T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,284
It's not about hyper detailed skins, it's about textures that don't look like they belong to 2011. Gamers might have been forgiving this year, but in 5 years when things might be different.
I'm convinced the power of established IP and consistency in the brand is why no one will ever expect hyper realism in Nintendo products. They've always zagged away from it and for the most part people in the media are never critical of it because Nintendo keeps leaning into their brand image and people still like consuming it

Performance is the only thing they get dinged on really. That and Pokemon as a whole but even that is a hyper minority
 

pappacone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
3,330
Something that might help Sony is to not cut the prices of their own games. Nintendo games rarely drop in price and that has conditioned consumers to buy at full price. Heck, I remember seeing a full-price copy of Mario 64 DS at a big-box store like seven years after it released. @_@
people forget that Nintendo has a weaker library of big third party games.
Keeping your games at 70/80 euros, while in the same store you can find al the major Capcom, Square, Ubisoft, Activision etc games at 40 or 20 euros is difficult.

Actually I wonder how having a Switch 2 more open to third parties will affect Nintendo's games
 

Joe White

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,081
Finland
Something that might help Sony is to not cut the prices of their own games. Nintendo games rarely drop in price and that has conditioned consumers to buy at full price. Heck, I remember seeing a full-price copy of Mario 64 DS at a big-box store like seven years after it released. @_@

Reducing availability is not the right move for Sony, and they are already monetizing discounts by locking some of those behind subscriptions.
 

Deleted member 162951

Jan 11, 2024
81
Something that might help Sony is to not cut the prices of their own games. Nintendo games rarely drop in price and that has conditioned consumers to buy at full price. Heck, I remember seeing a full-price copy of Mario 64 DS at a big-box store like seven years after it released. @_@
That wouldn't work, because the competition is much higher on PlayStation. PlayStation has much more games available. Switch misses on many 3rd party games. Also the reason why people buy the consoles is different. I think most people buy Nintendo for the exclusives while most people buy Playstation for 3rd party.
 

turkoman_

Member
Apr 29, 2023
219
I'm surprised we aren't seeing the episodic method adopted more than we have.

I am very curious about Hellblade II's success. Not exactly episodic but smaller and cheaper cinematic game available on a subscription service.

I wonder how will it turn out and what Microsoft will feel about it.
 

Hanzo

Member
Dec 10, 2023
427
They payed and enjoyed the previous, much cheaper titles too.

The budget bloat was not worth it.
Both were worth. The game was an improvement over the first,, more variety, also fidelity is higher. The results are there. It was better for shareholders? Don't know. Sony got good money from it? Sure. And will still make more profit as game will sell more. Also gamers got an excellent game. Yes. It was worth.
 

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,176
Who knew we had it good during the days of yearly franchises with A/B teams alternating to develop each title eh.

Now Square Enix who released a lot of mid budget 7/10 titles will stop doing that. Bandai Namco as well. Atlus used to have yearly Etrian Odyssey but you just don't hear anything again. Prince of Persia The Lost Crown was supposed to be what a lot of posters here want by "scaling back" AAA development and who bought that?

I think Iwata was right that higher graphics, 4K, 60FPS, 10 Teraflops isn't required on gaming platforms that making a AAA game is getting closer to half a billion US dollars to invest. We might reach a point that Sony and MS start using Nintendo's approach of gimmicks and just using cheaper PC parts to get as much "graphics, technology and power" for a console. Guess we'll see what happens in 5-10 years time, but the power console race seems to be losing steam.

Nintendo relied on gimmicks because they have a toy company DNA, MS is a software company hence their solution to this (at the time being) is GamePass and "Xbox platform". Sony's move remains to be seen but they are the de facto winner of "console wars" (which IMO ended in PS2 generation) so they have quite the leeway to plan their move. But yeah all three are reacting to the fact that console market is getting tougher.
 

Robotoboy

Member
Oct 7, 2018
1,246
Tulsa, OK
To add working hours are longer in the US than in Japan for quite a long time. Japan is basically a different country compare to 3 or 4 decades ago in terms of the working environment.

Average annual hours actually worked per worker

OECD.Stat enables users to search for and extract data from across OECD’s many databases.

