Yeah I saw your post in that thread after, hopefully we get some more responses because shit like this can quickly sour people on public figures since their actions and opinions hold so much weight.
Out of curiosity, what other stuff as PT done? I know he has been becoming more left wing in recent times so can imagine his online history isn't as clean cut as you would imagine it now.
I'm curious (and short on time to go look it up for myself): What has Coffin said about it all? I saw Shaun's retweet, but I don't keep up to date with Coffin as much.
He once made a pretty dumb tweet that essentially read like this: "When LefTube [or Breadtube, can't remember] dies, I'll still be here hahaha", which sparked the whole conversation about the need for an organized leftist movement on YouTube/the internet rather than treating it like a market where you make dough by cultivating a personal brand and carving yourself a nice little audience. If that sounds like something someone like Peter Coffin would argue, that's because he was basically at the forefront of that conversation. At any rate, it's through reading his Twitter that I first became aware of the controversy.
Sidenote, but as I looked for the specific tweet (couldn't find it, sorry), I stumbled upon a Twitter thread that pointed out that his recent tweet about Contra's new vid was posted before the controversy started. For all we know, he didn't even know Buck Angel was in it, or who he was exactly. That said, it's not like he came out and addressed the whole thing after the controversy started, so yeah.
In fairness, Coffin tweets too goddamn much, and his prose can be quite abstract and nebulous. His ideas can be interesting, but his style is laborious.
He also has a more recent thread about being non-binary. I had to read his tweets all the way back from a week ago (hope you're proud of what you made me do :p) to find this. His takes on controversies, whether you agree with them or not - I'm honestly not sure where I stand on this -, seem to be pretty consistent at least. It's pretty much "social media bad, fewer controversies, more organizing, let's get shit done people".
Gutian had a pretty good video on addressing mistakes:
[EDIT] Yeah, I doubt Hbomb would call Contrapoints a "shithead" even if they had a falling out lol. This is definitely aimed at Buck Angel, whose found a friend in non-other that Graham Linehan/Glinner. Hbomb raised 300k+ dollars for a charity just to spite Glinner, so yeah.
Pretty sure that word was directed at Buck Angel. IIRC they both featured in that video.
[EDIT] Yeah, I doubt Hbomb would call Contrapoints a "shithead" even if they had a falling out lol. This is definitely aimed at Buck Angel, who's found a friend in non-other that Graham Linehan/Glinner.
Thanks for the response, appreciated.He once made a pretty dumb tweet that essentially read like this: "When LefTube [or Breadtube, can't remember] dies, I'll still be here hahaha", which sparked the whole conversation about the need for an organized leftist movement on YouTube/the internet rather than treating it like a market where you make dough by cultivating a personal brand and carving yourself a nice little audience. If that sounds like something someone like Peter Coffin would argue, that's because he was basically at the forefront of that conversation. At any rate, it's through reading his Twitter that I first became aware of the controversy.
Sidenote, but as I looked for the specific tweet (couldn't find it, sorry), I stumbled upon a Twitter thread that pointed out that his recent tweet about Contra's new vid was posted before the controversy started. For all we know, he didn't even know Buck Angel was in it, or who he was exactly. That said, it's not like he came out and addressed the whole thing after the controversy started, so yeah.
Let's get some key points out of the way:That's fair, I didn't mean to infantilize her, just to be empathetic and understanding, something that I try to extend to everybody regardless of who they are, as much as I (and my mental health) can. And we're definitely agreeing on the latter part, I do think people are absolutely right on calling her out and awaiting answers to why she did what she did, whether about the enby issue, or the transmedicalist one. However, I feel like she also is a human being, that the huge height her tree has reached isn't necessarily her own fault/doing either, but that it makes her fuck-ups even more tragically big and hurtful to the trans community, whether she wants it or not. What I do know however is that I have the mental energy to wish her to grow on those issues, but definitely understand why some won't anymore, and I will signal-boost the constructive criticism she receives and deserves.
Double post but philosophy tube has responded:
Have to say, its a really shit comment.
Like it starts off with a blanket, supportive statement about trans and nonbinary people, goes onto his own personal harassment (never acceptable of course) and then pimps his next video.
Not once does he actually acknowledge the actual problem or even hint at it.
FFS.
