Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,985
So, the review thread for The Invisible Man got me thinking about Gone Girl again, and how there are people who think Nick is about 50% to blame for what happened, which, to me is like saying the assistant is 50% to blame for getting eaten by the Mosasaurus because she wasn't a good person. This spun off into me thinking about characters that writers want want you to sympathize with or like, only for the general public to respond with "Are you insane?!" and I wanted to know what characters from fiction you think fit this bill

To name off a few of varying degrees of "What? No."

Mrs. Ganush from Drag Me to Hell. So after getting into financial trouble and being denied a third loan from the bank, Mrs. Ganush opts to condemn the woman who denied her a loan to an eternity in Hell. Seems like a bit of an overreaction, but I did find out that we were actually supposed to sympathize more with her than the main character. They try to set up the main character as screwing over this poor old woman just to get ahead at her job, but she never does anything that doesn't make a ton of sense. She mentions that the bank's already given her two loans already and even after that asks her boss if there's anything they can do. Her boss inevitably leaves it up to her but even if there was nothing to gain from her denying the loan, realistically it makes sense that she'd say no. And it's not like the loan is her only option. The main character tells her that she should ask her family for help, but Ganush's own stupid-ass pride prevents her from doing so (but not from getting on her knees in the middle of a crowded bank to beg, apparently). Prior to this, Mrs. Ganush isn't exactly shown to be the nicest old lady. She's prideful, rude, and straight up attempts to attack the main character after making a scene didn't work.

Sasuke from Naruto. I'll just leave this here
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And Warren from Life is Strange. First things first, I don't really like Chloe either. She's not a great person, but at least I get it. Warren...he kinda feels like a weird-ass afterthought in this game. It's clear that he wants to set HIMSELF up as a love interest for you and he's trying really hard to do so, but that's kinda the problem. At no point does Warren seem like a legit character to pick with your options. He's just kinda there, orbiting around you at all times (including at very creepy times). If he was supposed to be the stereotypical "nerd who gets the guy/girl at the end" they leaned into it far to much with the nerd part and nothing else.

Edit: Ah fuck I forgot

EVERYONE IN RENT

Oh wow, how could I forget this one?


Leatherface in Texas Chainsaw 3D
latest


So after the events of the first movie, an obviously very pissed off mob of people with guns and the cops show up at the Sawyer house to go murder the cannibals. The single cop who showed up tries to talk the mob down but it's hard to talk down a mob of angry Texans with guns in the 1970s with a 2nd mob of angry cannibals with guns pointing their guns back at them. A shootout ensues, and this becomes the primary focal point for why we are supposed to sympathize with and root for Leatherface. LEATHERFACE. Apparently to the writers cannibal murderer > vigilante justice. So anyway even the main character roots for Leatherface, and this is well after he's murdered all of her friends AND her boyfriend and almost murdered her but didn't because he found out they were related. Yay?

Imma add this to the OP because I don't think anything's beating it
 
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ace3skoot

Member
Dec 3, 2018
815
sasuke came to mind for me as well, i mean seriously fuck that guy, naruto and especially sakura should want nothing to do with him, he literally tried to murder them both
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
And Warren from Life is Strange. First things first, I don't really like Chloe either. She's not a great person, but at least I get it. Warren...he kinda feels like a weird-ass afterthought in this game. It's clear that he wants to set HIMSELF up as a love interest for you and he's trying really hard to do so, but that's kinda the problem. At no point does Warren seem like a legit character to pick with your options. He's just kinda there, orbiting around you at all times (including at very creepy times). If he was supposed to be the stereotypical "nerd who gets the guy/girl at the end" they leaned into it far to much with the nerd part and nothing else.

No, I think that was the point. You're not supposed to like the guy. Are you familiar with the game Kindness Coins?
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
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These two fuckers from season 1 of The Man in the High Castle.

She completely ruins her boyfriend's life because she's horny for the nazi spy. The entire season is nonstop selfish acts from those two and then it ends with the showrunners thinking I'd be sympathetic for them and would wish to see them succeed in season 2. No, fuck them. They're awful people.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
And Warren from Life is Strange. First things first, I don't really like Chloe either. She's not a great person, but at least I get it. Warren...he kinda feels like a weird-ass afterthought in this game. It's clear that he wants to set HIMSELF up as a love interest for you and he's trying really hard to do so, but that's kinda the problem. At no point does Warren seem like a legit character to pick with your options. He's just kinda there, orbiting around you at all times (including at very creepy times). If he was supposed to be the stereotypical "nerd who gets the guy/girl at the end" they leaned into it far to much with the nerd part and nothing else.

I don't think he was ever suppose to be the love interest at all. Some days ago someone posted a screenshot where I noticed Warren stalking Max. He even flees when you notice him.