There's still the unspoken expectation of brutal overtime though. That hasn't gone anywhere.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,635
Which leads to infinite growth, always more, or I'll put money elsewhere. There's never enough
The infinite growth argument is reductive and has become shorthand for just angrily shaking your first and grumbling 'grrr capitalism'. Growth is infinite in the same way that inflation is infinite. Many investors will be happy if your growth is higher than inflation, if you run a low risk business. The AAA games industry, with make or break big budget productions that are 5 years in development and then have to cross fingers that 1) the game is good 2) the market is good 3) timing is favorable 4) audience tastes haven't changed, is anything but low risk.

People love the abstract the market and act like this are out of whack. The COVID-years did make the economy crazy for a couple of years, but what's happening to the gaming industry isn't some crazy capitalist ploy. 100 USD from 2019 is now equal to 120 USD. If I gave you 100 USD back then to go do something and you promise me it'll be worth my while, and then today you come back and tell me that my investment has grown 10%, I still have less money than I started with. That's not growth. You made a profit, but I was out of 100 USD for 5 years that I couldn't spend and it ended up costing me purchasing power.

Would you take that deal?
 

Robotoboy

Member
Oct 7, 2018
1,246
Tulsa, OK
The infinite growth argument is reductive and has become shorthand for just angrily shaking your first and grumbling 'grrr capitalism'. Growth is infinite in the same way that inflation is infinite. Many investors will be happy if your growth is higher than inflation, if you run a low risk business. The AAA games industry, with make or break big budget productions that are 5 years in development and then have to cross fingers that 1) the game is good 2) the market is good 3) timing is favorable 4) audience tastes haven't changed, is anything but low risk.

People love the abstract the market and act like this are out of whack. The COVID-years did make the economy crazy for a couple of years, but what's happening to the gaming industry isn't some crazy capitalist ploy. 100 USD from 2019 is now equal to 120 USD. If I gave you 100 USD back then to go do something and you promise me it'll be worth my while, and then today you come back and tell me that my investment has grown 10%, I still have less money than I started with. That's not growth. You made a profit, but I was out of 100 USD for 5 years that I couldn't spend and it ended up costing me purchasing power.

Would you take that deal?

Considering I typically dislike any capitalist dealings involving "investment" no.

Unchecked capitalism is a blight through and through.
 

Lightjolly

Member
Oct 30, 2019
4,697
I'm going to be a little negative here, but unless the PC shows infinite growth that consoles don't, releasing games on PC is just a short-term patch, not a definitive solution.
Solution is simple, AA and smaller budget titles need to return in force like in the ps2 era.

Enough of all these hundred of millions budget games for every single title.

Also I hope this the beginning of the end of exclusive's, Microsoft are starting to see that, Sony might too eventually as it gets harder for them to recoup the cost
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
25,000
Spain
Solution is simple, AA and smaller budget titles need to return in force like in the ps2 era.

Enough of all these hundred of millions budget games for every single title
The problem is that the public has become conditioned to AAA experiences. Many people prefer to pay an extra 20 euros for an AAA that will last 50 hours than buy an AA that will last 20 hours.
 

Madden

Member
Nov 21, 2017
225
Honestly though, trying to use daily stock market news is pointless. Yes, in theory Sony 'lost' 10 billion in market cap, but wait a few more days and it'll probably recover most if not all of it. Everyone has hot takes of 'the stock took a dive today based on this news!' but a month from the news when the stock has recovered no one goes back and rewrites it. Like, remember when Square Enix's stock "tanked and is doomed" after the FF16 and some other bad news? Hey look, the stock has gone back up and is higher year over year!

Every single day almost every company gains or loses millions/billions from their market cap even without any noteworthy news.
 

Yahsper

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,635
Considering I typically dislike any capitalist dealings involving "investment" no.

Unchecked capitalism is a blight through and through.
Feel free to start a commune, get some arable soil and grow a video game orchard in that case because video games are a luxury entertainment product entirely the child of capitalism.

edit: I realise the above comes down to the ol' "oh so you partake in society, gotcha, I'm very smart" meme, which isn't intended that way. But that meme really downplays the fact that video games are, and always have been, the product of capitalist dealings and investments and as a luxury, high cost to produce product always will be. Which you can have opinions on, but my point is that profitable != healthy business by definition and investors/shareholders wanting to do a good investment (and that growth is necessary for this, because if growth doesn't beat out inflation, you're not actually growing, just doing damage control) != "shareholders only want infinite growth". It just doesn't work that way.
 
