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Perhaps, but Naruto is in and of itself an anime trope.
You've truly lost when the writers are like "We were hoping people would just forget about this thing"
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Characters Who Writers Want You To Sympathize With/Root For (and fail)
- Thread starter Z-Beat
- Start date
I know a lot of people felt her heel turn at the end came out of nowhere but I always found her character to be very arrogant, imperious and potentially as dangerous as her bloodline suggested. I liked the character but never felt she was 100% on the right side and I think there are plenty of clues to suggest this throughout the series.
Well, I mean, his decision to take the Ring to Mordor is a selfless act that places him in dire straights repeatedly.
The both of 'em. Barry's a stupid, petulant god who gets upset when the world doesn't revolve around him, and Iris has a weird, unearned sense of self-importance and a penchant for making impetuous, terrible decisions.
The writers desperately want you to sympathize with them, but 90% of the time when things go wrong my gut response is just "well, what did you expect?"
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My wife is currently re-watching Outlander, and she encouraged me to watch it with her, with me knowing very little about it outside of the most basic premise.
Granted, I'm not watching it as actively as I could be. Plenty of phone browsing and such, but I'm 2.5 seasons in, and I'm not feeling Claire or Jaime really.
Jaime more from a writing style standpoint. It's just because he's too perfect. He's good at everything. Everyone wants to have sex with him. He's overly badass, but also entirely honorable and in touch with everyone more than they are with themselves. He's rubbing elbows with and outsmarting every military and historical higher up he crosses. He's the best chess player in the world. He's unusually progressive for what you'd expect from an 18th century highlander. He can adapt even to supernatural surprises in a matter of minutes. And the amount of screentime his ass (literally his ass) gets is humorous. His only flaws that I can remember have been that he had suicidal thoughts for a couple of weeks following a traumatic event and that he loves Claire so much.
Claire more because some of her actions seem self-centered and negative. When Jaime was recovering from the event talked about earlier she demanded that he tell her every detail about it multiple times. I get that it's healthy to talk about things, but what an aggressive way to deal with that. Then there's her glossing over Geiliss's actions. And everything with Frank seems horrible. A character in a recent episode finally called her out on her treatment of Frank. Maybe it will go somewhere.
I'll also back Kratos. A lot of it I could move on from with "Eh, the gods had it coming." But his senseless slaughter of innocent humans is lousy Like, I get that the sailor always getting screwed over by Kratos is a gag, but it actually sucks from a character standpoint. But his using Poseidon's sex slave to hold open a door in GoW3 was the worst. One of the most senselessly cruel things a game has ever made me do, and it was to a sex slave.
Granted, I'm not watching it as actively as I could be. Plenty of phone browsing and such, but I'm 2.5 seasons in, and I'm not feeling Claire or Jaime really.
Jaime more from a writing style standpoint. It's just because he's too perfect. He's good at everything. Everyone wants to have sex with him. He's overly badass, but also entirely honorable and in touch with everyone more than they are with themselves. He's rubbing elbows with and outsmarting every military and historical higher up he crosses. He's the best chess player in the world. He's unusually progressive for what you'd expect from an 18th century highlander. He can adapt even to supernatural surprises in a matter of minutes. And the amount of screentime his ass (literally his ass) gets is humorous. His only flaws that I can remember have been that he had suicidal thoughts for a couple of weeks following a traumatic event and that he loves Claire so much.
Claire more because some of her actions seem self-centered and negative. When Jaime was recovering from the event talked about earlier she demanded that he tell her every detail about it multiple times. I get that it's healthy to talk about things, but what an aggressive way to deal with that. Then there's her glossing over Geiliss's actions. And everything with Frank seems horrible. A character in a recent episode finally called her out on her treatment of Frank. Maybe it will go somewhere.
I'll also back Kratos. A lot of it I could move on from with "Eh, the gods had it coming." But his senseless slaughter of innocent humans is lousy Like, I get that the sailor always getting screwed over by Kratos is a gag, but it actually sucks from a character standpoint. But his using Poseidon's sex slave to hold open a door in GoW3 was the worst. One of the most senselessly cruel things a game has ever made me do, and it was to a sex slave.
yes but he keeps on all the time,sam was always there but just gets on with it.
i honestly had to power my way through his sections of the books purely because of frodo.