Other things why he is a creep (and I think people are suppose to notice)

He constantly wants to take Max to far away places / on long rides, plus he's really pushing her to go out with him
He placed a GPS on Max (talk to Brooke in Episode 2, Science class).
He dumps Brooke to go to the movies with Max and he does this right in front of her. So not only does he 'date' other girls but he's also very disrespectful to women.
Most of his actons/comments, like the 'free hug', his talk about sex when you first meet him near his car in Ep 1 (requires certain dialogue branches) etc. seem to suggest that he just wants to bang Max. If you tell him that he's sensitive, he says: "Sensitive usually means: won't be having sex with you.". That's literally the first conversation you have with him in this game. Surely, there must be a reason why the developers of this game are dropping all these hints.

Apart from Max and Brooke, he's also involved with Alyssa. He's holding her when Kate is about to jump (see:
http://dontnodentertainment.wikia.com/wiki/File:Warren_and_Alyssa.png
) and in the science lab there's a drawing of a heart with the text "Warren + Alyssa 2013". While this could simply mean that Alyssa has a crush on Warren, it remains suspicious how Warren is involved with so many girls at Blackwell.

He's into incredibly disgusting/creepy films. I don't remember the exact title but one of the movies he really liked is all about animal violence. He found this 'funny'.
He keeps pointing out that Max 'owes' him and that he's her superhero.
He has a picture of him&Max in his locker at the swimming pool. Max is clearly surprised by this.
He lies by telling Max that he bought a second ticket to the drive-in movies for her. The poster at the diner clearly states that tickets are sold per car. This seems to be a clear hint left by the developers.
Warren watched Kate's video "one and a half times". Pretty self-explanatory, this one.

Source: https://steamcommunity.com/app/319630/discussions/0/537402115094938779/
 

Enduin

You look 40
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Oct 25, 2017
11,619
New York
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These two fuckers from season 1 of The Man in the High Castle.

She completely ruins her boyfriend's life because she's horny for the nazi spy. The entire season is nonstop selfish acts from those two and then it ends with them thinking I'd by sympathetic for them and would wish to see them success in season 2. No, fuck them. They're awful people.
Yeah, they're the reason I dropped the show somewhere in late S2. They're just both so annoying and shitty. Everyone else in the show was significantly more interesting and worthwhile. But not enough to suffer through these 2.
 
Almost the entire cast of Glee at various points in its run, due to the frequently massive disconnect between writer and audience perceptions.

For instance, they generally seemed to think Kurt could do nothing wrong and was always the righteous side in any argument.
 

Mollymauk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,331
Brianna and Roger from Outlander

These two are pretty insufferable. Although watching Roger get pummeled across last season almost made them worthwhile.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,403
I feel like the Star Wars writers are bending over backwards to make Kylo Ren sympathetic in the latest material and that shit is laughable lol.

It was actually random lightning that killed all of Luke's students and burned down his temple!
 
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Z-Beat

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,985
I don't think he was ever suppose to be the love interest at all. Some days ago someone posted a screenshot where I noticed Warren stalking Max. He even flees when you notice him.

Other things why he is a creep (and I think people are suppose to notice)
I feel like those are in there to contrast with any actions added of him being nice to you but it definitely does not even out, which makes those prior events seem kinda...pointless
 

Splatterpunk

Member
Nov 3, 2017
278
These two fuckers from season 1 of The Man in the High Castle.

She completely ruins her boyfriend's life because she's horny for the nazi spy. The entire season is nonstop selfish acts from those two and then it ends with the showrunners thinking I'd be sympathetic for them and would wish to see them succeed in season 2. No, fuck them. They're awful people.

Wow, I thought I'd be alone on this but yeah I totally agree. Dropped it after the first season cause of them. When I'm enjoying more the time spent with literal actual Nazis (and the Japanese dude) rather than the protagonist, your show has utterly failed.
 

Unaha-Closp

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,765
Scotland
I remember watching Baby Driver and not caring one jot about the main dude and the girlfriend/waitress. I didn't like anyone in that film. No one. I might be in the minority in that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
43,129
Uhhh, they most definitely don't want you to sympathize with him. This is like saying the author of Death Note wanted audiences to sympathize with Light when he's begging on the floor not to be killed. You could make the argument they want you to root for him, in the sense of getting away with the nonsense he keeps getting himself into from being a psycho
 

finalflame

Product Management
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,538
Uhhh, they most definitely don't want you to sympathize with him. This is like saying the author of Death Note wanted audiences to sympathize with Light when he's begging on the floor not to be killed. You could make the argument they want you to root for him, in the sense of getting away with the nonsense he keeps getting himself into from being a psycho
Of course they do, they go out of their way to show he's not "all bad" and build sympathy with the Paco and Ellie arcs.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,485
Adam was a total asshole to Samus and literally shot her in the back, and basically let his whole squadron get killed by being irresponsible. Yet we are supposed to love him.
latest
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
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Sep 20, 2019
1,295
Sasuke,
Snape,
Anakin/Kylo/Any other time Star Wars attempts to make the viewer sympathise with fash,
Joe from You - specifically the show where they add multiple aspects to the story to try to sanitise him,
Kvothe,
Almost every character in the 40k books
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
21,774
Basically anyone who commits major atrocities but it's okay because they have a sad backstory. Sometimes it works but most of the time their backstory isn't anywhere near bad enough to justify their actions.