I just don't understand why it's so fucking hard for people to understand.Came in here to post the tweet. I agree, it's shit. It's a non-statement. It's a plug for his upcoming video, and not a whole lot else. Disappointed to see Hbomb retweet this as if giving his tacit approval.
Yeah, that's the exact position I'm in. It's impossible for someone like Olly not to understand what's happening here, and it feels so disingenuous in light of how smart of a guy he actually is. I understand that he's in a difficult spot considering his friendship with and admiration for Natalie, but he can acknowledge the problematic stuff without throwing her under the bus. I'm not advocating for the cancellation of anyone or anything like that at this point, I still consider myself a fan of both Olly's and Natalie's work overall (although I haven't been into their latest, most theatrical stuff as much), I just want them to show some damn self awareness for starters.I just don't understand why it's so fucking hard for people to understand.
Like I'm a cishet guy and yet I can easily see the problem with this yet I'm to believe people who talk about philosophy, society and marginalised people regularly don't see the problem with shitty responses like this?
Exactly, there is a way to do it without throwing her under the bus but to flat out not mention thr actual problem just comes across as disingenuous and to placate people instead of actually having an opinion on the situation at hand.Yeah, that's the exact position I'm in. It's impossible for someone like Olly not to understand what's happening here, and it feels so disingenuous in light of how smart of a guy he actually is. I understand that he's in a difficult spot considering his friendship with and admiration for Natalie, but he can acknowledge the problematic stuff without throwing her under the bus. I'm not advocating for the cancellation of anyone or anything like that at this point, I still consider myself a fan of both Olly's and Natalie's work overall (although I haven't been into their latest, most theatrical stuff as much), I just want them to show some damn self awareness for starters.
Let's get some key points out of the way:
I say this because it's honestly becoming a little patronising to hear how "she's only human" and how others have understanding or empathy so that's why they're able to give her the benefit of the doubt. Which I appreciate isn't your intention, but it comes up a lot. It implies a level of compassion on the side willing to spontaneously forgive, when often those positioned to do so are the least affected by that which they're willing to forgive. It suggests that trans/n-b people with a criticism levelled against her don't appreciate that she's human and can make mistakes, if that's the basis on which forgiveness is being metered on.
- I'm also empathetic and understanding toward people
- I'm not worn down by her and equally hope she learns from mistakes
- I am able to both criticise her and support her in wanting to do better
It's also misplaced and prettified language, which is my second issue. "Being human" and making mistakes isn't synonymous with being an outspoken advocate for trans rights and then promoting a well-known transphobe. Nor is it synonymous with patterns of behaviour that result in a specific minority within the LGBT community being targeted. We aren't talking about writing the wrong address on an envelope and this isn't the first time these issues have come up.
Saying "she also is a human being" within the context of inviting a transmedicalist onto her show makes no sense other than to blunt or dismiss criticism levelled at her. It's wasn't an accident, it was a conscious choice in the full knowledge of the past issues she's had with the non-binary community. That isn't an "only human" level of error and treating it as one is dismissive by nature.
The term "growth" as used as well, to say what - the ability to learn from ones mistakes? When used in response to criticism though it's not saying that, it's also saying the ability to forgive them. Do you think those taking issue wouldn't want to see her desist in making these repeat mistakes? The forgiveness however surely rests eventually on that next action having learned from them. Which isn't happening.
So, ultimately, it boils down to not really getting what you're trying to say. I want to see her improve and stop making the mistakes that negatively affect part of the community. I support her and wish for her to do well, and would never wish harm upon her. I am also critical of her for recent remarks and decisions. She may not have chosen the heights she has but then again, if I'm at the top of a skyscraper I'm less inclined to try acrobatics. If I do and slip and catch myself then I might consider being more careful the next time I try.
This is a repeat issue that has recurred and people are misplaced in remarking on the extent to which they're able to offer forgiveness and hope to the acts that didn't affect them. Even outside of impact, the notion that we should move to inherently excuse actions when they amount to repeatedly deciding to publicly tweet in a way that is critical and dismissive of non-binary people or inviting someone on that dismisses their existence entirely is poor.
There's an enormous amount of effort in padding Natalie and treating her as a delicate flower needing to grow, with zero mind paid to the flowers trampled on in order to do so.
Double post but philosophy tube has responded:
Have to say, its a really shit comment.
