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[CNBC] AMD CEO Confirms Helping Sony & Microsoft “Build Consoles with Secret Sauce”

metalslimer

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,569
I hope we get some pared down form of RTX next gen though. Playing spiderman and seeing all the fake reflections made me wish pretty hard for it. Still some of the bad looking parts of spiderman seem to be more a casualty of not having the time or manpower to implement rather than tech limitations. If we can get some high quality npcs and animations next gen it would go a long way towards pushing the boundaries. Cyberpunk looks like a good start
 
ShiftyHermit

ShiftyHermit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
421
ethomaz said:
I don't believe that is how it works... AMD can't discover the project for the other part so they choice Sony made won't be the same choices MS made... that can end in drastically difference between the APUs like XB1 and PS4.

Of course the mid-gen refresh was more equal because MS basically changed it project to fell more like the PS4/Pro projects instead to go with the not "usual" XB1 project... but that happened because MS saw PS4 project worked better.

For a new generation neither part knows what they other is doing... so one doing things similar to other probably won't happen.
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I'm very aware it doesn't work that way, just being silly as some others were joking Sony/MS would have the same secret sauce.
 
gofreak

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,751
joesiv said:
I actually feel that Ray Tracing might be in the plan for the next Xbox (along with a cheaper streaming box I guess). If you think about the Xbox One, and even more so the Xbox One X, MS has used it as a platform to push Direct X in games. The X, they even touted it having silicon developed to run bits of Direct X 12, to reach 4K at good performance.

Direct X now supports ray tracing, and I would think they knew about it long ago, so they would have time to start developing silicon or RT cores to help accelerate this new key Direct X feature...

A bigger question, and perhaps more pertinent, would be whether they have any machine learning silicon in there, as denoising the way NV is doing it, seems to be real nice, to supplement weak ray tracing performance, or for the AA.
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Well, you can do denoising (and the rest of RT) using regular shaders. Indeed I think many of the RTX demos shown so far were using regular shader-based denoising. Being able to offload that to other hardware would be nice, but I'm not sure it's really the performance intensive part of the equation.

I'm sure the next Xbox will support the DirectX RT API, with or without specific hardware accelerating it. I think the next consoles should be powerful enough to apply ray tracing at certain levels of scene complexity, for certain techniques, at 1080p/30hz at least, even if they don't sport specialised accelerators. So that's a good enough reason to include API or library support for it (ditto for Sony in their APIs). Devs could roll their own solutions without that support, but it would be nice to have something to ease implementation.
 
Nostremitus

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,782
Alabama
Hermii said:
Yep. There will be a zen cpu and navi gpu in both of them. Probably GDDR6 in both of them.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see HBM2 as opposed to GDDR6. HBM takes up less space, uses less power, and has slightly lower latency than GDDR6. Plus AMD could want to ramp HBM production to lower cost.

Edit: and having HBM2 on die could theoretically greatly improve the performance of the infinity fabric if that's the route they are taking.
 
Pablo Mesa

Pablo Mesa

Banned
Nov 23, 2017
6,878
low-G said:
Are MS's IPs that strong?
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lol no, not even Sony own IPs are what moves hardware by bulks, if Madden, Fifa, CoD, BF, Ass Creed, etc etc etc move to new gens, people will move even if the graphics leap is not WOW. hell 7th gen from 8th gen leap is already being the "weakest" on from on gen to another,

Personally I wont care for less "graphics" if the new power is used for better frame rate.
 
jpbonadio

jpbonadio

Member
Nov 8, 2017
895
Lant_War said:
Just the scale of the city. A city that big with that graphics would've been completely unthinkable like three years ago (there was GTA V, but it didn't look as good as Spidey)

It just made me realize how good games are going to look in the next gen, assuming we get a similar jump in terms of graphics.
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Yeah, Spider-man graphics truly is at a level I didn't thought was possible this gen. The scale of the city with that incredible lighting and huge amount of details are really something ahead of this gen standards.

Can't even imagine how crazy a 1:1 scaled Manhattan on Spider-Man 2 will look on the PS5.

Until there I hope to have my new home theater room with 200" screen and a 4K/HDR/WCG laser projector.
 
Sid

Sid

Banned
Mar 28, 2018
3,755
thuway said:
I wonder who will be more customized. Microsoft's hardware team seems very adamant on being the most powerful, however, Mark Cerny is also a pretty smart person, who no doubt will have some pretty significant requests. It also probably worth mentioning that Cerny worked on Spider-Man as producer most recently, so I'm sure he has an idea of what next-gen hardware should look like.
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What does that have to do with next gen hardware?
 
Marano

Marano

Member
Mar 30, 2018
4,893
Rio de Janeiro
jpbonadio said:
Yeah, Spider-man graphics truly is at a level I didn't thought was possible this gen. The scale of the city with that incredible lighting and huge amount of details are really something ahead of this gen standards.

