Can I be honest here, I tried out Ray Tracing and it's not a big deal as some people make it out to be.

[EggmaniMN]

Ray tracing in all of its many forms absolutely affects gameplay in many meaningful ways. It is absolutely 100% more than just visual flair.

HDR is also very impactful and absolutely affects a game.

Why are you people so against having things be better. Like it's just baffling. How can you have it explained in so many ways, so many times, shown in so many situations and not see how any of this affects gameplay. My mind BOGGLES.

 

[Deleted member 70824]

yeah what games and what where your system specs OP?

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Finally, someone asked the questions that needed to be asked

 

[dex3108]

I've found that these technical factors are a really touchy subject around here. People want to make them out as being revolutionary and game changing, but they're really not. HDR, ray tracing, super high resolutions will never affect gameplay in any meaningful way. They simply don't add anything but visual flair.

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They can impact gameplay when they are mass adopted. Using real-time reflections that RT provides can be incorporated into puzzles for example. RTGI and shadows can impact stealth mechanics, RT sound also can impact gameplay. For now these things are not advised because tech didn't reached critical mass, but in the near future it can provide gameplay changes on top of visual ones.

 

[Nooblet]

They can impact gameplay when they are mass adopted. Using real-time reflections that RT provides can be incorporated into puzzles for example. RTGI and shadows can impact stealth mechanics, RT sound also can impact gameplay. For now these things are not advised because tech didn't reached critical mass, but in the near future it can provide gameplay changes on top of visual ones.

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Also RT reflections will change multiplayer considerably as you can see anyone coming through before they are visible. Especially if the reflection has low cut off like in Watch Dogs and reflects off walls too. For a game like Rainbow Six Siege that's a game changer.

 

[Vex]

HDR is also very impactful and absolutely affects a game.

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Can you describe in detail why? Not saying I disagree, but I am curious how HDR could be so impactful for gaming and game design.

 

[Abominuz]

Can you describe in detail why? Not saying I disagree, but I am curious how HDR could be so impactful for gaming and game design.

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It provides a better image quality. On a standard 4k tv that was pretty old HDR wasnt that good. Now on a 4K OLED a lot of games look really beter with HDR. Wider color ranges and contrast and it really makes a difference how games look. But ray tracing is really something that effects game design and can make a game really look different. But the cost is just to damn high. I really think next generation we will see it fully used on consoles. PC will be way ahead and i think we will see it fully utilised the next series of GPU's.

 

[MiDoZ]

Why are you people so against having things be better. Like it's just baffling. How can you have it explained in so many ways, so many times, shown in so many situations and not see how any of this affects gameplay. My mind BOGGLES.

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Take the timing of the thread into consideration and you'll know why 😂

 

[Horp]

I agree with everything here full stop, I just don't think we're there or anywhere near there. Just like how real-time lighting took time to be widely available as hardware generations had to pass, RT will have to do the same. When it does, it's well worth it, but we aren't there yet - we're at the point where a fraction of the market has access to it, but through consoles supporting it we may start to edge towards titles that use raytracing as the majority or only form of lighting.

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You're right. I believe it's closer than you do (due to AI driven solutions, which continue to impress and baffle), but yes. We're not there yet. This, however, does not mean that RT as a tech, and a concept, isn't a game changer. Just like how the early 3D games looked simplistic and was seemingly not a big leap from beautiful 2D games didn't mean 3D wasn't a game changer.
So on the question: "is rt worth it in game x - a game built from the ground up using traditional techniques with RT sprinkled ontop with a huge performance hit?"
Probably no.
But on the question: "is RT as a tech and concept a game changer?"
A resounding: YES

 

[Sanctuary]

Ray tracing in all of its many forms absolutely affects gameplay in many meaningful ways. It is absolutely 100% more than just visual flair.

HDR is also very impactful and absolutely affects a game.

Why are you people so against having things be better. Like it's just baffling. How can you have it explained in so many ways, so many times, shown in so many situations and not see how any of this affects gameplay. My mind BOGGLES.

Click to shrink...