Looking at you, Akechi.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,853
For me personally? Yondu in Guardians of the Galaxy and Guardians of the Galaxy 2.

Marvel and James Gunn try so hard, but all the time I was just thinking: "This guy is such an evil pirate that all the other evil pirates kicked him out of their club, he kidnapped children and delivered them to a mass murderer fully aware of what was going on and the one kid he did spare, he threatened with death if he didn't do exactly what he said."

And then at the end when he dies GotG2 tries to go all emotional and tells you "Yondu has redeemed himself!". Fuck that he didn't, dude saved one guy, ONE GUY. How the hell does that make up for literal decades of human/alien trafficking, murder and child enslavement? And that one guy he saved literally only cares about him because he has a major case of Stockholm syndrome.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,585
I didn't symphathise that much with the 10th doctor who, when he knows he has to to sacrifice himself to save his friend and starts having a go at him "cause you had to go in there... that's who you are" c'mon you've died more than 10 times before.

They say later with a different writer, he had vanity issues.
 
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Z-Beat

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,985
If you want the same impact of no text and a big picture, while also providing context to those who don't know the thing in your picture, I recommend using
Code:
[ispoiler] [/ispoiler]

That way, you don't get people like me replying with "Who???"
The bottom one is Steve Burnside from Resident Evil Code Veronica, a solid choice
 

Aurelioking

Member
Oct 28, 2017
61
While Adonis Creed is likeable in Creed 1 he is unlikeable and comes off as hugely manipulative in Creed 2.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,489
Megatron from Transformers More Than Meets the Eye. No, James Roberts, I'm not sympathetic to Robot Hitler just because he's really sad and standing in a field of flowers representing the people he's killed.
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
Somehow I knew Sasuke would be brought up. I really don't think we're meant to root for Sasuke. He's Naruto's rival, if anything, we're meant to root against him. Even if the series really goes far to forgive Sasuke and bring him back to the light, that's kind of the central theme of the whole manga. It never tries to frame all the bad things Sasuke does as right or just. During his worst moments (5 Kage Summit arc), it's pointed out several times that Sasuke has fallen and what he's doing is wrong. You really only root for him when he fights Danzo who is a much bigger asshole.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,228
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These two fuckers from season 1 of The Man in the High Castle.

She completely ruins her boyfriend's life because she's horny for the nazi spy. The entire season is nonstop selfish acts from those two and then it ends with the showrunners thinking I'd be sympathetic for them and would wish to see them succeed in season 2. No, fuck them. They're awful people.

I was never sold on her insane drive in the first season after watching a film that she has no idea if it's real or not.

This one film was enough to risk getting all these people killed and basically ruined Frank's life. I feel like I missed something somewhere that would drive a person to say "yeah it's cool if my entire family, my boyfriend, and my boyfriend's family lives are now at risk because I want to know more about this film".

Her character became a whole lot more rational as the show went on and I think they rehabilitated the character quite a bit.

Joe Blake was pretty much awful the entire time and his whole journey was kinda pointless in a lot of ways.

I need to finish Season 4 but I do agree that somewhere along the way they kinda fucked up when John Smith, his wife, and an Imperial Japanese Trade Minister are the most sympathetic characters in the show. Feels like the show in general kinda portrays both countries as "evil but not too evil" since there are only a few small glimpses and references to any kind of US holocaust.
 

Zaphod

Member
Aug 21, 2019
1,156
Wow, I thought I'd be alone on this but yeah I totally agree. Dropped it after the first season cause of them. When I'm enjoying more the time spent with literal actual Nazis (and the Japanese dude) rather than the protagonist, your show has utterly failed.

Same here, I can enjoy all types of characters. I love flawed and difficult characters, but those two were too much. I don't see how they could be so naive under Axis occupation.
 
