is all fine for enthusiasts to do until it's not. Or until it's about a game that we are interested in.

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I can't say that Bloobers games ever blew me away or that I was ever their greatest fan. They didn't and I'm not. I'm not a Bloober stan, far from it.

I wasn't overjoyed when the rumors about them developing SH2 started. Their history with games like The Medium didn't do them any favors.

I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though. Why? Because some of the most influential, original devs were onboard. They praised them for their faithfullness to the original, Akira Yamaoka was onboard - There were plenty of signs that this wasn't a repeat of games like The Medium.

And yet, the vitriol still stood out to me. It stood out for 2 straight years (and that's just counting from the official announcement).

It's one of many examples. If we don't talk about it honestly, how else do we change it?

 

[ConflictResolver]

I'd rather be skeptical than a victim of forced positivity.

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I think this is a good point, sometimes there are good faith cynics, criticisms and arguments made, but people who are all in on corporate bootlicking and forced positivity and the media cycle, want to strawman them as making an argument due to being inherently miserable and not because the criticisms are valid.

 

[Zor]

I hate to be the cynical bastard here (especially in a thread about cynicism - the irony isn't lost on me) but this feels like a rehash of the post-Concord discussion about grave-dancing in which criticism, critical discussion, deep-dives (and, yes, even blanket disregard for studios' output in this case - or in the case of many other developers and publishers) is all fine for enthusiasts to do until it's not. Or until it's about a game that we are interested in.

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I think this is spot-on.

 

[Revoltoftheunique]

Nah cynicism is fine. Like I'm not liking what I'm seeing from Silent Hill 2 remake nor do I like remakes in general. And I certainly do not like Bloober's previous games.

The issue is, as OP laid out with the quote post, is if it turns to hate. Because that post seems to come from misogyny.

 

[Derbel McDillet]

Era has got a lot more negative over the years in general about everything, there were even haters of Astro Bot in the past few weeks.

The bloober stuff was just crazy for this game, especially once glowing previews came out and it somehow still continued.

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This critique doesn't work when some people are so in love with something, any kind criticism is read as hate.

I find fandoms that demand universal acclaim to be way more annoying.

 

[TM_]

As a Bloober hater, I've yet to see this studio address the criticism that their previous games rightfully got for their depictions of sensitive subject matter and themes and even if SH2 remake is a great game then I'm not convinced it's because Bloober as a studio has changed and somehow become aware of the ways they fucked up with their previous games. If Bloober makes a new original game and shows how they've grown and they've learned to handle sensitive subject matter then I will have a reason to stop being a hater.

 

[Sande]

Era is very cynical and toxic. And it's still probably better than just about anywhere else.

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

I don't think that I am anymore—which is to admit that I used to be a cynic.

There was kind of a personal realization that for all of the things I would encounter in games that felt off in a way that would trigger my cynicism, my cynicism was way, way overstretching how my actual experience of playing games was going. Like, making a mountain out of a mole hill kind of dissonance. Like, there's things worth criticizing that still constantly happen, but at the end of the day, I still actually enjoy video games and didn't feel like I was expressing that appropriately thru my cynicism.

Basically, I decided that my cynicism overemphasized the worst parts of games and needlessly made me sound like a jerk of a hater. I just wanted to start sounding more like the truth that I was still more having a good time with video games, and not in a constant state of dislike and disgust.

Helps me mentally that my perspective on one of the things that brings me joy in life isn't tinted red with cynicism, too. Allowing myself to just enjoy what is actually good makes games more powerful and enjoyable. Literally made the idea of a 7/10 game go from "why the hell isn't this game even better" (cynic) to "this is mostly good and enjoyable" (not cynic)

 

[Super]

I always want to see uncut gameplay of games personally. Even then some things show can get cut from the game IE Cyberpunk wall running.

 

[Celestial Descend]

Developer sensei won't notice you OP, no matter how long your post is.

