hahah please stop, people just need to read the posts.
By the way if anyone asking, Lazi= Lazo (Tie) + Nazi
The just need to read the one you called me one. Again you are reported.
hahah please stop, people just need to read the posts.
By the way if anyone asking, Lazi= Lazo (Tie) + Nazi
What's your parallel with Andalusia and Eastern Europe?Support for leaving the EU was polling at around 30% among the UK population when it was first announced, and then snowballed from there in to a full on culture war, with one side able to make infinite promises of everything being different, while the other side had to actually account for the downsides of existing in reality.
When you propose a referendum you really risk opening Pandora's box - and given the justifications for Catalan independence that I have heard from Catalan acquaintances, I imagine any referendum would go along similar lines (replacing Brussels with Madrid, and Eastern Europe with regions of Spain such as Andalusia)
It's not as simple or straightforward as your suggestion makes it out to be
Don't break the law if you don't want to go to prison. Isn't that simple?
This is pretty much it. In 2010, support for independence was about 20%, then Artur Mas decided to blame austerity policies on the central government and start pushing for independence, and here we are now.Support for leaving the EU was polling at around 30% among the UK population when it was first announced, and then snowballed from there in to a full on culture war, with one side able to make infinite promises of everything being different, while the other side had to actually account for the downsides of existing in reality.
When you propose a referendum you really risk opening Pandora's box - and given the justifications for Catalan independence that I have heard from Catalan acquaintances, I imagine any referendum would go along similar lines (replacing Brussels with Madrid, and Eastern Europe with regions of Spain such as Andalusia)
It's not as simple or straightforward as your suggestion makes it out to be
manipulation? You mean the law inside the actual constitution made at 1978?Don't break the law if you don't want to go to prison. Isn't that simple?
Also lol at comparing 1978 Spain with today. Talk about manipulation.
That all of "their" tax money goes on improving places like Andalusia - where they are just lazy and don't like to work - when it could be better spent on places in Catalonia instead
what a racist and stupid postThat all of "their" tax money goes on improving places like Andalusia - where they are just lazy and don't like to work - when it could be better spent on places in Catalonia instead
Holy fuck this is straight out xenophobia. But yeah this is the actual separatist rhetoric. Isn't it amazing?
That's actually why Spain does not support secessionist movements in EU countries.If China doesn't oppose separatist movements in other countries it creates a precedent for separatist movements in China to claim independence
Yes and in 1981 I wasnt born, we used PESETAS for like 18 more years and you could go watch a movie for $2.71
If China doesn't oppose separatist movements in other countries it creates a precedent for separatist movements in China to claim independence
it happened and it's not the only time it's happened. Do I really care? No. I'll take my American converted Euros elsewhere. Otherwise the Spaniards have been quite welcoming in taking my money.
Huh? You talking about the country where musicians are imprisoned for their song lyrics, right? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/rapper-jailed-lyrics-spanish-royal-family-valtonyc-josep-miquel-arenas-beltran-a8226421.html?amp
Yes, and just like Ice T shouldn't be arrested and imprisoned for penning "Cop Killer", nor should this rapper for criticizing Spain. This is literally a person being imprisoned for their ideas, so your entire claim that Spain isn't a place where that happens is bullshit.
Paquete_PT
Not that I necessarily agree with how it went down, but the logic is that a protest needs to be as disruptive as possible (without resorting to violence, hopefully) for it to hope to achieve any form of success. Unfortunately this means that some people get caught in some sort of collateral, despite they literally being faultless.
Not that I think that both situation are comparable, but Hongkongers also disrupted the airport, and the events yesterday took inspiration from that
Yes, and just like Ice T shouldn't be arrested and imprisoned for penning "Cop Killer", nor should this rapper for criticizing Spain. This is literally a person being imprisoned for their ideas, so your entire claim that Spain isn't a place where that happens is bullshit.
Don't remember Ice T glorifying a terrorist group that killed over 800 men, women and children, plenty of them innocent bystanders, and maimed countless others, and then asking for more of that because, you know, it kinda rules.Yes, and just like Ice T shouldn't be arrested and imprisoned for penning "Cop Killer", nor should this rapper for criticizing Spain. This is literally a person being imprisoned for their ideas, so your entire claim that Spain isn't a place where that happens is bullshit.
Why not just give them the referendum they want. What I read here it will come out in favor of catalunya staying in Spain. Just don't get why it is so hard to accept, in a democratic state. Hench I would support it if one of our provinces wanted a referendum on Independence.
