#CrunchNoMore I will not buy Last of Us 2. Join me

Reckheim · Mar 13, 2020

Eggman said:
Lol its funny seeing people trying to be so high and mighty while they type their comments from their smart phone manufactured in China by people who work in much worse conditions.

Most of the stuff you own is made by someone working under worse conditions than video game developers. Seems like an odd place to draw the line.

The consoles they own are made with slave labour. The same console they would be playing TLOU2 on.

Wish OP would at least acknowledge this and give us an explanation why they are ok supporting slave labour but draw the line on crunch.

Like someone else said in this thread; just boycott the easy things. It doesn't feel genuine at all.

Deleted member 54073 · Mar 13, 2020

Things need to change but I dont think this is the way to go about it. You do you though.

Lausebub · Mar 13, 2020

Fredrik said:
That's a crappy idea. A game should pretty much be completely disconnected from the developer, a game needs to get a score based on how it is as a game and not because the dev is nice to their workers.

But I'll join in on the OP's request, I didn't like the focus on extreme violence anyway. Be better than this ND.

Rosebud said:
RDR has like 96 MC

SolidJaum said:
They won't do that because it's not their job to do this. They will review the game, not how it was made.

Anyway, if you want to boycott something because crunch happened, you should stop to play games, use mobile apps, etc. Crunch will happen sometime in development. Especially if you're trying to set a new standard.

How about every review talks about it but I doesn't factor ito the score? I think scores are meaningless anyways, so I don't realy care.

And RexNovis, DICE is also cruch free resetera, Glassdoor.

Katana_Strikes · Mar 13, 2020

KernelC said:
I feel like there is a hidden agenda here of people who weren't planning on buying either way, doesn't come off as genuine to me judging by responses. Especially since it seems like the developers are indeed getting paid quite well, unpaid crunch time is a huge no no.

Most are. It's a shame all this effort towards a good cause will be a waste because this will have next to no impact. The efforts need to be brought directly to Sony/all other pubs with this problem by making as much noise as possible on websites and social. The 10 games that this will genuinely sell less because of this movement won't cause a small ripple.

Deleted member 12352 · Mar 13, 2020

Singling out just one game is pointless... though you'd have to pretty much stop gaming altogether if you wanted such a gesture to actually mean anything.

I'll be sure to check in with how the movement is going around the release date of Cyberpunk 2077 or whatever though.

Eggman · Mar 13, 2020

You should boycott all of these companies while you're at it. These workers have it much harder than game developers in California. And it in olves millions of people.

Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft Implicated in Chinese Forced Labor Camps Report

Reports have surfaced and implicated Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft--the three main game console makers--on using what is essentially Chinese slave labor in order to build their consoles and devices.

techraptor.net

Original article

Uyghurs for sale

www.aspi.org.au

Badcoo · Mar 13, 2020

I've said this before. Buy it used! Developers don't see any of that money.

dunkzilla · Mar 13, 2020

KernelC said:
I feel like there is a hidden agenda here of people who weren't planning on buying either way, doesn't come off as genuine to me judging by responses. Especially since it seems like the developers are indeed getting paid quite well, unpaid crunch time is a huge no no.

That's exactly what this reads like.

werezompire · Mar 13, 2020

DontHateTheBacon said:
Also, if I did crunch on a game and get hospitalized, Miss major family milestones, etc; I'd hope that it was at least worth bringing people something they enjoyed.

Speaking from my own experience, I hated one of my own games for quite some time thanks to all the crunch & health/family difficulties involved in making it. And that was one of my dream games where I was the designer, programmer, and writer. I can guarantee you that random programmer or artist 73 who crunched like crazy because he didn't want to lose his job to the point where it hurt his health & family doesn't care one bit if anyone likes the result of that death march he was involved in. Best case scenario, he doesn't want to burn the company to the ground.

WordsintheWater · Mar 13, 2020

The era of Luigi said:
You are right op, but unfortunately we learned that people here don't care about workers health/safety. Hell, we had people angry about companies avoiding employee's contamination by the Corona virus because this affected their hobbies
"I want that conference"

There are people in this thread saying that we should buy regardless the crunch

That first sentence is unfair to say really. The truth is all of us are participating in shitty things with every piece of media we consume. Sure go ahead and boycott, but to say that if people don't boycott it means they don't care about workers health and safety, that's nonsense and honestly you can turn that around and more than likely say that to yourself.

We had a thread a week or so ago that companies like Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo use slave labor to make these consoles. Unless you're completely ethical with the shit you buy I don't think you have a right to say what you said in that first sentence.

lupinko · Mar 13, 2020

For those boycotting this game because of crunch, good for you, stand up for your cause.