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danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,522
Sydney
I guess the other alternative to scaling back on software development budgets is to raise the cost of the hardware further.

High end consoles are effectively subsidized hardware which companies tolerate because they make their money back on software and services.

So if the software and services are costing more to deliver and they don't want to scale any of that back, they could increase the cost of the hardware.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,550
Games are too long with too much unnecessary content, but we the audience are part of this problem.

Also way too many cutscenes. Spending more than it costs to make an actual live-action tent-pole film just to have endless cutscenes and everything being voice acted.
I'm currently struggling my way through my only replay of FF7R, and all I can wonder is "What the hell were they thinking?". I thought Xenosaga was bad with the cutscenes, then MGS4 asked me to hold its beer, and then came along the interactive movie that is FF7R.

The whole "cinematic experience" crap is one of the primary sources of the skyrocketing budgets. Since you mentioned Mass Effect: the first three games were all extremely cinematic, but they did it almost exclusively through their gameplay and scenarios. Not taking away player agency every few steps.
 

Ara63

Member
Nov 21, 2023
432
The problem is that the public has become conditioned to AAA experiences. Many people prefer to pay an extra 20 euros for an AAA that will last 50 hours than buy an AA that will last 20 hours.

Especially now that lots of people also are now comfortable sticking to playing one game for long periods of time, I could absolutely see a scenario where publishers scale their software back to AA levels, and the end result is the wider market just don't buy new games any more and stick with their existing AAA games that they see as not a regression.
 
Jun 10, 2018
9,091
How does anyone expect the console space to grow if manufacturers refuse to cut the price of hardware?

These are not priced like mass market products anymore. There is no attempt to grab the lower end of the market by anyone, (except for cut-down products like Xbox series S), and the only ones that market in any significant way toward children is Nintendo.

How can the space grow if the industry is largely ignoring the primary vectors to growth?

I know that there is disdain for games aimed primarily at kids (for some reason) in many corners of the gaming community, but do we really want gaming to be something that is only popular among a limited and aging demographic? Because it feels like that's where we're headed.
You know what the funny thing about this is?

MS and Sony fully believed at one point with the rise of mobile, they no longer had to cater to casuals and kids because eventually they would "graduate" to home consoles for more engaging experiences.

Now look at both of them, scrambling to get a piece of the mobile market because, surprise surprise, those gamers they ignored were and are fully content playing on mobile and don't see the need in buying a traditional home console.
 

Johnny Blaze

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,319
DE
Another point is that games are still too cheap (from the platform holders perspective obviously). Prices for games haven't gone up with inflation at all over the last few decades, so I'd expect a rise from 70 to 80 or 90 in the next few years.
Yup and this is the hard truth. Prices probably have to go up for AAA big budget games.

Or we get less of them and more mtx games. More early access. More deluxe editions with just some costumes etc.

Lots of the costs nowadays is labor.
 

ALXJ

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Feb 16, 2021
507
things like Helldivers 2 now and Concord later the year could help in this. I feel that sony is investing in gaas because of this -- to improve this kind of margins.

btw is this 'market first analysis' that is destroying the industry btw. Console and PC grown in the last year while mobile shrunk but the narrative is "the industry is dying", the PS5 and its games is wildly, wildly successful but the *profit* margins are "unacceptable" for market analysts.
 

Garulon

Member
Jul 22, 2020
875
I feel like Sony spent most of the PS3 gen being judged for not hitting AAA production values and critical reception, hit it, centred their entire PS4 strategy around it while cutting anything else loose, and now have this massive rod to deal with.

Like do you even need exclusive single player narrative titles when you have Sony's market share, why are they chucking profitability over the bridge in the name of market share? Same with pricing, they raised the price floor by $50 with the slim launch and nobody gave a shit lol
 
Oct 27, 2017
675
Turkey
I mean we all knew this type of situation would come up after sony nearly drained all of its first party releases in just 18 months time frame. I mean they released TLOU 2, GoT, Returnal, Ratchet, Miles Morales, Demon's Souls and I believe there would be more. Things will start to change when we'll start the second part of the generation when we will see their gangbusters and new gaas titles from acquired studios. I mean just GTA VI can sell millions of PS5's.
 