Like it starts off with a blanket, supportive statement about trans and nonbinary people, goes onto his own personal harassment (never acceptable of course) and then pimps his next video.
Not once does he actually acknowledge the actual problem or even hint at it.
FFS.
Not only that but it feels like the fact he brought up his harassment is a way to sidestep any further criticism by being able to lump it in with 'cancel culture'.Yeah that really isn't doing much of anything, really. It feels like he's also sort of preemptively avoiding future backlash about his video whenever it'll get released, by emphasizing on how he started working on it before any of this ContraPoint criticism happened, and that's just missing the point a lot?
Just to be sure as well, that was delving into the why a bit - I never doubted your intention as being anything other than positive. You can still come and share some blueberry pancakes Delphine, it's good.I hear you, and I apologize for sounding patronizing, or implying any of the concerned person wouldn't have enough empathy for her. That wasn't my goal in the slightest, I clearly didn't express myself well enough there, and I'm sorry for that. I'm glad you took the time to answer me, thank you a lot, this has been enlightening. And yes, I wanna pay and do try to pay attention to the trampled flowers, but will do better in that regard, as I probably haven't done enough.
Wow, Olly and Hbomb's 'apologies' are basically night and day in how to to handle this stuff. Am I even reading the same apology as everyone else for Olly here? He didn't address shit.
Hbomb's apology? He's made what looks like a preamble to a more thought-out statement, sure, but I don't see any real response so far. Unless it's not on Twitter? Er, also, again, assuming he had no prior knowledge of Buck's involvement or stances, he has nothing to apologize for. However, it's reasonable to expect some kind of stance, given his stated beliefs and the situation with Graham Linehan.
Swap out apology for response then. Their responses to the situation has been night and day.
Just to be sure as well, that was delving into the why a bit - I never doubted your intention as being anything other than positive. You can still come and share some blueberry pancakes Delphine, it's good.
Double post but philosophy tube has responded:
Have to say, its a really shit comment.
Like it starts off with a blanket, supportive statement about trans and nonbinary people, goes onto his own personal harassment (never acceptable of course) and then pimps his next video.
Not once does he actually acknowledge the actual problem or even hint at it.
FFS.
More focus on parasocial relationships and friendship with no reference to the harm Natalie's caused a marginalised group. Bonus points from 'trans activist' Buck Angel.
More focus on parasocial relationships and friendship with no reference to the harm Natalie's caused a marginalised group. Bonus points from 'trans activist' Buck Angel.
More focus on parasocial relationships and friendship with no reference to the harm Natalie's caused a marginalised group. Bonus points from 'trans activist' Buck Angel.
More focus on parasocial relationships and friendship with no reference to the harm Natalie's caused a marginalised group. Bonus points from 'trans activist' Buck Angel.
I get the sense Lindsay is more pissed to be piled on for someone else's behaviour when she is already very weary of being involved in this shit at all.
Watch her XOXO talk, she does not tolerate being dragged into a public war.
I don't disagree. At the same she needs to understand by doing that she's drawing lines between white nationalist and... a small number on non-binary people who are responding directly to bigotry? You can't strip the context of why somebody's being 'piled on' or who they're being 'piled on' by. It's clear she cares more about her friend than the group of people she's repeatedly hurt. If that group of people were gay people or black people would she (or anybody else on 'breadtube') be pulling the same shit?
This ties into something I was thinking about earlier.I'm just struck that so many are so keen to draw focus to a 'doxxing mob' rather than draw any attention to the fact she's repeatedly hurt one group over time. This whole thing blew up largely due to the fact she thought it was a good idea to platform book after she specifically 'deleted' her Twitter because she kept making comments that hurt a specific community Buck denies the existence of.
I don't disagree. At the same she needs to understand by doing that she's drawing lines between white nationalist and... a small number on non-binary people who are responding directly to bigotry? You can't strip the context of why somebody's being 'piled on' or who they're being 'piled on' by. It's clear she cares more about her friend than the group of people she's repeatedly hurt. If that group of people were gay people or black people would she (or anybody else on 'breadtube') be pulling the same shit?
Also I think "the idea that a YouTuber's inner lived truth needs to match up 100% with your idea, is terrifying." is probably the worst thing to come out of this. Deflecting criticism of past biggotry and platforming biggots by saying the real issue is that the person doesn't think exactly like you want them to is such a blatant alt-right tactic.