Just don't buy this game used because that's not really a boycott, that's like going on a hunger strike while taking a break for some snacks.

But yeah good for you guys. I boycotted all the Persona fighting games because of Atlus' then attempts to make PS3 region lock a thing. And to this day, I have never played any of the ASW Persona fighting games on any console or on the Nesica arcade service.

Ricen-Beans · Mar 13, 2020

Sorry OP...I'm gonna order two copies now. So that the crunch is "not all for nothing".

Decarb · Mar 13, 2020

Katana_Strikes said:
Just a platform for trolls rather than trying to fix the situation.

At least people are being honest about why they're doing it. Its something.

MrWindUpBird · Mar 13, 2020

Curious if someone in the industry can answer this question.

Perhaps it's just a language barrier thing, but it seems most horror stories about crunch in the games industry come from America. I know CD Projekt suffers from crunch too, but is this is prevalent in other European and Asian countries? I know that work/life in Japan is already terrible but I am wondering if devs like Square Enix have this same issue.

Deleted member 2145 · Mar 13, 2020

Memento said:
First, this is going to be one of the biggest games of the year. Possibly the biggest Sony game ever. There is no way any boycott could ever work or have any minimal effect on a game of this magnitude.

doesn't mean people who care shouldn't attempt

Memento said:
Second, how would punish the devs that worked hard on the game help at all?

by holding the studio accountable for their worker conditions

Memento said:
Third, every single AAA dev are crunch-lead. All your favorite AAA games had intense crunch periods. Period.

blow the whistle then, this is about Naughty Dog specifically

Memento said:
The proper way of dealing with it IS TO UNIONIZE.

yes absolutely and until then consumers can choose to make their voices heard whether that's through social media pressure or the almighty wallet

Memento said:
Fourth, TLOU2 is the sequel to my favorite game ever. I will not be a hypocrite to follow a sense of moral that I already know it is virtually impossible to follow on a capitalist society.

I don't think anyone would be a hypocrite for making a stand, no one person has the capacity to fight for and boycott everything

Memento said:
I mean, our tech products are made with slave work.

I think we can all agree that there's a large gap between the necessity of something like a cell phone or computer vs. a video game, you're not really breaking new ground by pointing that out and generally it's just a weak deflection as is the case in this instance

Memento said:
Of course we need to stand up against it but it is EXTREMELY naive to think boycott campaigns would ever work against massively popular products.

there's always a "but" isn't there

Era of not Yakuza · Mar 13, 2020

WordsintheWater said:
Sure go ahead and boycott, but to say that if people don't boycott it means they don't care about workers health and safety

I was talking about people who got angry when Sony announced they would cancel participation in conferences

Deleted member 52442 · Mar 13, 2020

Badcoo said:
I've said this before. Buy it used! Developers don't see any of that money.

i'm down for this

oni-link · Mar 13, 2020

I'll get the game at some point, when it's cheap, as I always have a backlog and I'm never in a rush to play anything (I only played TLOU part 1 in 2018) but I agree crunch is a problem and we should keep it in the news and keep the pressure on the companies that do use crunch

I respect anyone who does decide to boycott the game, I just don't think it's going to hurt the people who make the decisions on strategy, nor will enough people boycott the game to the point where it won't meet expectations

Garlador · Mar 13, 2020

I really wish every game could be released with a banner that signifies how much crunch was involved in getting it to store shelves.

I'll hold off on buying TLOU2 for the time being. It's a good cause.

I would recommend going a step further though and writing the developers and publishers - both Naughty Dog and Sony - and explaining your disappointment and reasons why. I actively do this for games I am informed of that suffer from really egregious crunch, and no game is worth that misery, and I will gladly let those involved know so.

You can contact them here:
Naughty Dog Contact Page
Sony Playstation Contact Page

DontHateTheBacon · Mar 13, 2020

werezompire said:
Speaking from my own experience, I hated one of my own games for quite some time thanks to all the crunch & health/family difficulties involved in making it. And that was one of my dream games where I was the designer, programmer, and writer. I can guarantee you that random programmer or artist 73 who crunched like crazy because he didn't want to lose his job to the point where it hurt his health & family doesn't care one bit if anyone likes the result of that death march he was involved in. Best case scenario, he doesn't want to burn the company to the ground.

At a lot of studios, isn't this kind of the same thing in a different font? If the game bombs because no one buys it... don't people get laid off?

It's such a frustrating situation all around. I don't know what's right to do, and I can only see through the lens in life that I was given and try to understand others'. Bah.

Katana_Strikes · Mar 13, 2020

Decarb said:
At least people are being honest about why they're doing it. Its something.