The both of 'em. Barry's a stupid, petulant god who gets upset when the world doesn't revolve around him, and Iris has a weird, unearned sense of self-importance and a penchant for making impetuous, terrible decisions.
The writers desperately want you to sympathize with them, but 90% of the time when things go wrong my gut response is just "well, what did you expect?"
Mirror Iris is such an improvement over the original. Mirror Barry must be a genius.
For me its Bakugo Katsuki for current on going mangas. Like jesus what a creators pet he has become.
He was a big bully who was doing things to redeem himself but the author keeps throwing him massive bones and avoiding giving moments of losses except as in joke form. (1st time Uraraka grabbed the fake nuke and wins the team battle because Deku was the sacrificial horse and 2nd time was because he was an egotistic asshole that can't talk to people and failed the test due to that)
Literally the kid has only "lost" those 2 times in the entire manga. He didn't even get beaten up by Mirio when he plowed through Class 1-A and even perfected the enemy team in Class A vs Class B fight vs a girl recommended student because fuck you Horikoshi, get off the Bakugo dick and fucking over your women characters.
Deku has stockholm's syndrome with Bakugo I swear, I would laugh if it wasn't so bad and how recently the author changed their relationship to buddy buddy out of the blue and used that as an excuse to have Bakugo beat up Deku for comedy effects which is rather tone deaf considering how much bullying he did to Deku.
Then he even gets a main part in the new BNHA movie 2 which I won't spoil but its dumb as shit imo.
I understand about duo protagonists but man this is getting worse than Naruto about it by now. I don't wanna root for a kid that is multi talented and is given the flimsy excuse that he is trying hard when he basically is given the tools he needs at his convenience. Need a drummer who is the soul of the band? Its Bakugo!
Need a team leader? Bakugo
Cool moments to highlight how great you are? Bakugo repeatedly given moments to shine and how great he is at X topic.
Even tries to play the damn sympathy card that "I killed the symbol of peace" and cry. Like please son, that was All for One and All Might would have tried just as hard to save anyone else that was captured like you were and don't be conceited that you were the reason he had to stop being All Might.
He was a big bully who was doing things to redeem himself but the author keeps throwing him massive bones and avoiding giving moments of losses except as in joke form. (1st time Uraraka grabbed the fake nuke and wins the team battle because Deku was the sacrificial horse and 2nd time was because he was an egotistic asshole that can't talk to people and failed the test due to that)
Literally the kid has only "lost" those 2 times in the entire manga. He didn't even get beaten up by Mirio when he plowed through Class 1-A and even perfected the enemy team in Class A vs Class B fight vs a girl recommended student because fuck you Horikoshi, get off the Bakugo dick and fucking over your women characters.
Deku has stockholm's syndrome with Bakugo I swear, I would laugh if it wasn't so bad and how recently the author changed their relationship to buddy buddy out of the blue and used that as an excuse to have Bakugo beat up Deku for comedy effects which is rather tone deaf considering how much bullying he did to Deku.
Then he even gets a main part in the new BNHA movie 2 which I won't spoil but its dumb as shit imo.
I understand about duo protagonists but man this is getting worse than Naruto about it by now. I don't wanna root for a kid that is multi talented and is given the flimsy excuse that he is trying hard when he basically is given the tools he needs at his convenience. Need a drummer who is the soul of the band? Its Bakugo!
Need a team leader? Bakugo
Cool moments to highlight how great you are? Bakugo repeatedly given moments to shine and how great he is at X topic.
Even tries to play the damn sympathy card that "I killed the symbol of peace" and cry. Like please son, that was All for One and All Might would have tried just as hard to save anyone else that was captured like you were and don't be conceited that you were the reason he had to stop being All Might.