Can't even imagine how crazy a 1:1 scaled Manhattan on Spider-Man 2 will look on the PS5.

Until there I hope to have my new home theater room with 200" screen and a 4K/HDR/WCG laser projector.
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A 1:1 scaled Manhattan might just be impossible, I'm curious, I'd like to know from the people in the know here if that is actually possible?
 
Bung Hole

Bung Hole

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
2,169
Auckland, New Zealand
Marano said:
A 1:1 scaled Manhattan might just be impossible, I'm curious, I'd like to know from the people in the know here if that is actually possible?
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You need a good cpu to fill the game world with as many npcs as possible if you want a new York that looks and feels alive. The next gen consoles stand a good chance of replicating such a scenario if the rumoured cpu bump turns out to be true.
 
Gemüsepizza

Gemüsepizza

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,541
Marano said:
A 1:1 scaled Manhattan might just be impossible, I'm curious, I'd like to know from the people in the know here if that is actually possible?
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The limiting factor here is mostly dev resources, not necessarily hardware power. It takes hundreds of people to create modern game worlds and assets like textures and stuff. That's why they are already using tools which procedurally create big parts of those game worlds. But if you want to create a true 1:1 copy of an existing world, you have to do a lot of it manually, which is even more time-consuming.

Edit: I think Spider-Man is already a game with a nice game world, obviously they can make it bigger and more impressive on PS5, but if I had to guess I'd mostly expect improvements regarding lighting and maybe 60fps.
 
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KOHIPEET

KOHIPEET

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
You all got it wrong. Sony's secret sauce will obviously be unprecedented levels of stability.
 
RevengeTaken

RevengeTaken

Banned
Aug 12, 2018
1,711
What kind of secret sauce we can expect in PS5? something like nvidia's RTX to render semi ray tracing lighting, dGPU or some kind of teraflops accelerator?
 
gofreak

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,751
Sid said:
I would say that if he was a developer but you said he was the producer....
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True, but he's also technically very on top of things on the software side also as well as hardware. He was the guy who toured Kojima through WWS technology while they were trying to figure out how they could help him. He seems to be very plugged into how software is using hardware, which is a big part of his job if he's going to continue designing more of it.

It's also interesting to note also that while Cerny was the main face of PS hardware development with PS4, there were other interesting people in the mix in PS4's HW design, including members from ICE (the Naughty Dog WWS tech team...they should perhaps consider changing their name :| ). They got a lot of their best game software tech people wired into the process.

I imagine being able to tap that kind of internal talent helps a lot when trying to forecast what's going to be important or meaningfully beneficial in a future cycle of software. It definitely steered them toward probably what was as close to an optimal design as they could have gotten with PS4, within the constraints of cost and available amd tech, so I've hopes that PS5's design is in safe hands.
 
RudeBoy

RudeBoy

Banned
May 8, 2018
254
Gemüsepizza said:
The limiting factor here is mostly dev resources, not necessarily hardware power.
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This is totally true. The time where hardware was defining graphics is over. That's PS360 time. Even today, the best assets win over raw computational power. This trend will become even more prominent with the next systems.
 
DrDeckard

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
thuway said:
There's no better way of understanding the limitations of current gen hardware and what needs to be addressed than actually being in the trenches and working on a cutting edge game.
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Was Mark Cerny involved with the playstation pro? as I don't think it's a very efficient design. it's noisy and feels cheap. I always put Sony as a leader in the hardware space but the Xbox one x design from top to bottom shows that MS can exceed Sony's console design / aesthetic and performance by a large margin. Something I didn't personally expect.
 
BitsandBytes

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
gofreak said:
True, but he's also technically very on top of things on the software side also as well as hardware. He was the guy who toured Kojima through WWS technology while they were trying to figure out how they could help him. He seems to be very plugged into how software is using hardware, which is a big part of his job if he's going to continue designing more of it.

It's also interesting to note also that while Cerny was the main face of PS hardware development with PS4, there were other interesting people in the mix in PS4's HW design, including members from ICE (the Naughty Dog WWS tech team...they should perhaps consider changing their name :| ). They got a lot of their best game software tech people wired into the process.

I imagine being able to tap that kind of internal talent helps a lot when trying to forecast what's going to be important or meaningfully beneficial in a future cycle of software. It definitely steered them toward probably what was as close to an optimal design as they could have gotten with PS4, within the constraints of cost and available amd tech, so I've hopes that PS5's design is in safe hands.
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As always a great post that says a lot of things I think/wonder about but don't know how to articulate, gofreak. The secret sauce in PS5 could be really tasty this time round.
 
Gingerbread Man

Gingerbread Man

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
549
The only way Microsoft can truly jump leap Sony is coming out with some new graphics software that makes games prettier and visually more impressive. Sony and Microsoft are going to be selling their systems at roughly the same price, that limits your options on what you can do on the hardware side. Microsoft would have to accept a loss to beat Sony and not sure they are going to do that.
 