Right now, aside from the random multiplayer "advantage", it really doesn't yet at all. They aren't going to design a game based around ray tracing effects, only for 0.0001% of the people actually playing the games even being able to utilize them. It is 100% absolutely just visual flair for the time being.

 

[Jokerman]

Is ray tracing really not going to be possible on the next generation, with games targeting 30fps? Is it because of the AMD architecture?

 

[dex3108]

Also RT reflections will change multiplayer considerably as you can see anyone coming through before they are visible. Especially if the reflection has low cut off like in Watch Dogs and reflects off walls too. For a game like Rainbow Six Siege that's a game changer.

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Developers probably have tons of ideas already, and we will see first implementations in indie games soon enough.

 

[Chairmanchuck (另一个我)]

Developers probably have tons of ideas already, and we will see first implementations in indie games soon enough.

Click to shrink...

 

[travisbickle]

Take the timing of the thread into consideration and you'll know why 😂

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Is it a full moon or something?

 

[lairo]

As a developer, it is an absolute game changer that's only now being born. The amount of work that goes into faking lighting is absolutely insane, and if one day we could just set up light sources and have them work on most player's computers/consoles - that'll mean the gap between indie and AAA would have shrunk by half

 

[Joseph Joestar]

The performance hit is far too high for reflections alone. The ambient lighting changes from surface scattering and stuff can be great. But many titles do such a good job mimicking or approximating for a fraction of the cost already.



If we're talking nearly double the frames with RTX off, I'm gonna take RTX off.

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Looks like they just use reflections and shadows but no global illumination / SSAO. I dont like the hybrid approach currently. They should have waited until they have the power for full raytracing / pathtracing before introducing the tech.

 

[Xenosaga]

I had to watch the gif twice to actually see what happened. Yes it's technically impressive, but it's more of a "oh that's neat" and not a "wow this changes EVERYTHING".

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Honestly this is how I feel about most of the ray-tracing examples I see.

 

[consoul]

While there will be great applications of it, I think we're gonna see a lot of really shoddy RT implementations early in this gen as studios shoehorn it in as a checkbox feature.

Capcom, I'm looking at you. Look at DMC5SE. If the reflection of the bus is brighter than the bus, you're doing it wrong.

 

[enzo_gt]

Haven't seen ray-tracing myself, but I've been saying for years that fidelity/quality of models, props, environments etc. is the true bottleneck in graphics tech.

While the industry is pushing resolution and lighting advances, the biggest things that take you out of the experience are awkward looking, lower-poly hair and unrealistic skin. This has persisted for generations, too. Hell, I think the only reason framerate is getting as much attention as it is right now is because this bottleneck is harder to address, not because anyone in the mainstream gaming audience is demanding or will get much more out of 8K/120fps/ray-tracing. Hair that doesn't look like twist ties or non-rubbery skin, though? Immediate, tangible difference.

Ray-tracing is one of those things that becomes proportionally more impressive when the rest of the package gets better, IMO. It's definitely a huge deal, but I think it'll be a while before environments are sufficiently detailed enough to take things to the next level.

 

[Indy_Rex]

Can you describe in detail why? Not saying I disagree, but I am curious how HDR could be so impactful for gaming and game design.

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It's impactful in the same way color depth was impactful to games. Going from 1-bit color to 24-bit + color has had a significant impact on the way you experience gaming.

Color depth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

HDR is an option right now b/c we're in a transitional period, but it'll become the standard for color and luminosity in displays, and it'll supplant SDR in a few years in the same way we've dealt with color depth.

 

[Deleted member 1698]

Current:

Dev: Set up the scene, add lighting, bake in reflections, add other tricks, adjust, adjust again, redo it all because it looks shit, redo it again because it performs like shit, adjust, do more work, finally get something that "looks great"
Publisher: Great! Now add microtransactions that will piss everyone off
Gamer: Fuck this game and it's microtransactions.

With RT:

Dev: Turn on RT, here is your fucking game
Publisher: Great! Now add microtransactions that will piss everyone off
Gamer: Fuck this game and it's microtransactions.

Ray tracing is a big deal, just not in the way people think about it.