MazeHaze

Member
Nov 1, 2017
8,662
Feel free to start a commune, get some arable soil and grow a video game orchard in that case because video games are a luxury entertainment product entirely the child of capitalism.

edit: I realise the above comes down to the ol' "oh so you partake in society, gotcha, I'm very smart" meme, which isn't intended that way. But that meme really downplays the fact that video games are, and always have been, the product of capitalist dealings and investments and as a luxury, high cost to produce product always will be. Which you can have opinions on, but my point is that profitable != healthy business by definition and investors/shareholders wanting to do a good investment (and that growth is necessary for this, because if growth doesn't beat out inflation, you're not actually growing, just doing damage control) != "shareholders only want infinite growth". It just doesn't work that way.
I mean you are still literally just outlining everybody's basic problem with capitalism at it's core and why we all argue that the system is flawed, but it's like you think you are presenting new information to us. Kind of incredible really.
 

fiendcode

Member
Oct 26, 2017
25,107
The way Sony reports 3rd party digital revenue (100%) is also biting them in the ass now. It inflates their revenue figure, which does look nice, but it also contributes to slimming that tiny OM they've hacked away at with continual hardware deals and AAAA dev costs. Probably time for them to join Nintendo, Apple, Alphabet, Meta and Microsoft (on PC but not Xbox) and only report their 30% cut.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,264
Seattle
Feel free to start a commune, get some arable soil and grow a video game orchard in that case because video games are a luxury entertainment product entirely the child of capitalism.

edit: I realise the above comes down to the ol' "oh so you partake in society, gotcha, I'm very smart" meme, which isn't intended that way. But that meme really downplays the fact that video games are, and always have been, the product of capitalist dealings and investments and as a luxury, high cost to produce product always will be. Which you can have opinions on, but my point is that profitable != healthy business by definition and investors/shareholders wanting to do a good investment (and that growth is necessary for this, because if growth doesn't beat out inflation, you're not actually growing, just doing damage control) != "shareholders only want infinite growth". It just doesn't work that way.
We were making and playing games thousands of years before capitalism existed. The first video games were non-commercial toys and experiments. And the bulk of video games made today exist as non-commercial creations, given away, or sold to other game makers.
 

CenaToon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,555
Manufacturing PS5 is expensive as hell, and no, that problem wont dissapear just releasing games in PC day 1.

Sony wont go for the power route next gen, and doesnt matter if Microsoft releases a NASA console next gen. It doesnt matter if you invest billions in a powerful next console and just get a minimal benefit.
 
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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
62,157
Sony chased AAA way too strongly. It was never going to be sustainable.
 

EagleClaw

Member
Dec 31, 2018
11,422
I wonder how bad Ubisoft does with their AAAA game Skull and Bones.
Maybe they are good because the game releases on every platform.
/s
 

GulfCoastZilla

Shinra Employee
Member
Sep 13, 2022
7,332
problem is we been talking about AAAA games for so long we didn't realize that AAA games already morphed into AAAA.
 

daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,970
You know what the funny thing about this is?

MS and Sony fully believed at one point with the rise of mobile, they no longer had to cater to casuals and kids because eventually they would "graduate" to home consoles for more engaging experiences.

Now look at both of them, scrambling to get a piece of the mobile market because, surprise surprise, those gamers they ignored were and are fully content playing on mobile and don't see the need in buying a traditional home console.
There was a significant period of time that you could get a PS2 for $99 USD and that customer would go soft through bargain and used games, yes, but they still tended to pick up a few things around full price like a Madden or GTA: SA before that had a price cut. (I know because I was in retail at the time lol)

That customer has either shifted to mobile or left games entirely if mobile didn't meet their needs and I think *often* about what pushing them out to focus on bigger pockets did to games as a whole.

things like Helldivers 2 now and Concord later the year could help in this. I feel that sony is investing in gaas because of this -- to improve this kind of margins.