Twelve had a similar crisis at the end of his run. I think the main issue was that over time, the Doctor was getting burned out on the concept of regenerating - Ten freaks out, then Eleven makes peace with his oncoming death only to have the Time Lords swoop in and fix his regenerations at the last second. Then all of the trauma he experiences as Twelve makes him just tired of living in general and he would rather just die completely than regenerate again.
Basically all the Doctors have vanity issues but Ten's was the worst of it.
Call it a technicality if you must, but that's still fair game within the terms of their agreement. Kratos assumed his family was safe? I feel that's on him. He wanted to be a slave if only he could be saved from the big bad barbarian - that was his only condition. Why would he think that he could dictate any terms after the fact? If nothing else, his sheer stupidity in not understanding what slavery is ought to be acknowledged.
But fine, he was desperate.
But I want to emphasis how much better it would have been if him lying about Ares was treated as an actual narrative point instead of blithely accepted at face value - Remember how the only time you see Kratos wife and child is a disoriented flashback where they tell him he's an insane fuck and are just begging him to stop murdering people? One of the reasons I never bought into Kratos as a character is that I literally could not believe that this fucking psychopath could possibly have a meaningful, respectful relationship in his life. He's a blood crazed psycho fuck, any wife he had would be abused the moment she did anything that triggered his rage. And even in his memories, that's actually the only way we see her, terrified and fearful for herself and her child. But again, Kratos verbally says he loved his wife, and somehow everyone just buys it.
GoW3 does that thing sequels do where they explain a previous issue, but then make it worse.
The Gods of GoW1 are actually fairly decent dieties. Ares is implied to be mistreated by Zeus because Athena is his favorite, and that may or may not be true, who knows. But the reason that the gods can't just go down and stop Ares himself is because there's some cosmic rule that prevents gods from directly fighting each other. It's why Ares ais attacking Athens, not Athena herself. Hence the need for Kratos as a middle man. And they're pretty much 100% concerned with the lives of mortals here. Their framework is that of a rescue team, giving Kratos the tools he needs to get past the trials he has to to get what he needs to kill Ares. Even the fact that Athena "tricked" Kratos is imo overplayed. It's not like they don't take away his nightmares out of spite but that's because it's one thing they can't do and then they gave him Godhood as consolation. So basically, they were in a desperate situation where they told Kratos what he needed to hear to save as many lives as possible, and when they couldn't deliver, they gave him literally the best gift they could. And again, I do not believe for a second that a character like Kratos wouldn't rather revel in power for a second over getting his wife and kid back from Hades.
Anywho, GoW2 comes around and Zeus is just suddenly an asshole and attacks Kratos and that whole plot happens.
Then GoW3 comes out and it's not just Zeus that's an asshole now, everyone is. Most notably, Aphrodite, who was as compassionate as you'd expect the Goddess of Love to be and very concerned about Athens burning, was just turned into a hedonist who didn't care about Olympus burning outside her door lol. Except wait! They have an explanation for this sudden change for the gods. Kratos released FEAR from Pandora's box, which changed all the gods into an asshole! So, Kratos isn't so much getting revenge for a betrayal, he's taking his rage out on people who were effectively drugged into unnatural feelings of paranoia and hostility.
Under this framing, Zeus didn't really, truly betray Kratos, he was just on a really bad, unending acid trip, which he initiated after he told Kratos to unleash Pandora's box, which is where he sealed the evils of the world, and apparently just forgot about at the time he ordered Kratos to open it to kill Ares. This story, man, lol. You think that right before Kratos opened it in the finale of GoW, Zeus was like "Wait....oh shit, no, that's where I put the evils of the world, fuuuuuuuuuu......"
This clown, Goro Akechi, from Persona 5. Some people actually sympathize with this fool but I can't stand him. Murders the father of one of your companions, tries to expose and murder the Phantom Thieves, and does a bunch of other stuff behind the scenes. His reason? He just wanted to be acknowledged by his deadbeat dad.
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I'd argue humanizing =/= sympathizing. Showing he's not a complete sociopath doesn't mean they want you to empathize with him. If anything it's just suppose to always keep your on the edge regarding "Will he let his urges get the better of him or not?" because they show you that he does have moments of not being a complete sociopath.