 

[CTRON]

They can impact gameplay when they are mass adopted. Using real-time reflections that RT provides can be incorporated into puzzles for example. RTGI and shadows can impact stealth mechanics, RT sound also can impact gameplay.

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RT reflections can improve visibility of off-screen objects, but conventional alternatives for GI and sound are also seeing improvement and work well enough from a gameplay standpoint, especially where performance is a consideration. UE5's Lumen, for example.

 

[Joseph Joestar]

There probably won't ever be game changers like 3D and HD ever again. Just small improvements that will eventually make a big difference over time.

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Yea sure.

Haven't seen ray-tracing myself, but I've been saying for years that fidelity/quality of models, props, environments etc. is the true bottleneck in graphics tech.

While the industry is pushing resolution and lighting advances, the biggest things that take you out of the experience are awkward looking, lower-poly hair and unrealistic skin. This has persisted for generations, too. Hell, I think the only reason framerate is getting as much attention as it is right now is because this bottleneck is harder to address, not because anyone in the mainstream gaming audience is demanding or will get much more out of 8K/120fps/ray-tracing. Hair that doesn't look like twist ties or non-rubbery skin, though? Immediate, tangible difference.

Ray-tracing is one of those things that becomes proportionally more impressive when the rest of the package gets better, IMO. It's definitely a huge deal, but I think it'll be a while before environments are sufficiently detailed enough to take things to the next level.

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Thats what proper raytraced lighting is:

 

[WishIwasAwolf]

TLOU2 RTX lighting would look mostly the same, but could be completed in less development time.

 

[Doctor Avatar]

Yea sure.

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The most impressive looking thing ever seen running in real time had no RT.

It's a nice tool and technology. It isn't the be all and end all. If developers wanted to push graphics as much as possible without RT they should have the option, but I suspect it may be the new "native 4K", where if a game doesn't have it then it's crucified.

 

[Mbolibombo]

It's the MMX of our time :P

I think it's cool but I'm in the same boat it's not boggling my mind or stuff like that.

 

[Arn]

I'm conflicted on it.

To be quite honest I didn't see the value, and then the Watch Dogs video was an eye opener. And above the Stormtrooper video is a great example of how it really is the next big visual jump required to move us closer to CG level visuals.

But I don't really like the idea that without it a game can't be visually spectacular. That's just not true and there are countless examples; developers are really good at faking reflections and baking them in. Similarly there's no real examples of good implementation without banjo-snapping the performance. Machine learning and implementation techniques need to get way better for it to be a required feature in all games. Hopefully having dedicated hardware in both new machines will mean we see that 2-3 years into the generation.

 

[leng jai]

I'm conflicted on it.

To be quite honest I didn't see the value, and then the Watch Dogs video was an eye opener. And above the Stormtrooper video is a great example of how it really is the next big visual jump required to move us closer to CG level visuals.

But I don't really like the idea that without it a game can't be visually spectacular. That's just not true and there are countless examples; developers are really good at faking reflections and baking them in. Similarly there's no real examples of good implementation without banjo-snapping the performance. Machine learning and implementation techniques need to get way better for it to be a required feature in all games. Hopefully having dedicated hardware in both new machines will mean we see that 2-3 years into the generation.

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Who said a game can't be visually spectacular without RT?

 

[Ellite25]

The performance hit is far too high for reflections alone. The ambient lighting changes from surface scattering and stuff can be great. But many titles do such a good job mimicking or approximating for a fraction of the cost already.



If we're talking nearly double the frames with RTX off, I'm gonna take RTX off.

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Why do the character models look bad and low res? Some of the ray tracing stuff looks really good though.

 

[Joseph Joestar]

The most impressive looking thing ever seen running in real time had no RT.

It's a nice tool and technology. It isn't the be all and end all. If developers wanted to push graphics as much as possible without RT they should have the option, but I suspect it may be the new "native 4K", where if a game doesn't have it then it's crucified.

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Yep and it emulates all the stuff that a full raytracing implementation wants to archive. You can also add raytraced reflections if you want to have them in UE5.

 

[degauss]

I agree. It's the new Ambient Occlusion.