I'm not a cynic. I judge a studio by their track record. If you have a bad track record, I don't have faith in your next game, until you actual make something that proves me wrong. I believe this is the most rational approach, and a better way to talk about upcoming games than forced positivity and mindless hype.

I'm not a horror game fan, and I don't know much about Bloober, so I'm not in a place to comment on them specifically. But I did my fair share of bashing on games on this forum, and I regret nothing. I gladly ate crow several times.

 

[Sir Lucan]

Regarding Silent Hill 2, some people in the horror community were bringing up very valid concerns about the game and being accused of being toxic. Toxic positivity is also a thing. The problem is some people enjoy hype cycles way too much to the point where valid discussion is seen as a problem.

That doesn't mean the game hasn't received unjustified hate by some people, sure. But I saw someone being criticized because he was talking about some problems with the image quality of the game. This is a triple A game being sold for 70€ on PC, and yet if you mention minor details that look bad you get criticized? It's dumb.

 

[Gavalanche]

Developer sensei won't notice you OP, no matter how long your post is.

I'm not a cynic. I judge a studio by their track record. If you have a bad track record, I don't have faith in your next game, until you actual make something that proves me wrong. I believe this is the most rational approach, and a better way to talk about upcoming games than forced positivity and mindless hype.

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Yeah similar to me. You are only as good as your last game. BioWare is a prime example. I don't have faith in Dragon Age and BioWare. If the game is good though, I will be extremely happy to be proven wrong.

 

[pinata]

I feel like I'm a lot more cynical when it comes to the discourse around games online than I am to games and game developers.

 

[Wulfram]

Being cynical about unproven products is good. Being a toxic jerk isn't.

 

[flotsam]

I'm struggling to understand how the words "cynic" and "cynicism" are being used here. Skepticism, pessimism, criticism, or even just being an asshole aren't necessarily cynical.

 

[happydeer]

Developer sensei won't notice you OP, no matter how long your post is.

I'm not a cynic. I judge a studio by their track record. If you have a bad track record, I don't have faith in your next game, until you actual make something that proves me wrong. I believe this is the most rational approach, and a better way to talk about upcoming games than forced positivity and mindless hype.

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That's how I do it as well.

 

[StraySheep]

You'll get a lot of no votes but the discourse says otherwise.

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The people who vote no may be less likely to comment in general so the scale feels tilted.

I don't think I've ever commented on a Bloober thread.

 

[crazillo]

You know, it definitely helps that I've been learning to make games myself. It's hard as fuck and I appreciate the efforts developers put into their projects. Some hit the mark, some miss the mark, but I'll always respect their hard work. Nobody wants to make a bad game, it's just hard. As for Bloober specifically, I've appreciated Observer quite a lot, while some other games weren't for me as much. I think other studios in the past have been able to grow, and I'm happy the same is true for them now.

 

[PallasKitten]

The kind of things you described OP are one of the reasons I tend to largely ignore threads on big upcoming games, especially if there's any kind of controversy attached to them or the developers, and I've pretty much ignored almost all threads on the SH2 remake here. Being skeptical and cynical is fine, but it does sometimes feel like it's veers too close to the edge of just being straight up toxic, or even bigoted in some instances. I don't come to a gaming forum to just see negativity 100% of the time, so I generally can't be bothered to sift through that noise most of the time.

I do agree Era is a lot better with this kind of stuff at least, and it's one of the few gaming communities/forums I tolerate at all any more. But it can still get pretty bad at times, at which points I usually just check out of the conversations, and/or hit ignore thread. It's a shame because I do enjoy healthy criticism when it comes to games, but all it can take is a single person taking things way too far (or straight up trolling) to derail/ruin an entire discussion sometimes.