Thread backfire confirmed.

TooBusyLookinGud · Mar 13, 2020

I'm buying the hell out of it. If people think that crunch only happens in gaming, then you are living under a rock.

I fully support and understand the people who are not though.

Deleted member 2145 · Mar 13, 2020

The era of Luigi said:
"If you cant do everything then you shouldn't do anything"
Signed: Whataboutism's troll

lol, pretty much

this should be at the top of every page tbh

WordsintheWater · Mar 13, 2020

The era of Luigi said:
I was talking about people who got angry when Sony announced they would cancel participation in conferences

Well your first sentence is directly referencing the original post followed by saying that people here don't care about the health of workers. The OP is discussing crunch, and how he is boycotting the game. If that wasn't your intention and you were talking about the conference thread then cool.

exstuhsey · Mar 13, 2020

Wasn't buying it anyways but if I was i wouldn't not buy it, I don't see it helping.

R dott B · Mar 13, 2020

I'll buy it used.

RF Switch · Mar 13, 2020

Nahhhhh

Swift_Gamer · Mar 13, 2020

I think this is not the right way to do this... I'll buy and play the game. But what has to change, ultimately, is the capitalist logic.
We all have to realize that most of our problems have the same source, the greed and need to make money and overproduce.
Capitalism has to end.

DC5remy · Mar 13, 2020

Not like this.... not this game..

I agree it's an awful practice and needs to stop.

Katana_Strikes · Mar 13, 2020

Garlador said:
I would recommend going a step further though and writing the developers and publishers - both Naughty Dog and Sony - and explaining your disappointment and reasons why. I actively do this for games I am informed of that suffer from really egregious crunch, and no game is worth that misery, and I will gladly let those involved know so.

You can contact them here:
Naughty Dog Contact Page
Sony Playstation Contact Page

Exactly what people should be doing. As well as all others that do this. Get talking to websites/journalists/social media and making noise to start a movement. Boycotting doesn't work and it'll be as loud as a fart in a hurricane.

Strangelove_77 · Mar 13, 2020

Yeah Im not gonna do that. It's one of very few things I look forward to nowadays.

I've accepted the fact that most if not all electronics I own are made for cents by very overworked and probably unhappy people. I know about all the chickens cruelly stuffed in their cages, that some dogs doing cute tricks are beaten or mistreated into doing them and I know that these games have managed to stay $60 for a reason. I guess I'm not a very good person since this doesn't stop me from buying the things I want.
Says a lot about a gaming forum full of middle class people having thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of electronics in their possession. Someone suffered for that $4000 gaming pc. This site is pretty educated, so you either know or don't care.

Betty · Mar 13, 2020

Please give me a god damn break.

Folk can wallow in self pity all they like and pretend they won't be buying the game, but the fact is, if you were already going to buy it this news will not be changing your mind on that one bit.

Only people joining this are folk that were never interested or people lying because they want to gain sympathy, misery and reactions from others.

The only thing that could impact the game is the current virus but considering most of us get our games either digitally or via Amazon etc then I can't see it failing at all.

Also, there'd better be just as big a fuss when Cyberpunk 2077 is coming up for release from the same people pretending to care about this.

Bold One · Mar 13, 2020

Secretofmateria said:
Its a nice sentiment...but no one will stick to their laurels with this

No way, are you saying era posters are just here to gain righteousness xp?

dreamstation · Mar 13, 2020

I've posted this before and I'll post it again. I work in the farming industry where the season dictates the workload. There are busy times and there are quiet times. Busy times see me working upwards of 68 hours per week (12 hours Monday to Friday, 8 hours on Saturday) and this is with a corporate operation. Private farmers often do more hours. This can last upwards of 3 to 6 months straight. I get paid penalty rates for anything over 40 hours. I understand this is a requirement of my job and I accept it. If I didn't I would look for work elsewhere. I'm not sure what the big deal is so long as the employees are being paid for their work.

Jimbojim · Mar 13, 2020

Can't they just hire more people right at the beginning of the project to do the work in the same allocated time given to develop the game so they can get rid of the "crunch" and people can have normal lives again? It's not complicated it seems at first glance

Weltall Zero · Mar 13, 2020

Ghost Slayer said:
One is slavery. Another is crunch.

ThePhantom said:
Doesn't matter which is more likely. The hypocrisy is laughable.

E.T. said:
The hypocrisy never ceases to amaze me, not only on this topic but so many other too.

zMiiChy- said:
The bottom line is that it's damnably concerning that the thread concerning slave labor has significantly less traction than the crunch topics.

Yeah, about that "hypocrisy" thing...