It's an additive thing with no downside except framerate that makes things look better but it's not always immediately obvious.

You could turn it off, save some framerate, and people would often fail to pick the better looking imagine in side by side blind tests on it on/off.

But that doesn't mean it's not a solid step in making graphics look better overall, or that we shouldn't use it.

 

[Nooblet]

The most impressive looking thing ever seen running in real time had no RT.

It's a nice tool and technology. It isn't the be all and end all. If developers wanted to push graphics as much as possible without RT they should have the option, but I suspect it may be the new "native 4K", where if a game doesn't have it then it's crucified.

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That's cause of two things Lumen and Nanite and I'll talk about both.

Lumen, their GI solution, is essentially a software based approach to Ray Traced GI. It's a half step process to ray traced GI, wherein the 2nd half is done via hacks and you can see its shortcomings where its using screen space techniques to make up for the disadvantage of being software based. So that most impressive looking thing, would be even more impressive if it had hardware based RTGI.

As for nanite, that's a nice tech but it's not going to be practical for games because of two reasons; the first being it's not feasible to have a proper full length game with model quality that high as it's an unrealistic amount of work and you also need to store the data somewhere, the other being it only works on static geometry so if you want a dynamic environment with moving objects then it can't use nanite.

 

[Indy_Rex]

The most impressive looking thing ever seen running in real time had no RT.

It's a nice tool and technology. It isn't the be all and end all. If developers wanted to push graphics as much as possible without RT they should have the option, but I suspect it may be the new "native 4K", where if a game doesn't have it then it's crucified.

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This is literally false. The demo had RT, it didn't have ~hardware~ RT.

 

[Readler]

It's a game changer for the devs, less so for consumers.

Current implementations are trivial imo and are only visual flourishes (albeit pretty neat ones). Devs could get creative with it, sure, but I'd say it's first and foremost a strictly visual component. Calling it "not a big deal" might be a bit short-sighted though, as fully ray traced games are going to be absolutely spectacular, even if that's still at least another gen off :P

 

[Animismus]

Depends a lot on the game you tried. BF5 is a big showcase for the technique but I think running a round trying to see an ant shooting you from across the map is hardly the best option to implement eye candy that drops 20fps.

 

[Deleted member 50374]

Haven't seen ray-tracing myself, but I've been saying for years that fidelity/quality of models, props, environments etc. is the true bottleneck in graphics tech.

While the industry is pushing resolution and lighting advances, the biggest things that take you out of the experience are awkward looking, lower-poly hair and unrealistic skin. This has persisted for generations, too. Hell, I think the only reason framerate is getting as much attention as it is right now is because this bottleneck is harder to address, not because anyone in the mainstream gaming audience is demanding or will get much more out of 8K/120fps/ray-tracing. Hair that doesn't look like twist ties or non-rubbery skin, though? Immediate, tangible difference.

Ray-tracing is one of those things that becomes proportionally more impressive when the rest of the package gets better, IMO. It's definitely a huge deal, but I think it'll be a while before environments are sufficiently detailed enough to take things to the next level.

Click to shrink...

The point of ray tracing is to replicate how lights bounces, meaning having the materials look like in real life to your eyes/pixels, though hair is also the domain of physics. People keep conflating it with shadows and reflections, but those are only the most evident effects they can apply over real time rastering. Want the most realistic skin with wrinkles and pores and the correct saturation and transparency in certain points of it? Can't do that without RT.

 

[Deleted member 10193]

Yeah, that's impressive, but how many times do you find that kind of environment in a game like Skyrim, or Dark Souls? Hell, even RDR 2, or Doom Eternal.

RT looks amazing in very specific circumstances, but right now it's no game changer for most gaming experiences.

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You realise RT is more than just reflections... right?

 

[Fireclad]

Uhhh, what? I just did the same thing playing Control, Minecraft and Ghostrunner. These games are incredible looking.

 

[Herne]

It's so early in the day that I don't care about it, either. For right now, it's a novelty and nothing more. In a few more GPU generations it'll become more of a must have feature, but for now? I have zero interest in it. I'm happy with my 5700 XT but even if I was upgrading to something like a 6900 XT, I wouldn't care about ray tracing performance. I'd try it out in a game or two for novelty's sake and then completely ignore it.