I mean, do we?
I think this is a pretty poor response to the criticism and issues honestly (below). Can't speak to people asking Lindsey for an apology - haven't seen people here do so. In this she's referencing Natalie as well.I think people really need to take pause here. In no way does Lindsey defend Natalie's choices. She even offers her own perspective and says she wishes Natalie hadn't worked with Buck Angel.
The way you put yourself right here, you're not sounding all too different than the mob you're trying to differentiate yourself from. Natalie did put out a short response and said she's going to say more on the topic later. Is her further response really urgent? If it's what she's working on now then it's hard for me to get worked up. If she put out an unrelated video in the meantime then that would be a worrying sign that it's not coming.Lindsay says, both in her apology and in the XOXO video, that "apologizing doesn't work". Which, I agree, it doesn't... to the mob. But it works on the rest of us. You know, the people who can actually engage with criticism of the content in a reasonable fashion, and are willing to give second chances.
I think this is a pretty poor response to the criticism and issues honestly (below). Can't speak to people asking Lindsey for an apology - haven't seen people here do so. In this she's referencing Natalie as well.
Natalie did put out a short response and said she's going to say more on the topic later. Is her further response really urgent? If it's what she's working on now then it's hard for me to get worked up.
I think this is a pretty poor response to the criticism and issues honestly (below). Can't speak to people asking Lindsey for an apology - haven't seen people here do so. In this she's referencing Natalie as well.
It was on Patreon. I get that it's a little weird that it was on Patreon first, but I think it makes sense to lead with a short response quicker in more private places. I think she knew it would get re-shared around a bit.Where is the response? I heard she posted something on Patreon, but I'm not a patron so I didn't get a chance to read it. Not sure why it's just on Patreon.
I don't know, maybe it's all just a matter of communications or PR. Trying to put myself in her shoes, I feel like a sensible way to handle this would be something like typing out a short tweet where I'd simply acknowledge the issue, that I've been reading the responses and reflecting, and that I'm working on a more thoughtful response in the near future. I can't speak for anyone myself, but for me, that would be more than enough.
I don't know. I still agree with Natalie's original statement and I've talked to a lot of non binary people NOT on outrage Twitter to get their perspectives and to them it basically boils down to "that totally makes sense to me because she's a woman and wants to be treated as a woman...and non binary people may not be". This performative stuff on the Twitter left is too much.
By the way, I thought the wider thread would be interested in this. She's going to attempt to address this in her next video:
The way you put yourself right here, you're not sounding all too different than the mob you're trying to differentiate yourself from. Natalie did put out a short response and said she's going to say more on the topic later. Is her further response really urgent? If it's what she's working on now then it's hard for me to get worked up. If she put out an unrelated video in the meantime then that would be a worrying sign that it's not coming.
I don't fault Olly and Lindsay and Natalie for finding the thing that's really urgent to deal with is the toxic mob pile-on part specifically and trying to address that part first.
---
I think Lindsay had some iffy parts in her recent post. Read alone, it could imply she'd act this same way (refusing to publicly call out a friend) regardless of what Natalie did. If Natalie did something unambiguously more extreme, like platformed a white supremacist who wasn't known for anything but their white supremacy and platformed their views specifically without rebuttal, then I think it would be more than fair to expect people she was associated with to make a response and distance themselves. But if you swap that for a more ambiguous situation (and I argue that the situation we have lands more in the ambiguous middle of the spectrum), then I think it gets exponentially more toxic for people to pile-on in the way that she and her associates have had to deal with. I think what she wrote was meant to be read in the current context; it was a quickly written thing and not meant as a perfect statement of general principles.
It was on Patreon. I get that it's a little weird that it was on Patreon first, but I think it makes sense to lead with a short response quicker in more private places. I think she knew it would get re-shared around a bit.
Her response reads to me like what you said. Personally, I think she should have put the gist of it in a tweet too, but I think the pile-on she's getting is really distracting and she knows that a tweet may invite more of it. Getting piled on from all sides for slightly different things is massively disorienting, and having experienced a tiny fraction of a disorienting pile-on before, I'm not able to blame someone for doing something (patreon post rather than tweet) they think might lessen it for now.