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Z-Beat

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,985
Somehow I knew Sasuke would be brought up. I really don't think we're meant to root for Sasuke. He's Naruto's rival, if anything, we're meant to root against him. Even if the series really goes far to forgive Sasuke and bring him back to the light, that's kind of the central theme of the whole manga. It never tries to frame all the bad things Sasuke does as right or just. During his worst moments (5 Kage Summit arc), it's pointed out several times that Sasuke has fallen and what he's doing is wrong. You really only root for him when he fights Danzo who is a much bigger asshole.
If Riku in Kingdom Hearts didn't exist I might agree, but Riku is pretty clearly what they were trying to go for and they fucked it up
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,313
Bryce Walker in season 3 of 13 reasons why

I don't like how the show tried to make Bryce look like he wanted to turn a new leaf when he's been despicable the entire time before that
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
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Sep 20, 2019
1,295
Somehow I knew Sasuke would be brought up. I really don't think we're meant to root for Sasuke. He's Naruto's rival, if anything, we're meant to root against him. Even if the series really goes far to forgive Sasuke and bring him back to the light, that's kind of the central theme of the whole manga. It never tries to frame all the bad things Sasuke does as right or just. During his worst moments (5 Kage Summit arc), it's pointed out several times that Sasuke has fallen and what he's doing is wrong. You really only root for him when he fights Danzo who is a much bigger asshole.
He literally gets off with all the bad shit he did at the end because he's mates with both Kakashi and Naruto. The fact the series is mostly shown from Naruto's perspective of the world means that the fact that Naruto constantly stands by the idea that he just needs to fight/talk to Sasuke and everything will be fine and dandy and this then literally becomes reality absolutely makes it clear that Naruto's naive view about his friend who was basically a straight up super villian was actually still a good dude deep down is the one we are meant to believe
If Riku in Kingdom Hearts didn't exist I might agree, but Riku is pretty clearly what they were trying to go for and they fucked it up
Yep, Riku is how you do the friend who turned to the dark side then redeems themself right.
 

Barrel_Roll

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
963
Simon from Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, Thorn. To be fair, I'm not sure if he's really supposed to be 'likeable', and I'm only through book two of four, but I have to force myself to read the parts where he's on his own. Hopefully he'll become less whiny and useless going forward.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Uhhh, they most definitely don't want you to sympathize with him. This is like saying the author of Death Note wanted audiences to sympathize with Light when he's begging on the floor not to be killed. You could make the argument they want you to root for him, in the sense of getting away with the nonsense he keeps getting himself into from being a psycho

Yeah, someone I know once read the first Death Note tome and told me "I would have liked this as a teen but I'm too mature to empathize with the main character's ideology" (yes, I'm aware of the irony). It turns out that the idea of the viewpoint character being the villain that you root against is too counterintuitive for a lot of people.
 

S-Wind

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,191
That little POS kid in Robocop 2

Especially during his death scene

FUCK THAT!
 

TheLucasLite

Member
Aug 27, 2018
1,446
Against all better judgement, I'm still reading Samurai 8 by Kishimoto, and his main character for the past two chapters has had a little incel arc going on where he gets jealous of his "princess" hanging out with another samurai. The resolution to this was that the princess ended up having to apologize to the main character. It's trash.

The main character is also entitled through being convinced he's not only special, but also a genius inherently talented samurai because he was good at a video game.
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
Star and Marco from Star vs the Forces of Evil after a point

They're shitty people and given the finale is framed around them getting together as a couple (after teasing this development for like 3 seasons) it was hard to really give a shit for them when it involved performing mass genocide and leaving everyone in the worst situation possible (which is unambiguously framed as a good thing)
 

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,958
I made the mistake of watching the first season of 13 Reasons Why and Hannah is ridiculously unsympathetic. Worse, she not only uses suicide as a get even scheme but she puts Clay – supposedly the only person outside of her parents who cared about her – through a literal hell until revealing at the end that he wasn't one of the people responsible, yet she doesn't bother to mention this until the conclusion of the recordings.

It's fucking vile.

Granted, the series was shit and the premise poorly executed but if you're going to write a narrative about something as serious as suicide, work a little harder to give us a character we can empathize with.
 
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Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
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Sep 20, 2019
1,295
Both of those arcs are ultimately about reinforcing that he's a toxic individual.
The Paco arc doesn't do that well enough though, can't speak for the Ellie stuff as I dropped it after Season 1
but she puts Clay – supposedly the only person outside of her parents who cared about her – through a literal hell until revealing at the end that he wasn't one of the people responsible, yet she doesn't bother to mention this until the conclusion of the recordings.
Tbf, this point specifically is more the fault of the show's adaptation as it stretches out Clay listening for the purpose of a tape per episode format. And literally every other character who listened to the tapes did them all in one go just like he did in the book. This is clearly more the fault of the show writers not having a more elegant way of doing the format they wanted than the character Hannah
 

RedHoodedOwl

Member
Nov 3, 2017
14,261
Star and Marco from Star vs the Forces of Evil after a point

They're shitty people and given the finale is framed around them getting together as a couple (after teasing this development for like 3 seasons) it was hard to really give a shit for them when it involved performing mass genocide and leaving everyone in the worst situation possible (which is unambiguously framed as a good thing)

The ship that destroyed an entire series.