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Even if his family WASN'T there, he was totally cool with slaughtering all the families who WERE there
Aquaman from Aquaman.
He's an asshole and I really would have preferred Worm winning in the end.
He's an asshole and I really would have preferred Worm winning in the end.
Something I've seen people point out is that at least in modern Doctor Who, the times that the Doctor struggles with their regeneration have been when they don't have a companion whereas they are either accept or put on a strong face when the companions are present
Same. And the show wanted me not to sympathize with Hercules who was on a mission to kill Nazis. No thank you.
Man, I hate this dipshit so much.
This clown, Goro Akechi, from Persona 5. Some people actually sympathize with this fool but I can't stand him. Murders the father of one of your companions, tries to expose and murder the Phantom Thieves, and does a bunch of other stuff behind the scenes. His reason? He just wanted to be acknowledged by his deadbeat dad.
Yup. Even the Doctor doesn't like to "die" alone. Well, except the War Doctor - he was fine with it.
Skyler from breaking bad seems to be an interesting Rorschach test; some people blame the hate she received during the airtime on sexism...how can you root against someone suffering by being married to someone vile?
Imho, the series introduced her as a bored spouse half checked out of the marriage (to build part of the motivation to make him say 'fuck it' and cook meth) so when she was going through all that shit if you remember the earlier episodes it was hard to find sympathy even though she was married to one of tv's great villains.
Imho, the series introduced her as a bored spouse half checked out of the marriage (to build part of the motivation to make him say 'fuck it' and cook meth) so when she was going through all that shit if you remember the earlier episodes it was hard to find sympathy even though she was married to one of tv's great villains.
That annoying little clone girl from Fallen Kingdom who lets dinosaurs out so that they can murder all sorts of innocent people.
Fuck that kid and fuck that movie.
Fuck that kid and fuck that movie.
I always felt bad for Skyler. She makes some poor choices but she also finds herself entrenched in an unthinkable scenario with a man who she clearly loved and trusted for many years.
Not only that, she literally grows to fear him after learning what he's capable of.
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My problem with Skyler is that she inhibited the plot. I don't care about their weird marriage problems I want to see the meth, damn it!
Not quite sure what you mean by that but yeah, Sasuke absolutely does make moves to try and make up for what he did even if its something set as an epilogue leading into Boruto. If we are to compare Riku and Sasuke, that's something they did both do (basically work from the shadows while supporting their rival and trying to redeem themselves.)
June in The Handmaid's Tale. It starts off okay, but eventually hits a point where she's continually doing such reckless, stupid things that you're hoping she finally gets punished for it.
I loved the first two seasons.
I kind of dropped out in the 3rd, it just stopped being fun.
Sounds like the show didn't recover.
through the whole movie I was looking for a reason to care about this kid
nope, never happened
the second he met the girl gelfling I was like, "he's just irrelevant, why not make the movie about her?"
I agree Bakugo is a creators pet and needs a huge L. When people dislike him, they are shown in the wrong and don't understand him
Man, he was backsliding earlier in the story before the tragic backstory reveal but yeah, the tragic backstory reveal was the crowing moment of "You can't be serious, you think this makes him more sympathetic?" Shame, I actually liked the character's role in the story well enough until the deluge of twists.
It did feel like the character was flawed by design enough that I could presume it was a narrator thing. But book 2 gave such offputting power fantasy vibes that it broke the illusion. Can't explain sex ninjas and legendary magic training with unreliable narrator.
Mark Brandanewicz, from Parks & Rec, was kinda sorta modeled after Jim on the Office. An affable, "Likable" Straight-man who was sarcastic and dry, who was supposed to be an island of "normal" in the crazy town of Pawnee. But he's just so immensely unlikable. Him and his relationship with Ann Perkins, another unlikely character, is just 100% banter in all scenes, and it's so hard to watch for me.
(Edit: Is this an apocryphal story? This is what I always heard about MArk but I was researching it to make sure I'm right and one article said he was supposed to be less likable, but then people liked him in the pilot episodes so they tried to make him more likeable..... Is that true? What do I believe?)