People keep saying that important titles are releasing soon with it enabled, like Cyberpunk, but by the year's end it's still going to be a bare handful of titles and even the RTX 3090 will take a good performance hit to use it. I know people are eager to take advantage of it but we're at such an early stage the most powerful GPU's take a noticeable performance hit when rendering it in current games, to say nothing of a game with a truly global ray traced lighting engine arrives.

New technologies are exciting, and people will be crowing about it for a while and how super important it is to the gaming experience that you get a GPU capable enough to have it, but I'm not going to care about looking at the ray tracing performance of a GPU replacement for another three years at least. At that point GPU's and games both will be in a much better position.

 

[Dan Thunder]

The implementation of ray-tracing now is an investment for the future. At the minute it can make things look a bit better for massive games but for smaller devs it could be a godsend in terms of stuff like lighting, where they can now offload that completely to the hardware.

Going forward, as it develops it's use will expand massively not only in terms of lighting and how it can affect gameplay but also how much it will reduce the workload on all developers. For example look at TLoU2 where pretty much every internal location uses pre-calculated light. The lighting has to be set up and then rendered out to get the final image with everything in the location lit properly. If it doesn't look right they have to start again. In the future the developers can literally have the location and add light sources in as and where they see fit, in real-time, and know that everything in that location will be lit properly and immediately. If there's an issue it can be changed there and then. Or if the location is completely dark they can rely on the light from the location next to it bouncing some through rather than working on two different ones. For example if you have a game with a secret staircase behind a cupboard you won't need to add pre-calculated light to it, once the cupboard moves the light from the room with the cupboard will bounce down into the staircase and light it perfectly for you.

These are the first steps and whilst I expect it's use to be comparatively small scale over this generation - in terms of what games do with the technology - this will lead to bigger and better implementation as we move forward.

 

[degauss]

Uhhh, what? I just did the same thing playing Control, Minecraft and Ghostrunner. These games are incredible looking.

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Yeah Minecraft is the first game that's had a marked difference with RT.
Control looks pretty much just as good without it, I think that's kinda his point.

 

[El-Pistolero]

RTX is the most boring thing being pushed for next-gen. I'll take performance over it any day.

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Well, the technology is at its infancy and the current consoles not powerful enough to seriously toy with it without significant concessions. If it is any consolation, both machines will serve as a nice playground for developers to hone their skills and prepare for the real enabling platforms (PS6 and Xbox Next).

The implementation of ray-tracing now is an investment for the future. At the minute it can make things look a bit better for massive games but for smaller devs it could be a godsend in terms of stuff like lighting, where they can now offload that completely to the hardware.

Going forward, as it develops it's use will expand massively not only in terms of lighting and how it can affect gameplay but also how much it will reduce the workload on all developers. For example look at TLoU2 where pretty much every internal location uses pre-calculated light. The lighting has to be set up and then rendered out to get the final image with everything in the location lit properly. If it doesn't look right they have to start again. In the future the developers can literally have the location and add light sources in as and where they see fit, in real-time, and know that everything in that location will be lit properly and immediately. If there's an issue it can be changed there and then. Or if the location is completely dark they can rely on the light from the location next to it bouncing some through rather than working on two different ones. For example if you have a game with a secret staircase behind a cupboard you won't need to add pre-calculated light to it, once the cupboard moves the light from the room with the cupboard will bounce down into the staircase and light it perfectly for you.

These are the first steps and whilst I expect it's use to be comparatively small scale over this generation - in terms of what games do with the technology - this will lead to bigger and better implementation as we move forward.

Click to shrink...

 

[Joseph Joestar]

The implementation of ray-tracing now is an investment for the future. At the minute it can make things look a bit better for massive games but for smaller devs it could be a godsend in terms of stuff like lighting, where they can now offload that completely to the hardware.