btw is this 'market first analysis' that is destroying the industry btw. Console and PC grown in the last year while mobile shrunk but the narrative is "the industry is dying", the PS5 and its games is wildly, wildly successful but the *profit* margins are "unacceptable" for market analysts.
The profit margins are unacceptable for a couple reasons. One is, of course, greed, but the other is literally: you need to have savings to cushion you when one of your big games is inevitably a miss and you need margin to build that cushion. Lots of posters (myself included!) miss the old PlayStation 1st party catalog but it doesn't make sense for them to do these smaller, oh we might make a few million but we also might lose a few million games when their overall margin is so low. They have to protect the margin they have and that leads to risk-averse creative demands.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,694
Looks like Sony definitely need a huge GaaS to fund all their massive single player games, otherwise we might soon see a change in strategy and we might not like it.
Not a bug fan of GaaS but considering the ever growing cost of AAA it's really needed.
 

GulfCoastZilla

Shinra Employee
Member
Sep 13, 2022
7,332
Nothing really changed with money Sony gets from COD right? It's still 30% of all sales?

At least they are not losing that money.
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
4,309
There's a lot of money being spent on stuff that 90% of players will barely notice.

And I get some of it, you need to keep improving or you find yourself in 10 years still using the same engine and all of a sudden it goes from fine to unacceptable, but I guess there's not much cost / benefit analysis being made, that will need to be made now that money is expensive.
 

Genesius

Member
Nov 2, 2018
16,349
There's a very clear way to reduce production costs and that's to downscale

Which everyone champions until they see that the combat animations are a little rough and review bomb it because "there's no excuse"
 

War95

Banned
Feb 17, 2021
4,499
There's a very clear way to reduce production costs and that's to downscale

Which everyone champions until they see that the combat animations are a little rough and review bomb it because "there's no excuse"
The infamous Sonic meme is so cool and cute until people actually has to play AA titles for real, this forum shows it again and again
 

niaobx

Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,075
Feel free to start a commune, get some arable soil and grow a video game orchard in that case because video games are a luxury entertainment product entirely the child of capitalism.

edit: I realise the above comes down to the ol' "oh so you partake in society, gotcha, I'm very smart" meme, which isn't intended that way. But that meme really downplays the fact that video games are, and always have been, the product of capitalist dealings and investments and as a luxury, high cost to produce product always will be. Which you can have opinions on, but my point is that profitable != healthy business by definition and investors/shareholders wanting to do a good investment (and that growth is necessary for this, because if growth doesn't beat out inflation, you're not actually growing, just doing damage control) != "shareholders only want infinite growth". It just doesn't work that way.

counter-point: in a perfect world where capitalism has been eradicated, we would have only the best games ever because people would be free to pursue their creative dreams

not all of them obviously, someone has to work the farms, but they wouldn't mind - why? because capitalism is dead baby and the Utopia Socialist Video Games Committee (and we have like dozens maybe even hundreds examples of great works of art being made under central planning) would make sure that when you get home, only the coolest games await you and that sounds pretty sweet to me

i am not going to be the one working at the farms though lmao fuck that
 

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,597
Indonesia
I feel like their games are selling 10+ million at the minimum, combined with good PS plus sub attach rate. And their profit margin is still that low somehow.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,556
I don't think you downscale at what you're good at, what Sony needs to do is invest in projects that can do well without a AAA budget.

Not everyone will be successful with AAA games, and I think that's ok.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,264
Seattle
The infamous Sonic meme is so cool and cute until people actually has to play AA titles for real, this forum shows it again and again
Worth saying that a ton of huge games this last year had lower production values and all sorts of associated technical issues. Just cause you have dudes here that fly into a rage over that shit, doesn't mean gamers as a whole reject games like that.
 

LinkStrikesBack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,761
Also, this shows that SIE sticking to single player narrative games would be terrible financially. As much as PS fans don't like it, Sony needs to be successful in the GAAS space. Sony having their own Fortnite/CoD Warzone that brings in billions in revenue and profits yearly will ease a lot of the pressure that's on their single player games to succeed.

Nintendo makes far more profit than Sony does and outside of brief flirts in the mobile space, which they've not made a new one of in years, haven't even shown the slightest of consideration for going gaas even with ip that it would be almost trivial to do so like Splatoon or animal crossing. Don't let them pretend that chasing infinite growth is the only way forward.