Damn yeah reading the God of War stuff reminds me of how much I hated Kratos and his stupid story in the old games. That people actually found him sympathetic in those old games blows my mind lol. It's a miracle the new one manages to somewhat salvage his character (although I'd prefer a new protagonist, honestly).
I feel like Lara Croft from the first game in the reboot series would be a lot easier to sympathize with if the game didn't beat you over the head so hard trying to make you sympathize with her.
I get that in the first game she's out of her element, but she's constantly making scared and hurt noises whenever she's not mass murdering people in-game. It gets tiring pretty much immediately, and starts having the opposite effect.
I get that in the first game she's out of her element, but she's constantly making scared and hurt noises whenever she's not mass murdering people in-game. It gets tiring pretty much immediately, and starts having the opposite effect.
Why am I supposed to root for this abusive fuckwit and heavily implied rapist who tortured his own family for decades because he suddenly decided one day he wants to be a good father.
Say what you want about Bakugou, and I'm not going to defend the shitty slapstick or Deku being buddy-buddy with him so fast, but, like, he's a 16 year-old kid with genuine anger and anxiety issues who never got the help he needed because he was talented and smart so the adults around him ignored his mental health and reenforced his problematic behaviour. Which is...kind of what happens in real life. And, while you might not sympathize with that, it at least makes logical sense to rehabilitate at-risk youth through positive reinforcement rather than punishing them for being a dick in middle school.
Endeavour is much more of a spotlight stealing creator's pet. Deku growth as a character has been completely sidelined since the Gentle arc outside a pointless power-up just so the manga can focus on Endeavour, his family, and Shouto having zero personality outside his relationship to him.
When people say Daenerys' heel-turn came out of nowhere they don't mean that they were blindsided by it, they mean that the writing didn't support her extreme shift happening so quickly.
And it doesn't. The supporting Dany characters, all loyalists to a fault, basically cause her to go mad by suddenly assuming she will go mad and doing everything they can to make sure she does by plotting against her. Even so, it's a big leap from being willing to crucify slavers to burning innocent civilians.
That's why he made Getaway quote Trump and never focused on the crew that were supposedly also reasonable about it in any capacity. Or had Rodimus look at the camera and basically say people who didn't forgive Megatron didn't understand shades of gray.
Already seeing lots of Bakugo mentions which is well deserved, that shit needs to be taken down a notch by Mineta. That would be all kinds of glorious.
Dawn from Buffy is one who bugged me massively. Especially in the episode 'Empty Places'. Kick Buffy out of her own fucking house!? After she's saved your ass countless times!?
Actually, fuck all the characters in Buffy in that episode.
Dawn from Buffy is one who bugged me massively. Especially in the episode 'Empty Places'. Kick Buffy out of her own fucking house!? After she's saved your ass countless times!?
Actually, fuck all the characters in Buffy in that episode.
Rumple in Once Upon a Time is one of the most frustrating characters I've ever encountered.
Yes, he's mostly a villain, but the lengths he goes to are insane. He's killed hundreds, if not thousands. He's ruined the lives of hundreds. He's actively backstabbing his own friends and family constantly. He's a manipulative coward who cons his way into a dishonest, toxic marriage. He's always out for himself...
... Which is why it's frustrating that the main heroes KEEP GIVING HIM ANOTHER CHANCE, despite hundreds of years of history, both old and VERY recent, saying he really doesn't deserve it. The show paints him as an antagonist, but when it tries to make us sympathize with him time and again - his bad father, his strained marriage, his lost child, etc. - it never once feels like it succeeds at making the audience root for him - either to succeed or be redeemed.
I haven't finished the series, but I think I'm in the final season and he's still just as awful as he's always been, despite sad or sentimental music playing whenever he talks up wanting to reform.
Honestly, I wish they'd just let me love to hate him, because it never makes me hate to love him.
oh you have no fucking idea how low this show sank below the surface before blowing up the mud pit it was sinking into, spewing mud everywhere