Going forward, as it develops it's use will expand massively not only in terms of lighting and how it can affect gameplay but also how much it will reduce the workload on all developers. For example look at TLoU2 where pretty much every internal location uses pre-calculated light. The lighting has to be set up and then rendered out to get the final image with everything in the location lit properly. If it doesn't look right they have to start again. In the future the developers can literally have the location and add light sources in as and where they see fit, in real-time, and know that everything in that location will be lit properly and immediately. If there's an issue it can be changed there and then. Or if the location is completely dark they can rely on the light from the location next to it bouncing some through rather than working on two different ones. For example if you have a game with a secret staircase behind a cupboard you won't need to add pre-calculated light to it, once the cupboard moves the light from the room with the cupboard will bounce down into the staircase and light it perfectly for you.

These are the first steps and whilst I expect it's use to be comparatively small scale over this generation - in terms of what games do with the technology - this will lead to bigger and better implementation as we move forward.

Click to shrink...

It will already be the reality for developers early next year with UE5. Not raytracing but has all those benefits.

 

[Jokerman]

Control looks pretty much just as good without it.

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That is just not the case.

 

[345]

if the implementation is good, RT on/off is going to be a much more noticeable difference for me than 4K/1080p. i'm all for using the GPU in a more technically interesting way than just pumping out more pixels (as long as the game still runs at 60fps).

that's actually a big reason why i went for the series X over the S — i don't care about 4K all that much but chances are it'll be a much more practical RT box.

 

[El-Pistolero]

Is it a full moon or something?

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Maybe because it is Monday and people are generally on a bad mood? I have no idea...

 

[Myself]

Ray tracing in all of its many forms absolutely affects gameplay in many meaningful ways. It is absolutely 100% more than just visual flair.

HDR is also very impactful and absolutely affects a game.

Why are you people so against having things be better. Like it's just baffling. How can you have it explained in so many ways, so many times, shown in so many situations and not see how any of this affects gameplay. My mind BOGGLES.

Click to shrink...

Honest question; how does it affect gameplay? Maybe you can see an enemy sneaking up on you in a reflection, or their pink jacket shines a little on a rock from around a corner? That could be done with rasterisation and I would hardly think it's worth it.

The issue is that the ROI seems really, and I mean minutely small.

 

[Tiny Chihuahueño]

As long as it's used just for reflections it'll be perceived as a very underwhelming technology, but I believe the full fat raytraced global illumination is a major step up compared to what we have now

 

[Exile20]

Ray tracing in all of its many forms absolutely affects gameplay in many meaningful ways. It is absolutely 100% more than just visual flair.

HDR is also very impactful and absolutely affects a game.

Why are you people so against having things be better. Like it's just baffling. How can you have it explained in so many ways, so many times, shown in so many situations and not see how any of this affects gameplay. My mind BOGGLES.

Click to shrink...

Yet you give no examples? At least give examples of how HDR and RT affects gameplay in any meaningful way.

 

[Terbinator]

Has anyone got a high quality capture of that WD Legion part with the glass building and RTX on/off.

 

[Nooblet]

That is just not the case.

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Tbh I agree, I never found Control's approach to be game changing. Outside of Minecraft and Quake, Control and Fortnite are the two most feature complete RT game out there and neither of them have an aesthetic that lends particularly well to showing of those effects so that it's immediately apparent while playing, even without side by side comparison. You notice it at start when you're looking for it, but it kind of just disappears from your head after a while.

I have a 3080 so I have it turned on, but outside of reflections the differences are really subtle to be noticed without side by side comparisons. For instance the RTGI it uses is an extension of their existing GI solution which is similar to SVOGI and SVOGI is pretty damn accurate to begin with. Yes the RTGI makes it more accurate so that there's less light bleeding and less banding but it doesn't change the look of the game to a significant degree like it does in Metro Exodus....now that is what I consider game changing.

I'd argue and say that debris shadows in Control is a more noticeable RT effect than the RTGI and RT contact shadows as you don't need a side by side comparison for the differences to really pop. But even then I feel it's one game where despite having so many RT features it doesn't do as much to the game, then you look at something like Watch Dogs which only does RT reflections but there's a night and day difference between RT and non RT in that game. A lot of this is to do with the aesthetic of the game itself and how the assets were designed in the first place.