 

[Unaha-Closp]

I can't do rampant positivity for the sake of it. Naughty Dog have put out games I have enjoyed, lots of them, so when they say "hey here is our next one" the positivity is easy to come by. If that game is one I did not end up enjoying, then the next one will be harder to stay positive for, see Bethesda Game Studio, I enjoyed many of their games, then I didn't, now I am really not positive I will enjoy their next one. Blind optimism doesn't seem like a realistic state of mind to live by, where is the evidence that it will always work out? So I base my optimism on past enjoyment. At the blunt end of the hobby, I am only a consumer, with limited money to spend on games, being cynical about a release from a dev/studio/publisher of whom I have not enjoyed their previous output, seems entirely sensible. If you are talking about being toxic and hostile, then no, of course not.

 

[Damn Silly]

It's fine to be cynical, it's fine to be positive, both can veer into being toxic.

 

[spman2099]

There's a difference between healthy skepticism and straight up hate. I'm sure you're well aware, the thread isn't aimed at you or people with similar takes on SH2.

It's to highlight a behavior I've seen. It's to highlight how goddamn toxic it is. It's to try to prevent it from happening again.

I don't want us to just look at the reviews, shrug and move on.

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You see, if there was ever a developer to be healthily skeptical of, it is Bloober Team. This whole thread comes across as defensive lashing out. People had well-warranted concerns when it came to Bloober remaking Silent Hill 2. In some ways, it felt like the worst possible scenario. It is awesome that things turned pretty well for that game, but that doesn't mean that those concerns weren't warranted. There wasn't anything toxic about it.

 

[Guaraná]

People love to hate

 

[ventuno]

I don't really see how helpful it is to just lump any and all criticism as "hate" considering the wide range of criticism coming from different sources, especially when you're being reductive about why there was so much distrust towards Bloober given Silent Hill 2's themes because the metacritic scores are backing your argument up.

You call on Era to be better about criticism, but you're narrowing down concerns about how trauma, abuse and guilt would be handled by a studio with a poor track record to "hate".

It's especially frustrating to see this thread when the mildest criticism towards bigotry including but not limited to racism, misogyny, transphobia and homophobia is met with harassment, ridicule and dismissals.

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

You see, if there was ever a developer to be healthily skeptical of, it is Bloober Team. This whole thread comes across as defensive lashing out. People had well-warranted concerns when it came to Bloober remaking Silent Hill 2. In some ways, it felt like the worst possible scenario. It is awesome that things turned pretty well for that game, but that doesn't mean that those concerns weren't warranted. There wasn't anything toxic about it.

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I'm sorry to say, but then you were just not paying attention to it.

Those threads are still here, you know. I encourage you to read this one in particular.

You're telling me this is "healthy discourse"? It's disingenuous and it's just plain revisionism to say all criticism was valid and solely based on The Medium etc., when no, it really wasn't.

It was... "What's wrong with his face?! This is so bad!!" levels of crap.

Just toxic, period.

 

[Burgess_101]

They made their own bed, they can lie in it.

 

[Jetsun Mila]

I'd rather be skeptical than a victim of forced positivity.

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How about being neutral, you do realize that it is possible as well?
And it really feels like some aren't capable of having a "let's wait and see" approach, as if you have to be at one side, cynical or optimistic.

 

[Grips]

a lot of it is people following the hate wagon.

but also a lot of it is people fed up of games releasing half baked.

 

[Zor]

I'm sorry to say, but then you were just not paying attention to it.

Those threads are still here, you know. I encourage you to read this one in particular.

You're telling me this is "healthy discourse"? It's disingenuous and it's just plain revisionism to say all criticism was valid and solely based on The Medium etc., when no, it really wasn't.

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I don't think you've created this thread in good faith if you're unwilling to acknowledge the more nuanced criticisms and lump it all into "hate" whilst also saying that others aren't paying attention.

I don't think I've seen you once acknowledge peoples' genuine issues, just throw it all under toxicity.

 

[Santar]

All I know is there definetively was a lot of "eating crackers" going on in SH2R threads.
People were complaining about the most inane things. "His hair on the left part of his temple is all wrong!!"

 

[boris_feinbrand]

Cynicism is intellectual lazyness.
So of course it sells well in this outrage fueled social media economy.