Because (Very much like most democratic countries save for very specific cases like the UK or Canada) the Constitution doesn't contemplate a part of the country seceding. As a Spanish citizen, you are born with the right to be in Spain in Catalonia, with the garantee you won't suddenly be a foreigner in your own country.Why not just give them the referendum they want. What I read here it will come out in favor of catalunya staying in Spain. Just don't get why it is so hard to accept, in a democratic state. Hench I would support it if one of our provinces wanted a referendum on Independence.
Does the king in Spain, have that much power in a Constitution change? I believe here the two chambers of parlement must for it with 50% + 1 vote approving the change then there should be new elections and than both the chambers should vote on it with 75% approving the change. They usually plan a change to the constitution around a normal election.Because it's more complex than it seems.
A Referendum like that has to involve the whole people of Spain, not just from Catalonia. Only the Central State can call for a Referendum, not the local Government.
We would have to change the Constitution to allow so. And to do that... It would have to be voted by all Spanish people.
So, we would need to call a Referendum to allow another Referendum.
And I can already guarantee you that the first Referendum won't allow the latter.
Plus, the King would always have the last word on it.
Had a terrible experience yesterday at Barcelona's airport. My flight was at 20.20 but because of all the confusion I decided to go early and left my apartment at 2pm. Took the subway as far as I could and then walked 4km to terminal 2. The shuttle to terminal 1 wasn't working and police had no idea how we could get there, they kept telling us bad directions. We then walked another hour to terminal 1 along with the protesters, everything peaceful so far. We managed to get in the lobby of terminal 1 but protesters were blocking the entrance to the check-in and departure area. Then things escalated quickly outside between the police and the protesters, with them throwing bottles and using fire extinguishers against the police. I wasn't in the hot zone, but as far as I could tell police were being very prudent and civil and protesters were the first ones to use some sorte of force. Then we were basically trapped in this lobby area with nowhere to go to safely. The was nothing to eat. There were entire families with toddlers, people with disabilities in wheelchairs that had nowhere to go and no one told us anything. I was with a girl that was flying home for her grandfather's funeral.
The matter of independence is between a country, the region and its people. It's not my place to know who's right or not. But this protest rubbed me the wrong way. If any catalans who were at the protest would like to give their take on the issue I would love to read it. Why was it fair to prevent others from seeing their families or going to work? Do ends justify means?
Another thing that surprised me was how young were the protesters. I'd say the average age was 20-30yo. I understand that youngsters have the motivation to find a cause to fight for, but I doubt most people there had a deep understanding of the situation, of what it means to live under an authoritative regime (as they would chant) and what it actually means to fight for freedom. Most of them were having a blast and partying, like it was just a cool way to spend the evening.
I'm sorry if this seems cruel and very first-world problem and I do understand that a people's will is more important than me having a bad day, but it rubbed me the wrong way.
Does the king in Spain, have that much power in a Constitution change? I believe here the two chambers of parlement must for it with 50% + 1 vote approving the change then there should be new elections and than both the chambers should vote on it with 75% approving the change. They usually plan a change to the constitution around a normal election.
Ok A king with a real task. Our king has to sign the laws, but he may not refuse. So it is symbolic.
About that last point, yeah, I am surprised how non-existant the news about this have been outside of Spain. I expected more.Fair opinion piece from The Guardian:
Because it's more complex than it seems.
A Referendum like that has to involve the whole people of Spain, not just from Catalonia. Only the Central State can call for a Referendum, not the local Government.
We would have to change the Constitution to allow so. And to do that... It would have to be voted by all Spanish people.
So, we would need to call a Referendum to allow another Referendum.
And I can already guarantee you that the first Referendum won't allow the latter.
Plus, the King would always have the last word on it.
Fair opinion piece from The Guardian:
The independence campaign embraced the tactics of civil disobedience, where people who deliberately flout the law know they may go to jail. This is often a key part of the process, since it provokes the outrage that brings change. The nine men and women sentenced to between nine and 13 years of prison have stuck honourably to that tradition. Puigdemont clearly has not.
Paradoxically, an obvious solution is to hold a proper referendum.. The country's written constitution makes both a referendum and independence theoretically possible, in a process controlled from Madrid. .
Also this and the analysis that follows seems at odds with the facts about theoretical impossibilities of such a vote in this thread:
"Paradoxically, an obvious solution is to hold a proper referendum.. The country's written constitution makes both a referendum and independence theoretically possible, in a process controlled from Madrid."