RudeBoy

RudeBoy

Banned
May 8, 2018
254
DrDeckard said:
Was Mark Cerny involved with the playstation pro? as I don't think it's a very efficient design. it's noisy and feels cheap. I always put Sony as a leader in the hardware space but the Xbox one x design from top to bottom shows that MS can exceed Sony's console design / aesthetic and performance by a large margin. Something I didn't personally expect.
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There is a huge difference between designing a product (PlayStation 4, PS+, etc) and designing a system (GNM, Processor IPs, etc). Mark Cerny is doing the latter and has no influence on whether the PlayStation is noisy or quiet.
 
DrDeckard

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
RudeBoy said:
There is a huge difference between designing a product (PlayStation 4, PS+, etc) and designing a system (GNM, Processor IPs, etc). Mark Cerny is doing the latter and has no influence on whether the PlayStation is noisy or quiet.
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but imo the pro is a badly designed product, it is not efficient, it has bottle necks which allows the well designed Xbox one X to steam roll it in performance. (twice the performance on multiple games)

Just to add, I think they did amazing job with the playstation 4...but the pro just seemed to be a boost the cpu a bit and double the GPU cores. which caused bottleneck issues.
 
DrDeckard

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
RudeBoy said:
And these bottlenecks are...?
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I could be wrong but I heard that the systems set up causes bottle necks with Ram etc? I'm sure this is what I have read. THe xbox one x is only 40 percent more powerful on paper but due to the bottle necks on the pro it can perform twice as well as the pro in a lot of scenarios.

Microsoft needs to ensure that they are considerably more powerful than Sony next gen, or they will lose more market share.
 
Gamer17

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
I can guarantee you if they come up around the same time ,which they will , they will be within 10% of each other which in terms of 4k gaming means no difference in real world .

Only if one decides to delay or go more expensive is where we see more than 10% difference.

You can qoute me in 18 months :)
 
Gamer17

Gamer17

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,399
DrDeckard said:
I could be wrong but I heard that the systems set up causes bottle necks with Ram etc? I'm sure this is what I have read. THe xbox one x is only 40 percent more powerful on paper but due to the bottle necks on the pro it can perform twice as well as the pro in a lot of scenarios.

Microsoft needs to ensure that they are considerably more powerful than Sony next gen, or they will lose more market share.
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U do realize xb1x came out a year later and 100 $ more expensive ? It's simple hardware stuff. No one did anything Earth shattering .if anything Ms changed xb1x to be more inline with PS4 design wise than original x1 .got rid of esrm ram , same gpu , same cpu.so I don't understand where this amazing design we talk about come from when it comes to xb1x? They used a better cooling system(higher clocks ) and added the ram and charged you 100$ additional for it a year later .
 
horkrux

horkrux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,775
gofreak said:
Every modern GPU can do raytracing. You don't necessarily need any specialised hardware - it can improve performance, but if you have the alu power, you can reach a certain level without it. For reference, the EA Pica GDC demo was running at 1080p/60hz on a TitanV (Volta, no RT cores) . If next-gen consoles come in at a ballpark around half that GPU (e.g. 1080Ti levels), then maybe that's a ballpark you can look at for 1080p/30hz - and that was using ray tracing for several effects, using it for fewer might be more feasible again in a wider variety of titles and/or on less powerful hardware. I think using RT even for just a couple of the techniques involved could be a nice win (e.g. diffiuse GI and reflections).
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three
 
RudeBoy

RudeBoy

Banned
May 8, 2018
254
The PlayStation low-level development environment is faster than what Microsoft has to offer for Xbox. Don't ignore this fact when comparing X1X and PS4Pro.

PS4 Pro also has FP16 capability. X1X not.

Microsoft has more raw power, but Sony has the better tech right now.
 
DrDeckard

DrDeckard

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,109
UK
Gamer17 said:
U do realize xb1x came out a year later and 100 $ more expensive ? It's simple hardware stuff. No one did anything Earth shattering .if anything Ms changed xb1x to be more inline with PS4 design wise than original x1 .got rid of esrm ram , same gpu , same cpu.so I don't understand where this amazing design we talk about come from when it comes to xb1x? They used a better cooling system(higher clocks ) and added the ram and charged you 100$ additional for it a year later .
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They managed to clock the same gpu at higher than anyone else has, added the ram that the system needed created custom made motherboard tweaks for every piece of silicone. in a box thats no bigger than the xbox one s. How is the XBox one X anything but a design triumph?

It performs better than the competition by twice as much and cost's one hundred dollars more. You act like that the reason it's better is because it's one year later and 100 dollars more, choosing to ignore all of the amazing design choices. you even say it's simple hardware stuff, what does that mean? they didn't go with any new hardware.
 
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