Weltall Zero said:
This is some fucking cyberpunk grade dystopic shit. Actually it's worse; even in cyberpunk, workers are rarely literal slaves, and race / religion rarely plays a part.

It would be really nice if the gaming press reported about this en masse. The fact that all three major console manufacturers are guilty unfortunately makes it hard to pressure any of them into finding alternative means of production, because they can always point at the other two. This is classic "it's not illegal and everyone else is doing it" laissez-faire capitalist bullshit. Unless governments ban trade with China or at least companies engaging in these practices, I don't see anything changing. :(

If only we had some term for pearl-clutching about priorities when in reality you don't much care or contribute to the discussion of either besides deflection... :(

ClockworkOwl · Mar 13, 2020

Murdock said:
Not buying this. Fuck sony

Sony isn't forcing them to work overtime. That's entirely on Naughty Dog. If you're going to be angry at least be angry at the right people.

That1GoodHunter · Mar 13, 2020

Crunching is shitty as all hell

But if you think people are going boycott TLOU, Cyberpunk/The Witcher, and GTA.... No

lazerface · Mar 13, 2020

I definitely sympathize with anyone that has to be hospitalized for exhaustion, some people aren't built for that kind of grind. Unfortunately any industry that has deadlines on projects will inevitably have some sort of crunch to reach the finish line. I will be supporting all the developers who worked hard and put their passion into the last of us 2.

Chaystic · Mar 13, 2020

Badcoo said:
I've said this before. Buy it used! Developers don't see any of that money.

So it's just about the money for you? You're still fine with playing games from that company and supporting them indirectly. If you wanna boycott them and make a statement don't play their games at all.

astro · Mar 13, 2020

Boycotts can instigate change. Veganism is a boycott of meat and dairy and animal products and it is slowly changing things.

FinalStageBoss · Mar 13, 2020

Nah. Buying multiple copies for me and my brothers tbh. Y'all are gonna have to boycott many games though. Good luck with that shit.

Weltall Zero · Mar 13, 2020

plow said:
It's not whataboutism in telling there is actually worse things in the world happening even in gaming right now.

That is, quite literally, the definition of whataboutism. What do you think whataboutism is?

BarryFishFinger · Mar 13, 2020

Nope.

It's an admirable sentiment, but a boycott won't work and until Devs themselves get together and unionize nothing will change.

Mobyduck · Mar 13, 2020

Gero said:
You are a jackass according to some in this thread. Man, this forum sometimes. So many white knights and internet warriors

Should probably work on your reading comprehension.

Spinluck · Mar 13, 2020

Chaystic said:
I haven't seen anyone actively supporting crunch times, most of us just don't believe that boycotting games is the solution to stop it.

I mean, I'm buying the game as well. I literally say the devs are probably better off for us buying something they poured so much into.

Anyone boycotting the game has the prerogative to do so if they wish to take a stand against such practices.

werezompire · Mar 13, 2020

DontHateTheBacon said:
At a lot of studios, isn't this kind of the same thing in a different font? If the game bombs because no one buys it... don't people get laid off?

If the game doesn't bomb, they're still getting fired because they never had a full-time job there in the first place. That's how a crunch-focused company works - they hire a bunch of temporary labor without benefits to get stuff done as quickly as possible. Of the full-time employees, there's high turnover due to the toxic environment so even with the full-time employees, they're paying the minimum amount. When a game succeeds & sells a lot, the management benefits from it, not the rank & file people who were doing the crazy work to make it in the first place.

To put it another way, for these kinds of companies, employee burn out isn't a bug, it's a feature. If everyone quits before they reach seniority and can start demanding better pay & more benefits, it keeps costs low.

IMCaprica · Mar 13, 2020

It's always wild to see so many people be quick to shit on people who are unwilling to buy a game because of crunch. Also I find the talk of developer passion for a game to be laughably naive. I know people like to think positively, but there's a good chance many who worked on this game don't give a fuck about it. They're there to do a job and they've done it.

If you don't want to boycott because you think there has to be change at a macro level then that's fine too. I'm with you. But how many of you are actually showing up to vote for people who want to help works? How many of you are contacting your government officials to let them know about this issue? Because I suspect a lot of those kinds of people are just here to justify their purchase and not actually do anything for these devs.

DiscoShark · Mar 13, 2020

Didn't even like the first one, easiest boycott of my life.

Deleted member 2145 · Mar 13, 2020

ClockworkOwl said:
Sony isn't forcing them to work overtime. That's entirely on Naughty Dog. If you're going to be angry at least be angry at the right people.

lol

good lord man

#CrunchNoMore I will not buy Last of Us 2. Join me

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