As far as I know, the Spanish constitution only allows binding referenda in which the whole country is allowed to vote. So doing it for a specific region would require a modification of the constitution, which would also have to introduce the possibility for a region to secede.
Modifying the constitution in Spain, specifically to reflect the possibility of secession, is a complex process involving a qualified majority vote in the congress, general elections, a second qualified majority vote and finally a referendum in which the whole country votes. So the legal way to independence is technically possible, but almost impossible to carry out in practice.
Thanks - in the guardian piece he makes it sound like a less complicated set-up (even if probable success is low) as it implies only a senate vote, as he seems if I read it correctly imply that a change of constitution is not needed(?):
" In practical terms, however, it hands a blocking vote to 40% of the senate. "
Out of curiosity - have the politicians sentenced or the jordis framed their actions as civil disobedience?
Also this and the analysis that follows seems at odds with the facts about theoretical impossibilities of such a vote in this thread:
As far as I know, the Spanish constitution only allows binding referenda in which the whole country is allowed to vote. So doing it for a specific region would require a modification of the constitution, which would also have to introduce the possibility for a region to secede.
Modifying the constitution in Spain, specifically to reflect the possibility of secession, is a complex process involving a qualified majority vote in the congress, general elections, a second qualified majority vote and finally a referendum in which the whole country votes. So the legal way to independence is technically possible, but almost impossible to carry out in practice.
Why not just give them the referendum they want. What I read here it will come out in favor of catalunya staying in Spain. Just don't get why it is so hard to accept, in a democratic state. Hench I would support it if one of our provinces wanted a referendum on Independence.
I know what it is for, it's still wrong. Your statement was false, this case is an example of what you claimed "never happens in Spain".It's not for criticizing Spain so clearly you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
By the way, go read Valtonyc's sentence and then come back to try to lecture me.
Obviously I'm disagreeing with the law, the only reason I brought it up is because that poster claimed that people don't get imprisoned for their ideas. They clearly do. You can say "well that's the law in Spain" all you want, but that was never in dispute.Don't remember Ice T glorifying a terrorist group that killed over 800 men, women and children, plenty of them innocent bystanders, and maimed countless others, and then asking for more of that because, you know, it kinda rules.
Fuck off.
Progressive people whose only sin was to be politically active lived in fear for years, under threat if imminent death. Now a 24 years old who didn't live through any of that because he isn't even from the area is just gonna rap about how cool it all is and how we so need more of it. Well, fuck him, he KNEW what the consequences could be. Agree or not with the laws, they are written, public and can be changed. This is a democratic country with a long history of violence. Know where you come from, and if you want to change things, propose said changes. Separatism isn't outlawed and plenty of political parties keep pushing for it in national and regional parliaments. Misuse of public funds, prevarication and terror apologism is.
I know what it is for, it's still wrong. Your statement was false, this case is an example of what you claimed "never happens in Spain".
Obviously I'm disagreeing with the law, the only reason I brought it up is because that poster claimed that people don't get imprisoned for their ideas. They clearly do. You can say "well that's the law in Spain" all you want, but that was never in dispute.
Yeah, but Catalonia has been part of Spain ever since it was named Spain, so they are every bit as Spanish as every other Spaniard. Catalan nationalism is a late 19th Century phenomenon, in the context of racial nationalist theory.If in my country the Sudtirolei people (who are ethnically Austrian) would want the separation or get back to Austria, I'd say "let them".
wellbye.gif
This rapper is hardly the first case of someone being fined or imprisoned for songs or protest or other views. There is a whole list of people who have had the Spanish government come down on them in a variety of ways, for things as ridiculous as photoshopping their own head on a picture of Jesus: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/free-speech-under-siege-in-spain/You're so fucking wrong my head aches reading you.
"Enaltecimiento del terrorismo" or advocating terrorism is a typified crime according to Spanish law, same goes for insults to the crown and making threats to another person. And that my friend is not imprisoning someone for their ideas.
This rapper is hardly the first case of someone being fined or imprisoned for songs or protest or other views. There is a whole list of people who have had the Spanish government come down on them in a variety of ways, for things as ridiculous as photoshopping their own head on a picture of Jesus: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/free-speech-under-siege-in-spain/
Hell, people have been prosecuted for the kinds of comments people make on this forum about people in the Trump administration. Amnesty International has maintained that these prosecutions are a violation of human rights, and that these songs/tweets/statements are not incitements to terrorism and fall under permissible expression under international law. The fact that "insults to the crown" are illegal is fucking preposterous on it's face, and such an obvious violation to freedom of speech that I can't believe you are defending it.